CV Rework Discussion

[xxNihilanxx]

11 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

We had a system which needed some changes/fixes/adjustments. And it would be ready to go. They didnt need couple of years to develop this crap. They had to work with the already functioning system. Besides they had sh.t ton of suggestions about RTS CVs. So, it would have been a lot eaaier for WG and game situation would be a lot better than now.

People started to play on chinese server.  That alone should be able to give you an idea about how awful the rework is. Before 8.0 i didnt hear anything about chinese server. 

 

The issue with the RTS CV was that the result of a team based match was solely decided by the CV players in nearly all cases whenever they were present. This rendered the efforts of the other 22 players in the match mostly irrelevant. That can never be allowed to return.

[ghostbuster_]

3 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

 

The issue with the RTS CV was that the result of a team based match was solely decided by the CV players in nearly all cases whenever they were present. This rendered the efforts of the other 22 players in the match mostly irrelevant. That can never be allowed to return.

it was if other people didnt play like its a CV battle. otherwise even the best CV player didnt have anything to do. 

[xxNihilanxx]

5 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

it was if other people didnt play like its a CV battle. otherwise even the best CV player didnt have anything to do. 

 

So the good CV player couldn't spot the caps while the bad one sent his group of planes around the map edge thus enabling the good CV player's DDs to secure all caps and ensure the bad CV player's DD could never get anywhere near them? AA cruisers couldn't get close enough to support DDs as they would get spotted by enemy DDs and blapped by that team's BBs.

 

I always played differently when CVs were in game but it never once stopped the match playing out exactly as described above.

 

The ONLY exception came when the stars aligned and the bad CV player had a unicum team and the good CV player had a team of total potatoes. Those matches were incredibly rare. Like total solar eclipse rare.

[ghostbuster_]

9 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

A system that even after it would've been fixed would probably never attract more than 5% of the playerbase. But, we had the discussion on why the RTS system w/couldn't be salvaged a few times by now. In short: WG never wanted to keep it. Plain and simple.

 

 

well new system made many dedicated CV or non-CV players stop the game. some of them plays only CBs. some players changed to chinese server despite having high ping. this is how successful the rework is...  no need to mention how broken the new CV mechanic is. (it has been explained 100 times why it is more broken than the RTS ones.) new CVs have literally no counter play because fighter management was obviously like a rocket science for players who tried to game while tasting some glue. AA got a lot weaker aswell. Def AA is is also kinda useless right now.  on the other hand RTS CVs had a stable playerbase and they actually had a counterplay. the only problem with those was that the mechanic wasnt the best for console gameplay. and here we go. we have this crap mechanic which is suitable to console. 

 

it could btw. all the reasons WG gave about the rework could be solved while keeping RTS. so many suggestions were made and some of them actually were aimed right to solve the "problems" wg listed us. except "removing the skill gap". this is just dumb. skill cap can NEVER be a problem in a PvP game. in a PvP game there are good players and bad ones. good ones dominate the bad ones. simple as that. 

 

for example. so many dedicated cv players suggested to remove AP bombs which would kinda solve high alpha damage problem. but yeah WG was busy with playing dummy / blind and the deaf. 

 

[1MajorKoenig]

38 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

Aand he keeps blowing minds...

 

Youarewelcomeyouarewelcome

[Allied_Winter]

2 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

skill cap can NEVER be a problem in a PvP game. in a PvP game there are good players and bad ones. good ones dominate the bad ones. simple as that. 

That all depends what your target audience is. If you live by an audience that doesn't want to invest time into learning skills (much like ... don't know ... candy crush), then ANY skill gap becomes a noticeable problem.

 

But ... we're just running in circles: RTS CVs have been removed. I'm sure WG accepted the fact that quite a few players either stopped completely or wandered of to the chinese server. You can't make everybody happy. As pointed out further up, I'm happy that the RTS CVs are gone. 

 

And I'm sure if WG would've listened to Fara that there would've come something forward that would've worked. It's just: WG doesn't want to. Simple as that.

[Uglesett]

25 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

To which my standard answer would be: That's live ... 

While you may not care whether or not WG tanks, I'm sure there are several people employed by them that do (or at least should). And they are the ones I'm sort of trying to reach...

 

Depends. If they are of the same idealistic sort than me (rather driving a business to the ground because I decide how I run my business) than listening to the customers ...

No, it does not "depend". The important part is still to listen to their customers. Not doing so doesn't make some idealistic hero, it just makes a bad businessman. Which is not something to brag about.

 

Also, I think the premium store and the events over the years demonstrate thoroughly that idealism is not their driving motivation.

[ghostbuster_]

5 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

 

So the good CV player couldn't spot the caps while the bad one sent his group of planes around the map edge thus enabling the good CV player's DDs to secure all caps and ensure the bad CV player's DD could never get anywhere near them? AA cruisers couldn't get close enough to support DDs as they would get spotted by enemy DDs and blapped by that team's BBs.

 

I always played differently when CVs were in game but it never once stopped the match playing out exactly as described above.

 

The ONLY exception came when the stars aligned and the bad CV player had a unicum team and the good CV player had a team of total potatoes. Those matches were incredibly rare. Like total solar eclipse rare.

and what is different right now tell me? now potato cv chases other cvs planes to drop some useless fighters. loses so much time with doing that. good cv goes and keeps dd perma spotted or any other ship perma spotted. blaps the DD. and keep harresing other ships non-stop. drop fighters to different locations so enemy can stay spotted. its still THE SAME. the only thing is new CVs can spot even better that the old onces. AA ranges got nerfed. there no more aa ships poping up from 7.2 km and shooting down all your planes. 

[xxNihilanxx]

4 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

and what is different right now tell me? now potato cv chases other cvs planes to drop some useless fighters. loses so much time with doing that. good cv goes and keeps dd perma spotted or any other ship perma spotted. blaps the DD. and keep harresing other ships non-stop. drop fighters to different locations so enemy can stay spotted. its still THE SAME. the only thing is new CVs can spot even better that the old onces. AA ranges got nerfed. there no more aa ships poping up from 7.2 km and shooting down all your planes. 

 

No argument from me on that score. So we went from terrible to even worse. This is not an argument in favour of returning to the "terrible". This is why I advocate the removal of aircraft because I prefer to move from the terrible to the better. There are, and always have been, matches where no CVs were present. In those matches NONE of the issues described above rear their ugly heads.

[mcboernester]

13 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

The issue with the RTS CV was that the result of a team based match was solely decided by the CV players in nearly all cases whenever they were present. This rendered the efforts of the other 22 players in the match mostly irrelevant. That can never be allowed to return.

Well now unicum CV players have no more counter on the other side which allows them to perform an absurd damage race against the clock. I can't really see any improvement here, more like the opposite. 

 

You can even see it in players results. The PR for good cv players is far higher nowadays then with the RTS system while on the opposite side of the list the results have gotten far worse. there's even a haku player whith < 3k average damage. how exactly would it be better to have this guy on your team while having a unicum on the other side?

 

it's gotten way more absurd than with RTS and many players already called their "f*** this" on it and left the game, resulting in those horrible matches most players got over the last couple of weeks since alot of those who are left in the game are barely able to breathe , left alone to command a warship. Whoever played KotS or the test CB season will tell you that this class is as far away from being well integrated in the game as it gets. 

[Allied_Winter]

4 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

And they are the ones I'm sort of trying to reach...

 

Fair enough. Good luck with that!

 

5 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

it just makes a bad businessman

There's a reason I'll never be a businessman of any sorts. 

 

6 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

thoroughly that idealism is not their driving motivation

True. I guess Fara worded it best: If suggestions come along that go in the same direction that WG was already thinking, they are happy to implement it. But if suggestions go another way, they are ignored. The thing is: Who am I to judge if that's the right thing to do or not.

 

3 minutes ago, mcboernester said:

I can't really see any improvement here, more like the opposite.

Less Unicums? I discussed it yesterday with El2aZer. Basically WG substituted a class where a bad player wouldn't come over ... let's say 20k average DMG whereas a good (not unicum) player would consistently get 60k and above.

 

Now we have a CV class where even bad player can do something (e.g. like getting 35k average DMG) but the good players have to work really really hard (unicum levels) to exceed 45k DMG.

 

At least that's how I feeling the recieving end of CVs to be. Sure you get the occasional unicum, but overall I fear less the enemy on my team to be super bad and more the enemy teams CV to be an unicum. And in most cases I can more or less safely ignore both CVs.

 

[Uglesett]

1 minute ago, Allied_Winter said:

The thing is: Who am I to judge if that's the right thing to do or not.

Funnily enough, they have a framework in place to poll their user base and help them decide what may or may not be the right thing to do....

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

True. I guess Fara worded it best: If suggestions come along that go in the same direction that WG was already thinking, they are happy to implement it. But if suggestions go another way, they are ignored. The thing is: Who am I to judge if that's the right thing to do or not.

Why should a Developer implement something, that he doesn't like? Of course it's a good idea to listen to the customer, but if there are 100k Customer with plenty of different ideas, then they will of course "ignore" some ideas. Many people were against the CV rework, many were for the rework. So they have no choice to ignore at least one of the ideas.

[xxNihilanxx]

2 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

Funnily enough, they have a framework in place to poll their user base and help them decide what may or may not be the right thing to do....

 

Time for a CVs  In/Out referendum!

 

The only problem I see with that is the fact that CVexit is a damned mouthful to pronounce. (CuhVexit? SeeVexit?)

[Allied_Winter]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Many people were against the CV rework, many were for the rework. So they have no choice to ignore at least one of the ideas

Precisely the point I see as the core. And as long as we don't know the number of actual players that were against the rework, we can't really discuss about anything meaningful.

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Why should a Developer implement something, that he doesn't like? Of course it's a good idea to listen to the customer, but if there are 100k Customer with plenty of different ideas, then they will of course "ignore" some ideas. Many people were against the CV rework, many were for the rework. So they have no choice to ignore at least one of the ideas.

Because your boss says so, unless you want your head to get acquainted with quarterly financial report freshly used to bash your superior or you're willing to part ways with quarterly bonus

Speaking of finances, question for WG staff @MrConway @Crysantos @Sehales

 

1st and 2nd Directives have missions for Boise/Nueve de Julio with accompanying rent offer in premium store, while 3rd and 4th batch of Directives have mission for premium CVs. Does that mean option to rent them will arrive to the premium store?

[El2aZeR]

22 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

Time for a CVs  In/Out referendum!

 

Come on, you know that will never happen because if nothing else WG doesn't like to hand back the money we spent.

So your only realistic choice is to go for the lesser evil. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(And who knows, maybe with the improvements suggested over the years it won't become as unbearable as before but hah, WG listening to CV players, who am I kidding?)

 

34 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

Now we have a CV class where even bad player can do something (e.g. like getting 35k average DMG) but the good players have to work really really hard (unicum levels) to exceed 45k DMG.

 

Again I disagree. In my experience bad CV players actually do even less than before.

The only real difference is that he does not get shut down by the unicum CV player. He shuts himself down by being incapable of comprehending the ancient art of WASD. Or aiming.

 

This is quite easily proven by the various screenshots floating around this forum showing ships with pathetic AA being able to kill hilarious amounts of aircraft.

[mcboernester]

45 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

Now we have a CV class where even bad player can do something (e.g. like getting 35k average DMG) but the good players have to work really really hard (unicum levels) to exceed 45k DMG.

Actually players who where able to get 40k before are now struggling to get 20k. just sort the old and new haku / midway results, it will show you the opposite from what you just stated. I can't really tell what exactly fired up the idea that bad players can do more now but it's just bs, sry. tomatoes fail even harder now since autodrops are gone, so it's pretty logical to me at least. 

[Allied_Winter]

10 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Again I disagree. In my experience bad CV players actually do even less than before.

Hmmm maybe you're right. Maybe WG just made it harder for Unicums to exceed (by widening the skill gap) and thus (from my point of view) I see less unicums dominating the other side.

 

Bottom line still stands: In the right ship I don't have to care about either CV ... and I can happily enjoy my flak bursts shooting down stuff.

 

1 minute ago, mcboernester said:

I can't really tell what exactly fired up the idea that bad players can do more now but it's just bs

It was mostly the idea pointed out above: I have to care less about either CV (be it on the enemy team or the friendly one), thus I made the - probably false, at least wonky - conclusion that there were less Unicum vs. Bad player matchups. Instead more balanced setups (in which both CVs ended up somewhere in the second half of the team list. Everybody can do something, but almost nobody can exceed a certain number.

[xxNihilanxx]

4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Come on, you know that will never happen because if nothing else WG doesn't like to hand back the money we spent.

So your only realistic choice is to go for the lesser evil. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(And who knows, maybe with the improvements suggested over the years it won't become as unbearable as before but hah, WG listening to CV players, who am I kidding?)

 

True. King Cnut (and I mean the historical figure - not a veiled reference to Beastofwar designed to bypass the profanity filter) had more chance of getting the tide to stop coming in than we have of getting WG to listen to us, but who doesn't enjoy shouting at the wind?

 

 

 

(Aaaaaand that's another two minutes of my life lost to watching dancing girls)

[Uglesett]

3 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

Bottom line still stands: In the right ship I don't have to care about either CV

Erm, that was even more true in the RTS era, though 

[El2aZeR]

4 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

(Aaaaaand that's another two minutes of my life lost to watching dancing girls)

 

Why do you think I keep posting?

 

 

[Allied_Winter]

2 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

that was even more true in the RTS era, though

Not my perception. Multiple squads that could actually do meaningfull damage vs. now: One squad that can only come from one direction at a time and does in most cases very little damage. Pre rework I had to decide: Turn in and NOT eat a bunch of CV torps but risk my broadside or risk eating CV torps, but hopefully no flooding.

 

Simply setting the Zoning and make sure you switch it at the right time (if only we could abort the rezoning and it'd fall immediately back to the previously selected zoning).

[antean]

11 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

as we don't know the number of actual players that were against the rework

This number is likely unknown even to WoWS. The players who comment on the Forum against the CV rework are certainly in the majority. Two threads that I, personally, polled were overwhelmingly against the rework. Naturally, this is a small number of dedicated players who frequent the Forum.

As to why the real number, Allied_Winter, is likely unknown is because some players will have quit WoWS EU &/or NA and maybe some went to the China Server or they just quit as a result of the rework. How can WoWS distinguish the reason why a player quits the game? The only way is by those who send a ticket into Customer Support about this very issue.

As to the argument for & against the CV rework let me review CV history in the game.

Alpha Testing: I don't know this history but, apparently, the good RTS CV players  exploited advantages and this is where the problem first began. Am I correct in this assertion?

 (note: I fluked into Alpha testing in NA but I did not play CVs then)

Beta Testing: As far as I recall there was already vorciferous anti-CV hate by then and the big argument was that CVs were OP especially in the hands of unicum players.

 (note: I was starting out in CVs myself by then tho I was in no way a unicum CV player (still am not, lol).

RTS CV style of play: What was this? 3 years of play? The continual anti-CV haters whining (as usual) and the continuing argument that CVs were either broken or OP yet the game, in general, became quite well balanced. I believe most reasonable players will agree. Sure, unicum players will/would have done better but they always do better simply because they are better! Duh!!!

Reworked CV play: Now we have some players who like the new CV play and some players who do not like it (I, clearly, from my Forum comments do not like the new CV play). So, as some point out, WoWS has some unhappy campers because you can't have everyone satisfied. The unfortunate problems with the new CV rework are myriad: 1) The odd tier CVs are missing? What?!  2) Serious balance issues due to up to 2 tier differences in battles. 3) Continuing other ship class balancing/ Cpt repecs/etc all due to poorly designed reworked CV play to begin with. 4) No real CV vs CV play nor 'proper' CV movement. 5) Have I forgotten anything else? I'm sure I have. I'm also sure I have't described the problems as well as others either.

Bottom line:  The reworked CV play is an abysmal failure as a design. Even the pro-CV rework crowd has to acknowledge this obvious fact. And, of course, there is still anti-CV whining still going on. That will never end. I question the wisdom of WoWS  Developers spending 4+ years of designing and implementing 'RTS' CV play and then, for whatever reason, WoWS Management decides to radically alter CV play. It sure wasn't the Developers - they just do what management tells them to do. Was the CV rework to accommodate the potential Console player crowd? This appears to be the real rationale for the rework. Has that worked? Has there been a big jump in player numbers? Has WG (WoWS department) made enough money to make this whole project worth it? Who knows? Will WG tell us?

Conclusion: I regret that players will quit a decent game, however, if WoWS makes the game worse then I can understand why some will quit. My opinion is that WoWS has made the game worse with this CV rework. My response is that I will never play the, imho, FARCE reworked CVs (I sold all my NA CVs) and, furthermore, my Wallet is now closed* (until the old RTS CVs are returned).

* exception would be if WoWS sold a dedicated clan flag slot - I'd buy that (lol). (shameless plug for that little addition)

[Uglesett]

59 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

Time for a CVs  In/Out referendum!

 

The only problem I see with that is the fact that CVexit is a damned mouthful to pronounce. (CuhVexit? SeeVexit?)

"Cexit"

 

(Pick ancient latin "c" sound or modern latin "c" sound depending on whether you want it to sound naughty or not)