CV Rework Discussion

[Procrastes]

Wargaming has stated that the reason why only tier X matchmaking is affected by the latest change, which makes battles with more than one carrier per team occur less frequently, is that a) carriers are becoming more popular at lower tiers, and b) carriers have an "overall weaker influence" on the outcome of battles on those tiers.

 

If that last part is true, it says perhaps more about the power of the Midway and the Hakuryu, than it does about their lower-tier brethren. I just spent a whole battle in a fully AA-specced Nürnberg, being hounded by both enemy carriers. One was a Furious and the other a Lexington, and I can't really say anything about getting the short end of the stick with that kind of firepower directed at me.* But what I can say, is that those carriers had anything but a weak influence on the outcome of that battle. And this is far from the first instance where I have seen this effect, when there have been two carriers per team in a mid-tier battle. I don't question that a carrier's influence may be weaker at the middle tiers than at tier X, but that doesn't mean it's "weak" in a more general sense.

 

In short, I still stand by the point I made in post no. 1941 above, namely that carriers tend to dominate the battle a bit too much, when there are two or more of them on each team. This holds true at least up to tiers VI and VIII, and I will take Wargaming's word on that it gets even more pronounced at tier X. My impression this far, is that the overall gameplay suffers when there are more than one carrier on each team. In other words, I believe that the game would benefit from having this latest carrier matchmaking tweak apply to all tiers, and not just to tier X. Whether this could be implemented without having too severe negative effects on the queuing times for carrier players, however, I really can't say.

 

* In fact, I am somewhat satisfied with having shot down as many as fourteen of their planes, before they sent me to the bottom.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

I was okay with the new carriers when their numbers died out a bit, but this new influx has me grinding my teeth. My hate for them seems to be unrelated to how well or bad I 'play' (against) them. I just don't like having them this often in my games. And I don't like playing them much, even though they were designed for chumps like me.

 

My final verdict on the CV rework: failed. The main reason: the game as a whole has become less fun because of it.

[Too4sfull]

CV simply isn't meant for this game. That's my opinion. I play WoT as well and I feel it's the same about the arty. Majority of people hate it and I cannot understand why they constantly try to push these classes even though it's obvious most people would simply like to see bloody things go away. That is all I have to say on this topic.

 

P.S. I have all the respect for great CV players because unlike Arty in WoT it actually requires skill (I'm talking about the game before the rework). But I still firmly believe these ships don't belong in this game.  WG should consider creating a new game based on the old CV play, and maybe that could work well for the people who enjoy playing it.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

CV are in game and they are not going anywhere, because the cost would be too high.

 

A large number of individuals of WG employees have too much at stake with regards to CV, and even if they were the worst thing to hit this game, they would never admit it for fear of the consequences: hundreds of thousand of many hours man hours of work, four years, plus loads of cash to produce a failure? Admitting the mistake would never happen, instead they will claim victory (It works more or less) and blame any 'issues' on the player base. "Overconfidence".

[makhot]

21 hours ago, Asakka said:

Maybe WG could test a new game mode of splitting random matches to normal and Non-DD randoms.

I mostly don't even play DD's. Beside my comment was a joke referring to the general opinion towards CV's.

 

Every other class interaction in game is fairly direct and each has a counter play. CV's are completely asymmetric and can keep continuously harassing you, while staying completely immune to any counter play for 99% of the time. TX CV's can scout nearly everything and they almost completely REMOVE the concealment game mechanic from the matches in which they are present. All other classes more or less follow rock-paper-scissor principle and playing vs each other feels fair. CV's only feel unfair. They are broken by the very founding principle (asymmetry).

 

Of course some traditional match-ups can be frustrating e.g. when you face Donskoi and a double Cleveland division with your Flint, but so what. Facing those same opponents e.g. with Lyon would be fine, and I wouldn't change a thing. CVs on the contrary are only frustrating, often they are not dominating a match, but even at the best case they subtract from the overall experience due to spotting and asymmetry, not adding to it. Variations of DD's, CL/CA's and BB's with their different match-ups, each and every of them add diversity to the game and improve game the experience.

 

I was very wishful for CV rework to fix the CV skill gap/dominance to match outcome issues, which it partially did too at least. However it also made the spotting issue even worse and now there are much more CV's in the game than before. On overall in my personal experience things are now worse. Previously the rarely faced CV's strongly dictated the outcome of the few matches in which they were present. Now the fairly common CV's make my experience in many matches worse.

 

CV's before: Totally ruining matches, but very rarely.

CV's now: Quite often making game experience anything from slightly to much worse.

 

 

[Toivia]

5 hours ago, makhot said:

snip

Very well put.

[barisba]

On 9/4/2018 at 9:34 PM, Pikkozoikum said:

All what you're mentioning is that, why a Carrier has so much impact and is so strong. With multiple squads a CV is able to spot all dds. That's very frustrating for other players. Also cross dropping is pretty op, it deletes ships with one engage. Not fair. With the new system it's kinda fair for CV and for other ships.

If you like the RTS style more, well, that's bad for you ;)

But I'm convincend, then I know the issues with the CV from the CV side and from the side of others ship and those will get solved with the rework. That's why I'm kinda hyped

 

It's of course not a simulator, it's an arcade game. A simulation is something compelete different

You are totally wrong NOW, as everyone see how it works...

 

-"a Carrier has so much impact and is so strong"

No it wasn't at all. If there is a Des Moines, Minotaur, Worcester, Montana, Republique, Zao, Henri in the enemy team, it was VERY difficult to sink them. I remember well because I played with my old Hakuryu many times. I often requested Desmo or Mino to be sunk by my teammates. Because it was too difficult to sink them without aim of my team. So, many ships had strong AA.

 

-"With multiple squads a CV is able to spot all dds."
LOL. What changed now? It is even worse now by spotting a CV endlessly with ultra-speed planes. Especially rocket planes are f*cking fast and even if a destroyer destroys all the planes, CV can drop there fighter planes. But before, If you split your "multiple squads" in order to spot all dds (your claim = all dds are under thread) then the planes would be weak. So it was easy to break that danger. Now it is almost impossible to escape from a CV. I say that because even with Z52, it is difficult now.

(Few days ago, I was playing with Z52 and I destroyed +30 planes, YET the Midway sink me. I couldn't give a remarkable damage to enemy.  And I really didn't enjoy with my time in the game. It was only spamming by Midway all the 20 minutes.)

 

"Also cross dropping is pretty op, it deletes ships with one engage."

If you don't know how to escape or maneuver, then you would sink... This system was forcing all the ships move together which is suppose to be. If you leave your team you would be a prey. This is very normal. Only a person who do not have enough courage may complain about this.

In the other hand, now it is very difficult to sink a destroyer or cruiser by torpedo planes (Especially with Hakuryu). If your team sucks, a CV can not save the game any longer! Before, when most of the ally ships were sunk, I would still destroy 5~6 ships by myself. This was an epic struggle for both sides. An alone CV vs a group of ships. It was epic. Now there is no enthusiasm in the game because the balance is broken.

 

Plus: cross dropping was not fatal always If the ships could use damage control, repair etc. It was all about strategy. Now there is no meaning, no excitement no need for skills and knowledge...

 

[JimmyThePirate]

18 hours ago, makhot said:

I mostly don't even play DD's. Beside my comment was a joke referring to the general opinion towards CV's.

 

Every other class interaction in game is fairly direct and each has a counter play. CV's are completely asymmetric and can keep continuously harassing you, while staying completely immune to any counter play for 99% of the time. TX CV's can scout nearly everything and they almost completely REMOVE the concealment game mechanic from the matches in which they are present. All other classes more or less follow rock-paper-scissor principle and playing vs each other feels fair. CV's only feel unfair. They are broken by the very founding principle (asymmetry).

 

Of course some traditional match-ups can be frustrating e.g. when you face Donskoi and a double Cleveland division with your Flint, but so what. Facing those same opponents e.g. with Lyon would be fine, and I wouldn't change a thing. CVs on the contrary are only frustrating, often they are not dominating a match, but even at the best case they subtract from the overall experience due to spotting and asymmetry, not adding to it. Variations of DD's, CL/CA's and BB's with their different match-ups, each and every of them add diversity to the game and improve game the experience.

 

I was very wishful for CV rework to fix the CV skill gap/dominance to match outcome issues, which it partially did too at least. However it also made the spotting issue even worse and now there are much more CV's in the game than before. On overall in my personal experience things are now worse. Previously the rarely faced CV's strongly dictated the outcome of the few matches in which they were present. Now the fairly common CV's make my experience in many matches worse.

 

CV's before: Totally ruining matches, but very rarely.

CV's now: Quite often making game experience anything from slightly to much worse.

 

 

I agree with you. Took a break right before the CV rework came out, since I knew it was going to require some tweaking. Now that I am back and played a few matches against CVs I must say that I am not impressed with how it has turned out so far.

 

Damage wise I don't think the CVs are that bad, and I do like how AA has a bit more to it now, but CVs just seem to have to many perks that other ships simply don't have.

 

I'm not a fan that all ships have a "start" up time to get moving at the beginning of the match, whereas planes can have a squadron on a cap before my battleship can even get max speed.

 

I don't like how a ship spotting a ship puts you within their gun/torp range, but planes can skirt around and spot ships without being able to get shot back.

 

Resetting a cap with planes is crap when shooting them down does nothing for a teams score. Its even worse that damaging and eventually destroying a ship rewards points, but damaging and destroying planes does not.

 

CVs getting to attack from anywhere to anywhere without any penalties (besides taking a bit longer to get there) kind of sucks. Even the most accurate battleships have terrible accuracy at longer ranges.

 

All that aside, I think the worst part of the rework is that it is still black and white when attacking ships with planes. Just like before, if you have enough AA you can hold off an attack, not enough and your free food. From the ships I've played, I have yet to find one in the middle that can hurt an attack run, but not completely blow it out of the sky... and I don't like the idea of "Well, just stick close to your allies", that promotes poor game play, isn't always feasible, and is like saying that BBs don't have to worry about DDs because they can just stick close to their radar cruisers the whole game.

[cato190]

Guys at WG!

 

I didnt play 40days.

I came back, maybe.............

I know there is so much energy and time in this cv patch, but u DONT WANT to understand this killed the game...

Now if i play with dd, and there are 4 cvs, i say good bye that match. And i dont care how many minus and warning get.

Or just say good bye forever. 

In my clan we lose 9 good men (who spent a lot on this game), who quit and uninstall.

 

THX Wg

[FluffyCheeks]

Seems there are a lot of people who are long term customers, who now spend a lot less time playing this game than they did before... our clans have seen a drastic reduction in player 'stick' times..... friday evening used to be a long session for me.... I logged on played a few games each one had 2 CV each team.... each game was bottom tier pinata for said CV's.... bailed out and went to watch Netflix.... this is a regular occurrence now.... just a bit miffed that WG 'conned' me into buying a 1 year premium package... weeks before this abortion of a rework..... As a prolific premium ship collector and a 100% premium time buyer.... surely they must know from a financial perspective that they are driving away a chunk of their hardcore, long term customers and this will bite them in the backside further down the line.

 

One sensible option and a very solid 'straw poll' would be to BETA a one month patch that gives the option to play in a CV / Non CV battle.... the stats gained would answer once and for all the perenial question of whether their customers prefer to play a WARSHIPS game with or without Aircraft Carriers......

 

Dunno maybe I will get banned for mentioning it... funny that boris has been conspicuous in his absence since dumping all the CV stuff here to die and banning nay sayers......

[Arrive_Alive]

2 hours ago, FluffyCheeks said:

 As a prolific premium ship collector and a 100% premium time buyer.... surely they must know from a financial perspective that they are driving away a chunk of their hardcore, long term customers and this will bite them in the backside further down the line.

.

First they need to sell their premium CVs to the whales. 

[rage1750]

Played some games today, very few of them were free of sky cancer / flying ebola.

 

At least ranked is currently free of this rubbish.  

[ArmasP]

I kinda like cv´s to be honest. I was a dd player but sucked so changed to cruisers and sucked in them too. Took some bb lines and tought they were ok.

 

I try to play every class and enjoy different ships. I think that cv gives u a nice change of pace and u need to learn something a bit different playing them. 

 

I tried Furious and hated it at first but when u got some damage done i kinda liked the play. Now im testing the Ranger and Probably go for the Lexinton.

 

For the casual player cvs can do moderate damage  and be a little pest who nibbles damage from where he can. I rarely focus just dd´s because u give your overall damage away. Just spot a little, use fighter to protect ships and take good opportunities where i can find them.

 

One CV per side in the battle should be enought. Two is just overkill and spoils the dd gameplay somewhat.

 

I think that the overall gameplay suffers more on the radar buffs and the likes of Stalingrads in the game than noob cv players.....  IMO.

 

Just my two cents, 

 

ArmasP

 

 

[Solstad1069]

I dont understand why they are so poorly balanced. You have the tier 4s that are basicly useless. Most of the time they fill up the bottom of the XP list.
Then you get the tier 6 aircraftcarriers that are pretty strong. Worst part playing your tier 7 BB is that 3/4 battles are with 2x tier 8 CVs that sends a wall of torpedoes against you.
And they are most of the time top on XP, they go from tier 4 useless to tier 8 totally OP.

 

For the record i dont play higher than tier 7 so i guess its even worse at tier 10.

 

What should WG do, first reduce them to 1 per game. We dont need 2 of them in a game, then everything gets focused around staying close to create a AA bubble.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

So, I had a shitty day in my Grozovoi (check the below average column which is an indication how much fun I was having). As you can see I am not an overall awesome player, just good to sometimes great in general. I'm nothing special. I took it upon myself to join the CV bandwagon and play carrier for a day. And look at what happened. Apparantly I'm a CV superunicum in in my Ranger now. What the actual..... what?!? I am supposed to be a carrier noob and proud of it.

 

 

My numbers are in random matches - solo only. Ugh...

This tells me the rework was a great success in the accessibility department. Did I have lots of fun? Meh. I mainly felt dirty.

[Arrive_Alive]

18 minutes ago, Solstad1069 said:

I dont understand why they are so poorly balanced. You have the tier 4s that are basicly useless. Most of the time they fill up the bottom of the XP list.
Then you get the tier 6 aircraftcarriers that are pretty strong. Worst part playing your tier 7 BB is that 3/4 battles are with 2x tier 8 CVs that sends a wall of torpedoes against you.
And they are most of the time top on XP, they go from tier 4 useless to tier 8 totally OP.

 

For the record i dont play higher than tier 7 so i guess its even worse at tier 10.

 

What should WG do, first reduce them to 1 per game. We dont need 2 of them in a game, then everything gets focused around staying close to create a AA bubble.

Only the best players play CVs. That's why they're usually in top3 XP 

/s

 

I'm sure the 1 CV cap will come at some point. If i remember correctly, one of their goals of this rework was "having 3 CVs in a game is just like having 3 BBs in a game". Yeah....

[powerverde]

When are carriers removed from the game?

[Daskaren]

Just remove the crap, there is not a single game that is improved by having a CV in it.

It's just a boring experience...

[Shatricor]

again the same noob flammers who cry "OP CV nerf it remove it " Now CVs are here and the AA is over the top broken OP no skill needed especcially on DDs. AA is made so noob friendly that an TIER 8 DD can WRECK TIER X FULL SPECCED 19 POINT CVs !!!!

Thte same with fire and HE MADE FOR NOOOBS

 

 

BUT NOW THE STATE OF GAME BALANCING IS NOW WORSDE THAN PRE RELEASE!!!!

 

EDIT OR MORE UNREALISTIC AA FIRE GOING THROUGH ISLANDS WTF

[powerverde]

59 minutes ago, Shatricor said:

again the same noob flammers who cry "OP CV nerf it remove it " Now CVs are here and the AA is over the top broken OP no skill needed especcially on DDs. AA is made so noob friendly that an TIER 8 DD can WRECK TIER X FULL SPECCED 19 POINT CVs !!!!

Thte same with fire and HE MADE FOR NOOOBS

 

 

BUT NOW THE STATE OF GAME BALANCING IS NOW WORSDE THAN PRE RELEASE!!!!

 

EDIT OR MORE UNREALISTIC AA FIRE GOING THROUGH ISLANDS WTF

If u played the game, you'd know how annoying it is to be perma-spotted and perma-on-fire because of these cvs...

[Beaker71]

Had some real nasty tier X battles today, all with CV, all with the better CV player having a massive influence - whether due to weak vs poor AA is difficult to tell when you're in a DD weaving. But when an opposition tier 8 CV comes top by miles in a mostly tier 10 game it's not a good sign (well it was for them!). If you're in a "not good" team, the CVs influence goes up exponentially 

[RedV]

Just a small warning for developers: 

 

If you do not fix CV play and rebalance the game you will loose large amount of players soon.

 

Self controlled planes against bot controlled AA's. This logic may sink the game. If you do not agree, check the experiences of other online war games which has gone bankrupt after such changes in gameplay despite the player opinion.

[swaffeltje]

This game is getting killed by the matchmaker for me. i just played 4 double cv games in a row! with t8 AA spec cruisers in all 4 of those games ,i still get totally owned by planes in every game. This rework changed the game into a look at the sky simulator. Im so sad about the state the game is in right now. some nice ship vs ship gameplay is totally killed by at least 1 of the 2 cv's trying to drop you at any point. Using armor and angle of the ship doesnt mean anything anymore when a cv can just torp you from the side over and over. The fact that its close to impossible to run them out of planes makes this extremely frustrating. Cant belief im saying this but i want the old cv's back. At least they could be punished by staying over a target and losing planes.  I play wows since closed beta and loved the game in its old state, sadly im playing less and less since the rework and im sad about that. 

[powerverde]

59 minutes ago, swaffeltje said:

I play wows since beta test

this is still in beta :O

[Solstad1069]

Agree, when i play my Lyon battleship most of the times there are 2xtier 8 CVs on the enemy team and then all focus turnes from ship vs ship to looking at the sky.
Then you try to keep up with a couple a Cruiser for AA help, but do you think they actually care when you get attacked, no they just sail on leaving you dead in the water.