CV Rework Discussion

[ghostbuster_]

14 ore fa, Pikkozoikum ha scritto:

There is always a better player. Nothing to with to "dumb". I guess I would beat most of the CV players, but every unicum would beat me in general. And when one CV is winning over the other one, the team is more or less helpless (beside aa bubbles). But doesn't matter, the rework will come, it's about to improve it, and not to deny it

ofc there is always a better player and that should make difference. if i face a worse dd player in my dd. i kill him or i dont give the cap. if i face a worse bb than me in my bb, i outplay him. but with new cv gameplay if i face a far worse cv player than me, *edited* i dont have freaking fighters anymore. this bothers me. keeo the new gameplay if you want but give a second squadron which is gonna be fighters, and let people control both. so a better player can have a chance to deny enemy cv.

edit: how do you feel if you get 2 div from same clan in opponent teams and they dont focus eachother at all? its an extreme example but it is possible to happen. so this is callled rigging. this new cv gameplay is riggeed by default. they do not touch eachother and just try to farm damage on other players.

[Pikkozoikum]

14 ore fa, El2aZeR ha scritto:

 

Currently Haku AP bombs have an alpha strike of 9600. A single attack with 3 citadel hits can thus yield 28800 damage. They also have a far worse drop pattern so you're more likely to miss.

Midway HE bombs have an alpha strike of 15300, each DB also drops two bombs. A single attack with 6 penetrations thus can yield 30600 damage + pretty much guaranteed fires.

 

Both repair cooldown and DCP do not cycle fast enough to matter. If a BB doesn't use DCP and heal, fires will consume him before the final attack. If the BB does use DCP and heal, you'll have to deal with permanent fires and die regardless.

 

The only time when AP bombs are superior is when attacking CVs with an armored flight deck. HE bombs simply shatter on both Midway and Haku decks while AP bombs will at least score penetrations.

HE bombs do 100% of the damage?

And I guess there is also another mechanic. I did 29k damage with 2 citadels and one normal pen.

And don't know how, but once I got over 20k damage from AP bombs on Haku

 

14 ore fa, ghostbuster_ ha scritto:

ofc there is always a better player and that should make difference. if i face a worse dd player in my dd. i kill him or i dont give the cap. if i face a worse bb than me in my bb, i outplay him. but with new cv gameplay if i face a far worse cv player than me,*edited* i dont have freaking fighters anymore. this bothers me. keeo the new gameplay if you want but give a second squadron which is gonna be fighters, and let people control both. so a better player can have a chance to deny enemy cv.

You didn't got the argument. It's about the value of one ship. I make an example

 

 

There is a team of 5 people vs 5 other peoples

4 people have knives and one guy is in a tank

It doesn't matter how good the 4 knife people are, the tank is the winning condition, so the better tank will win the match

 

in this case the tank is the cv. It's generalized, so of course even a better CV player can lose a game, but I'm not talking about single cases

[ghostbuster_]

14 ore fa, Pikkozoikum ha scritto:

You didn't got the argument. It's about the value of one ship. I make an example

 

 

There is a team of 5 people vs 5 other peoples

4 people have knives and one guy is in a tank

It doesn't matter how good the 4 knife people are, the tank is the winning condition, so the better tank will win the match

 

in this case the tank is the cv. It's generalized, so of course even a better CV player can lose a game, but I'm not talking about single cases

ok from your example. in this new gameplay the cv is also a knife you claim, right? so the situation is: if the enemy cv *edited* one of your knife guys, you cant do sh.t about it in your cv. you can not stop that cv guy beating the crap out of your knife guy. so this is ok?

 

besides if the CVs are so OP right now, its easy to solve the problem. lower the alpha damage. let the CV hit 6-8 torps to sink one shima. set the flood and fire chance lower. there are so many solutions. fixing the problems we have right now is far away from being impossible.  EDIT:i forgot! like i have always said: remove the freaking AP bombs..

[Pikkozoikum]

14 ore fa, ghostbuster_ ha scritto:

ok from your example. in this new gameplay the cv is also a knife you claim, right? so the situation is: if the enemy cv*edited* one of your knife guys, you cant do sh.t about it in your cv. you can not stop that cv guy beating the crap out of your knife guy. so this is ok?

 

besides if the CVs are so OP right now, its easy to solve the problem. lower the alpha damage. let the CV hit 6-8 torps to sink one shima. set the flood and fire chance lower. there are so many solutions. fixing the problems we have right now is far away from being impossible.  EDIT:i forgot! like i have always said: remove the freaking AP bombs..

My example is speaking about the current version.

 

You also didn'T understand what the rework is about.

1. You're able to stop the CV, you can sent a Fighter Squad on important positions.

2. The huge issue is that the CV player is responsible for stopping the enemy CV, that means a good player stops the enemy easiyl, while the good player won't get stopped. So the solution is that it's not the job of the CV to 1on1 the other CV, it's the job between the players not depending on the ship type...

If a ship get attacked, then it's the job of the ship to "stop" the attack. With the rework dodging an attack is way easier then it is right now.

3. It's still not finsihed. Instead of complaining, you should give Wargaming good solutions, which doesn't lead to old issues. Right now you want that, which cause the problems.

[El2aZeR]

34 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

HE bombs do 100% of the damage?

 

Penetration damage is 33%, which with USN HE bombs is 5100. 5100 x 6 bombs dropped = 30600.

Double penetrations can occur with AP bombs just like with AP shells. Still, due to a lack of DoT they are vastly inferior.

[ghostbuster_]

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

My example is speaking about the current version.

 

You also didn'T understand what the rework is about.

1. You're able to stop the CV, you can sent a Fighter Squad on important positions.

2. The huge issue is that the CV player is responsible for stopping the enemy CV, that means a good player stops the enemy easiyl, while the good player won't get stopped. So the solution is that it's not the job of the CV to 1on1 the other CV, it's the job between the players not depending on the ship type...

If a ship get attacked, then it's the job of the ship to "stop" the attack. With the rework dodging an attack is way easier then it is right now.

3. It's still not finsihed. Instead of complaining, you should give Wargaming good solutions, which doesn't lead to old issues. Right now you want that, which cause the problems.

oh i totatlly understand and it is just wrong. a better player makes a difference in all classes. you can outplay enemy. but right now no matter how good you are in new cvs, you can not outplay enemy cv.

1-yes you can send few fighetrs which are controlled by AI and enemy can just fly around them. and those fighters dont stay long aswell. nice f.cking counter play right there...

2-this is where the skill matters.... skill should matter in any class.  yeah you dodge. and after 15 secs you have to dodge another set. after 15 secs another one. if there are no planes left in squad, you are gonna have to dodge an other squad within a min. nice. have fun with dodging. besides not having the fighters isnt the only problem. right now with current CVs, target picking is one of the points where skill matters. a potato one can fly over AA ships and lose all planes where a good cv can pick his targets wisely and can still be able to have some planes left after 19 mins. with this new CV gameplay, noone cares about losing planes and this is so stupid. game is already an arcade one, there is no need to make it even more arcade. 

3-people have been giving suggestions for years about cvs and lets see what wg did. intoruced saipan, GZ and AP bombs. so obviously constructive feedback works... besides there is a suggestion. actually 2. keep this new stupid gameplay fine. but give only one other squadron which is fighter planes. dont allow them to spot or anything or make them really vulnerable to ship AA so while spotting they can be shot down really quick.  and give a hangar capacity to cvs back again. so skillfull player can make some difference.

[Pikkozoikum]

13 ore fa, El2aZeR ha scritto:

 

Penetration damage is 33%, which with USN HE bombs is 5100. 5100 x 6 bombs dropped = 30600.

Double penetrations can occur with AP bombs just like with AP shells. Still, due to a lack of DoT they are vastly inferior.

Double penetrations? How is that working, I mean a shell can only explode one time?

 

13 ore fa, ghostbuster_ ha scritto:

oh i totatlly understand and it is just wrong. a better player makes a difference in all classes. you can outplay enemy. but right now no matter how good you are in new cvs, you can not outplay enemy cv.

1-yes you can send few fighetrs which are controlled by AI and enemy can just fly around them. and those fighters dont stay long aswell. nice f.cking counter play right there...

2-this is where the skill matters.... skill should matter in any class.  yeah you dodge. and after 15 secs you have to dodge another set. after 15 secs another one. if there are no planes left in squad, you are gonna have to dodge an other squad within a min. nice. have fun with dodging. besides not having the fighters isnt the only problem. right now with current CVs, target picking is one of the points where skill matters. a potato one can fly over AA ships and lose all planes where a good cv can pick his targets wisely and can still be able to have some planes left after 19 mins. with this new CV gameplay, noone cares about losing planes and this is so stupid. game is already an arcade one, there is no need to make it even more arcade. 

3-people have been giving suggestions for years about cvs and lets see what wg did. intoruced saipan, GZ and AP bombs. so obviously constructive feedback works... besides there is a suggestion. actually 2. keep this new stupid gameplay fine. but give only one other squadron which is fighter planes. dont allow them to spot or anything or make them really vulnerable to ship AA so while spotting they can be shot down really quick.  and give a hangar capacity to cvs back again. so skillfull player can make some difference.

Its still no duel game

[El2aZeR]

5 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Double penetrations? How is that working, I mean a shell can only explode one time?

 

A shell or bomb penetrates multiple sections of a ship, thus damage gets applied more than once.

Don't ask me how exactly it works, I don't think WG ever explained it properly.

[Pikkozoikum]

Just now, El2aZeR said:

 

A shell or bomb penetrates multiple sections of a ship, thus damage gets applied more than once.

Don't ask me how exactly it works, I don't think WG ever explained it properly.

That makes no sense AP bombs go always through multiple sections. When the citadel get hit, it penetrates (or overpenetrates?) the Deck and maybe the superstructure, but it should detonate in the citadell?

 

By the way, I just noticed, when you're on a attack run with planes, island are blocking vision

[El2aZeR]

34 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That makes no sense

 

I know. Only WG knows how it really works.

[KarmaQU_EU]

I understand it's unreasonable of me to expect a rework to bring great improvements to some of the game's flaws - reworks in other games rarely manage to alter core structures in their games either -

 

But an isolated rework without treating the endemic problems within WoWs will not bring about any noticeable benefit (in statistics such as player count increase). It will be but a heavy-handed way to address some specific concerns and outcries regarding CV balance within overall gameplay. Which is not a single issue in itself, but is inseparable from other problems within the rest of the game. 

 

I'll just say as much: I think it's a greatly wasted opportunity, one that WoWs cannot afford to pass by. There are plenty of other games that are more complex, take longer times to play a single match, involve a large amount of grind - years even, and have many payed features. Some even deal in (niche enough) completely fictional contexts and settings. Yet they can manage to do well, or manage good design for their games. I'm tired of hearing all kinds of excuses from players, from the devs, from the company, who adamantly refuse to acknowledge there are "core" problems, who view progress as negative, naysayers as unavoidable, yet 'meaningless', and to be ignored.

 

And that's the end of this CV rework for me.

[1MajorKoenig]

@Crysantos i have a question: will the testing include multiple iterations / Versions or are you just collecting feedback on this very prototype?

 

Some points like taking control of the CV, sluggish handling of the planes seem to be identified by multiple ppl here. Is there any chance we see some of these addresses and test again or is that not the scope here?

[RAMJB]

I won't stop repeating:

This doesn't solve anything with the class. Because the class has no solution. A game based around ships fighting gunfire engagements is no place for an aircraft carrier to begin with. A game where sneak fire had to be removed because how infuriating it was to be fired by something you couldn't see nor engage back is no place for an aircraft carrier. And a game were DoT effects are devastating is no place for an aircraft carrier with multiple attacks per wave AND (now) infinite aircraft.

Wargaming commited a massive, HUGE, mistake making CVs a playable class in the game, and they're trying to double guess a no win situation to try to make it manageable, when it's not. CVs should've never been in the game to begin with - the only viable rework regarding them is just removing them from PVP gameplay. Nothing short of that will give proper results.

Turning CVs into massive standoff damage farmers solves just one issue: Skill gap between CVs will decide less battles because now the class requires essentially no skill whatsoever. The rest of the infuriating things of the class ,specifically, that is designed to basically ruin every other player's fun by just existing, is not solved. It's not even adressed. Because it can't be. The class itself can't be balanced because of it's very intrinsic characteristics.

CVs are the god-tier kings of stealth firing. But stealth firing was removed because "it was unfun". By this stage I think we can all agree - removing stealth firing was needed, that change was effective, that change was good for the game. Yet CVs, the god-tier kings of stealth firing, are still here. It makes no sense whatsoever.


The "rework" will make things worse. Currently the most fun matches are those that there's no carrier present, which is a dead giveaway of the issue, the issue being that the class is only fun for those playing it, and nobody else. And that has no possible solution.

That class has no place in this game. Get rid of it already. Keep it for coop and scenarios, for all I care, but CVs have no place in PVP games.

 

 

I play DDs, CAs, BBs in almost the same % spread. I play several nations too. I have no positive bias to either nation nor class. CVs are equally bad for all of them. The only one having "fun" in a match with CVs present is the CV players, and this rework won't change anything....except making them more popular, which is a huge drawback because the best part of CVs in the game right now is that there are matches without them.

 

Get.Rid.Of.The.Class.Already.

[El2aZeR]

14 minutes ago, RAMJB said:

A game based around ships fighting gunfire engagements is no place for an aircraft carrier to begin with.

 

"A game based around infantry engagements is no place for vehicles to begin with."

"A game based around close quarters fighting is no place for snipers to begin with."

"A game based around armies is no place for WMDs to begin with."

etc. etc. etc.

 

17 minutes ago, RAMJB said:

A game where sneak fire had to be removed because how infuriating it was to be fired by something you couldn't see nor engage back is no place for an aircraft carrier.

 

Good thing that you can attack CVs by shooting down aircraft and reducing their reserves, aka their health, to zero at least in the current iteration. You don't even need to actively chase him or anything, he has to come to you! That's the ultimate luxury when it comes to counterplay.

 

Not only is your understanding of the game as shoddy as expected from such baseless whining, the fundamental basis of your argument is built on quick sand.

 

Yeah, sure, making CVs pure damage farmers is bad for the game. But hey, this was directly caused by whiners like you, so if you want to know who is responsible just take a look in the mirror and live with it.

[Nechrom]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

"A game based around infantry engagements is no place for vehicles to begin with."

"A game based around close quarters fighting is no place for snipers to begin with."

"A game based around armies is no place for WMDs to begin with."

etc. etc. etc.

 

Good thing that you can attack CVs by shooting down aircraft and reducing their reserves, aka their health, to zero at least in the current iteration. You don't even need to actively chase him or anything, he has to come to you! That's the ultimate luxury when it comes to counterplay.

 

Not only is your understanding of the game as shoddy as expected from such baseless whining, the fundamental basis of your argument is built on quick sand.

 

Yeah, sure, making CVs pure damage farmers is bad for the game. But hey, this was directly caused by whiners like you, so if you want to know who is responsible just take a look in the mirror and live with it.

But what RAMJB is saying is still true though.

No matter how many false equivalences you come up with.

 

I totally understand that you can't have an objective discussion regarding this topic and that's fine. But at least be honest about that.

The best argument against what RAMJB is saying is simply that WG will never remove CVs from PvP, so it's a moot point. We'll just have make the best of the situation.

 

I still think people are drawing too many conclusions from this first test. It's not about balance, it's about the gameplay.

Numbers are incredibly easy to tweak when they are remaking everything from scratch anyway. 

[Pappus]

2 hours ago, RAMJB said:

I won't stop repeating:

This doesn't solve anything with the class. Because the class has no solution. A game based around ships fighting gunfire engagements is no place for an aircraft carrier to begin with. A game where sneak fire had to be removed because how infuriating it was to be fired by something you couldn't see nor engage back is no place for an aircraft carrier. And a game were DoT effects are devastating is no place for an aircraft carrier with multiple attacks per wave AND (now) infinite aircraft.

Wargaming commited a massive, HUGE, mistake making CVs a playable class in the game, and they're trying to double guess a no win situation to try to make it manageable, when it's not. CVs should've never been in the game to begin with - the only viable rework regarding them is just removing them from PVP gameplay. Nothing short of that will give proper results.

Turning CVs into massive standoff damage farmers solves just one issue: Skill gap between CVs will decide less battles because now the class requires essentially no skill whatsoever. The rest of the infuriating things of the class ,specifically, that is designed to basically ruin every other player's fun by just existing, is not solved. It's not even adressed. Because it can't be. The class itself can't be balanced because of it's very intrinsic characteristics.

CVs are the god-tier kings of stealth firing. But stealth firing was removed because "it was unfun". By this stage I think we can all agree - removing stealth firing was needed, that change was effective, that change was good for the game. Yet CVs, the god-tier kings of stealth firing, are still here. It makes no sense whatsoever.


The "rework" will make things worse. Currently the most fun matches are those that there's no carrier present, which is a dead giveaway of the issue, the issue being that the class is only fun for those playing it, and nobody else. And that has no possible solution.

That class has no place in this game. Get rid of it already. Keep it for coop and scenarios, for all I care, but CVs have no place in PVP games.

 

 

I play DDs, CAs, BBs in almost the same % spread. I play several nations too. I have no positive bias to either nation nor class. CVs are equally bad for all of them. The only one having "fun" in a match with CVs present is the CV players, and this rework won't change anything....except making them more popular, which is a huge drawback because the best part of CVs in the game right now is that there are matches without them.

 

Get.Rid.Of.The.Class.Already.

Not being able to fire back at your target is basically a core design aspect of the game. You can't shoot back at the cruisers hiding behind an island or DDs in smoke and alike. There is also range differences and so forth.

 

CV is no difference to that - except that you can see his shot coming a mile away and appropriately use WASD to drastically diminish its capacity to damage you.

[Seepheerd]

1 minute ago, Nechrom said:

But what RAMJB is saying is still true though.

 

But cv's are beautiful! Keep them in the game :)

[RAMJB]

First, the idea of "hitting back by shooting planes" is hysterical and hillarious. You can't attack CVs by shooting down aircraft. They don't die if you kill their planes. But you do if their planes hit you.

Also, AA is simply not enough even in the strongest base-AA ships, unless you spec for antiAA skills. Otherwise you won't kill enough of them. Not in enough numbers anyway unless you're in an AA cruiser and have DFAA up. Otherwise you might bag what? 3-4 planes per attack? 5? 8?. High tier CVs laugh at that, if in return they just cripple a high tier enemy ship. With plane reserves of 100-110ish?. You can just ask any DM who was oneshotted with his DFAA on cooldown by those very balanced AP bombers. And is not hard to force him to put DFAA on cooldown. Just strike him with TBs first, he'll be forced to either switch it on or get brutalized. Come with DBs a minute later. Right click on him. DM deleted.

Sure you'll lose some planes, but in high tiers you have enough to spare and deleting a well placed DM equals winning half the battle. Ask the DM how he feels about the 10-15 planes he might have shoot down, and if that was "hitting back" to the CV. If he doesn't insult you he'll come short. Much counterplay.

BTW "rework" gives infinite aircraft to the CVs, or maybe I did understand it wrong?.


Now we got that out of the way, my "shoddy" understanding of the game, well, that's a good one. Sadly you don't back it up with anything. I gave some pretty good reasons as for why CVs don't belong in this game. All you can come back with is "but but but you can kill his planes". Which is, plain and simple, horsecrap. Brown, stinkin', smokin' horsecrap.

Try harder. Problem is, you can't, because there's no defensible argument about why CVs make sense in this game. They just don't.

Oh and btw my "whining" hasn't brought this change. I never asked for a change. I've always asked for exactly what I'm asking now: Remove the damned class. It has no place in this game, neither thematically, neither balance wise, neither gameplay wise. I don't care for reworks, I don't care for "rebalancing", I don't care for either and have never asked for either. I've always stated in pretty clear terms that the only solution for the complete messup WG did when they included the CVs in the game, is to remove them from PVP alltogether.

Nothing short of that will solve the huge issues that class bring to the game.

 

1 ora fa, Pappus ha scritto:

Not being able to fire back at your target is basically a core design aspect of the game. You can't shoot back at the cruisers hiding behind an island or DDs in smoke and alike. There is also range differences and so forth.

 

 

 

those guys have to work hard for achieving that position. Positional play is a skill - if you are skilled you should be rewarded. It's also situational - not all maps have lots of places to do that stuff, and not always you're spawned in the proper place to use it from the get go, so you have to recognize the opportunity when it arises. Again, skill demanded. Finally ,not all ships can fire from behind islands, certainly not from close enough as to make return fire difficult. So there's that too.

However CVs get that invulnerability by default, just by choosing the class and hitting "to battle" they're, by default, given the status of "unhittable". So obviously we're talking about completely different things here to begin with.

 

So with that cleared up, let's set things straight: someone behind an island is "hidden" from the dudes beyond the island. He's not from spotter planes aloft that can detect his firing bloom range opening him for reprisal from other high-arc shell ships. And for damned sure he's not from the guy some sectors away who's working up a crossfire position to delete him outright.

 

DDs in smoke CAN be hit. I won't even comment about radar, no need to: If you spot his shots, note displacement between them to see if he's moving or not and are good at estimating elevation (with the new circle in the minimap to show you where you're aiming that's a child's play) and lead, you can hit back. Yes, it's not as reliable as aimed shots to visible enemies. Dispersion will be much worse too. But you -CAN- fire back, and you -CAN- get hits. You can fight back. No ship is truly "hidden" in this game (but CVs, of course) 
If you can shoot something, something can shoot back at you, even if he doesn't see you. The hundreds of neptunes and minotaurs being devstriked when into smoke each day can attest to that, the same as all those DDs who thought they were safe from counterfire while letting loose volley after volley within their smokes, only to be smashed to bits.

 

Maybe the dude you're shooting at can't shoot back, yes. That particular one maybe not if he has a ship without the needed gun arcs and you're firing from behind a high enough island, but that doesn't mean the dude next to him in a ship with high arching shells won't be able to. Or the one 5km off his side. And the dude across the map who has worked himself a good flanking position, will too - which is the point, behind-the-island shooting HAS counterplays.

A CV doesn't have to bother with any of those - unless his team folds and lets the enemy through. The "counterplay" is to shoot down a dozen planes, it seems, in exchange for 3/4 of your health if not outright all of it. Much counterplay.

So again, completely different things. 

[Pappus]

8 minutes ago, RAMJB said:

 

 

those guys have to work hard for achieving that position. Positional play is a skill - if you are skilled you should be rewarded. It's also situational - not all maps have lots of places to do that stuff, and not always you're spawned in the proper place to use it from the get go, so you have to recognize the opportunity when it arises. Again, skill demanded. Finally ,not all ships can fire from behind islands, certainly not from close enough as to make return fire difficult. So there's that too.

However CVs get that invulnerability by default, just by choosing the class and hitting "to battle" they're, by default, given the status of "unhittable". So obviously we're talking about completely different things here to begin with.

 

Still, someone behind an island is "hidden" from the dudes beyond the island. He's not from his flanks. He's not from spotter planes aloft that can detect his firing bloom range opening him for reprisal from other high-arc shell ships. No ship is truly "hidden" in this game. If you can shoot something, something can shoot back at you. The hundreds of blown up neptunes or minotaurs with devstrikes can attest to that.

 

Maybe the dude you're shooting at can't shoot back, yes that one maybe not if he has a ship without the needed gun arcs, but the dude next to him in a ship with high arching shells will. Or the one 5km on his side. And the dude across the map in a good flanking position, will too - which is the point, behind-the-island shooting HAS counterplays.

A CV doesn't have to bother with any of those - unless his team folds and lets the enemy through. The "counterplay" is to shoot down a dozen planes, it seems, in exchange for 3/4 of your health if not outright all of it. Much counterplay.

So again, completely different things. 

Getting behind an island is not hard to achieve - surely you jest. Neither is pressing the smoke button. Yes it can be done better with skill, but fundamentally it is still creating a situation where the enemy cannot fire back.

 

Ultimately torpedos are the same story.

 

Your counter argument is very funny, because you literally feed straight into mine:

 

You agree that sometimes someone cannot strike back at a specific target, but the next guy can and thus it makes it okay. Now guess what the enemy CV can always be struck by your CV ;) So by that very definition that makes it acceptable by your own admission.

 

So at this point we can already agree on that the un-hitable CV does not exist but furthermore a CV that borderhumps somewhere is about as scary as your BBs guarding the rear line. It isn't optimal. CVs also should  get as close to the action as they can - their optimal range is not 30km.

 

There is also more to the counterplay than shooting planes. Having cruisers in good positions (which coincides with generally good positions for them) is a nightmare to the CV and helps your CV a whole lot.

 

You guys make CVs sound like they are dropping you every 30 seconds when in reality most targets in a normal match never interact with the enemy CV in any way, because they simply strike so rarely.

 

Shooting down planes, position, minimizing the damage you take all help tremendously unlike that BB that just shot one of your cruisers broadside out of concealment - to be repeated (hopefully) 30s later.

 

[RAMJB]

34 minutes ago, Pappus said:

Getting behind an island is not hard to achieve - surely you jest. Neither is pressing the smoke button. Yes it can be done better with skill, but fundamentally it is still creating a situation where the enemy cannot fire back.

 

Ultimately torpedos are the same story.

 

Your counter argument is very funny, because you literally feed straight into mine:

 

You agree that sometimes someone cannot strike back at a specific target, but the next guy can and thus it makes it okay. Now guess what the enemy CV can always be struck by your CV ;) So by that very definition that makes it acceptable by your own admission.

 

So at this point we can already agree on that the un-hitable CV does not exist but furthermore a CV that borderhumps somewhere is about as scary as your BBs guarding the rear line. It isn't optimal. CVs also should  get as close to the action as they can - their optimal range is not 30km.

 

There is also more to the counterplay than shooting planes. Having cruisers in good positions (which coincides with generally good positions for them) is a nightmare to the CV and helps your CV a whole lot.

 

You guys make CVs sound like they are dropping you every 30 seconds when in reality most targets in a normal match never interact with the enemy CV in any way, because they simply strike so rarely.

 

Shooting down planes, position, minimizing the damage you take all help tremendously unlike that BB that just shot one of your cruisers broadside out of concealment - to be repeated (hopefully) 30s later.

 

 

Getting behind an island is easy.

Being USEFUL while being behind an island not. Positional play is one of the hardest skills to master in this game, and shooting behind islands is all about positioning and map awareness.

If some guy is going to erase himself from the fight by hiding behind an island where he can only shoot a limited ammount of enemies, and be bound in a static position he can't contribute much from, he's actually doing you a favor.

Also putting yourself behind a random island is just calling for trouble, because again, you're shielded from your front, but you have to check the sides you're unshielded from all the time. There's a very defined line between being in an useful position behind an island that properly shields you, and being in a wasteful position from behind an island that actually is not giving you the protection you think.

And of course there's always the threat of the crossfire.

 

About smoke...please. Pressing smoke just at random is just an invitation for the DM or Moskva you didn't take in account by smoking at random to close in a bit, and press HIS button. Guess what happens next. Not to mention that once in smoke you're going to fire - your fire will be noted, someone will look at that angry smoke cloud and aim at it. You can be juking all you want, but if you're not extra careful you're in for a treat. Oh, and of course there are torpedoes too, you know...

 

and smoke doesn't last forever and has a cooldown (so the CV is "permanently smoked in an invulnerable cloud" you could say).

Again, smoke gives a great degree of concealment - but is no safe haven and there are active counterplays to it. Counterplays that involve smashing the dude within the smoke. Not destroying one of his turrets and leaving him at full health (which would be a good analogy to "killing planes" as so-called "counterplay").

 

 

"the counter to a CV is another CV". No. Just no. CV-strikes are just stupid in anything beyond T6, with the possible exception of Kaga at T7. From T8 they're just stupid.
.
So again your idea of "counterplay" involves killing enemy planes. Not the ship. Again, that's not the same thing. Killing planes is not killing the enemy, the same way disabling a cruiser's turret is not killing the cruiser. That's not "counterplay". That's just reducing your opponent's chances to deal damage. But that's not damaging him. When in your ship you kill an Yamato's spotter plane you're not counterplaying him, you're limiting his visibility ,but he's very much still alive and well. So is the CV when you kill his planes.

So it's not the same thing that all the other classes suffer: when they're counterplayed , they're sent back to port in their smouldering sinking husk. But not in CVs. They just have to send another wave until they're out of planes, and again those things carry a crapload of them at high tiers. If I miscalculate in my Fletcher, I'm sent back to port or, if lucky, be crippled for the remainder of the game. If I miscalculate in a Roon, I'm sent back to port, or if lucky, be crippled for the remainder of the game. If I miscalculate in a Montana, I'll be sent back to port or I'll be crippled for the remainder of the game.

 

 But if someone miscalculates in his CV, he just has to send another strike and try again. He's not sent back to port as everyone else is.
And why not?. Because reasons. "reasons" being that WG completely messed up putting in here a class that has no bussiness being here. About time they stop wandering around trying solutions that are not, and remove the problem alltogether.

 

I don't say that a CV can strike each 30 seconds. Not an alpha at any rate. But he can send waves of TBs first, bombers later, or the inverse with the time gap between them he desires. That he can do. And again, it's a great thing that they can't strike more times than what they can. They're obnoxious as they are, if they had faster turnarounds they'd be even more stupidly insane.

 

 

The "oneshotting cruisers out of concealment from a BB" has some merit though, I give you that. But that's a whole different topic. hopefully the 4% concealment range nerf the BBs are about to hit help with that. But that's mostly the problem with some very wrong decisions taken by Wargaming - namely introducing battleships with better concealment than the worse concealment cruisers should've NEVER happened with very limited exceptions of abnormally small BBs for their tier. But again, that's a whole different topic we can talk about elsewhere.

[Capra76]

25 minutes ago, RAMJB said:

Getting behind an island is easy.

Being USEFUL while being behind an island not. Positional play is one of the hardest skills to master in this game, and shooting behind islands is all about positioning and map awareness.

Yep.

 

Other classes can shoot from stealth by using e.g. island cover but it needs skill to be done well, requires others to spot, limits your target selection and can be countered by the enemy using the same tactics.

 

CV on the other hand can essentially shoot through islands and spot their own targets.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Nechrom said:

I still think people are drawing too many conclusions from this first test. It's not about balance, it's about the gameplay.

Numbers are incredibly easy to tweak when they are remaking everything from scratch anyway. 

 

Personally I can't see how they can ever be balanced, as a class the play is so fundamentally different to everything else in the game there's no way to include them without them being apex-predators with no real counter.

 

Or to put it another way, the only way to win a game of cat and mouse is to not be the mouse.

[Speedymaus80]

hmm, just testet out the new cv rework, nice job, gets more actionsided, specially for non cv players like me, that ius just not that good in CVs.

 

The handling is hard to beginning but after a while you get used to it. 

 

i do like the attackpattern of the dive bombers, the rework yould probably let me play my cv again, well for 1-2 Month, after that i think?? naa.. 

As defender i have seen you cant klick on enemy planes anymore so the probably need to take out the skill of the commanders skill tree.

 

the much i like the new rework i gotta say, it doesnt change a thing on the problems right now. :

 

CV´s are still matchmaking, ok now i gotta fly 2-3 times on a BB to kill his [edited], bevor 1 shot by a good player, takes you 15-30 seks longer, ammunition reload is not present anymore, so he doesnt need to refill, hes got now endless count of planes, for what i have seen on Midway and Hakuryu. the new rocket fighters are now garantied hit on an enemy ship, thinking about a dd capping, and cv sets back all the time, i did that by 1 cv against 1 dd left, he couldn cap i won, his smoke was used up i had unlimited fire and 2 caps from 3 he couldn cap through. and the aa on dd is crap well all know that. so the cv is still a game breaker after all. dd cant  get to cv in time but cv can spot capping how he likes to.

 

 

My Oppinion, it would help if the Planes are reduced on distance, like all battleships, they only got a amount of firing rang after this he need to come closer for firing, cv does now, and since the cv planes do not have fuel they got unlimited range and cv can stay in safe spot. 80% of the battles will stay the same with the new cv rework, cv goes ot surviving, didnt even get 1 shot. specially that the cv is that important to the gameplay its stupid to give the cv planes with unlimited range. specially on tier X you can see the outcome of the game after 2-3 minutes, what cv is better, and the cv rework will NOT get rid of this problem. 

 

just my oppinion to the rework and CV´s in Game

 

[ghostbuster_]

17 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Its still no duel game

yeah, true its a team game where you cant help your other ships with new cvs... great design.

 

6 hours ago, Nechrom said:

I still think people are drawing too many conclusions from this first test. It's not about balance, it's about the gameplay.

 

its so EDIT boring

[Darth_Glorious]

Sector reinforcement

 

Class                                                  Enabling/disabling time                  Shift time between AA sectors             AA sector bonus / penalty

BB (without manual AA)                                15s                                                               25s                                                         15%

BB  (with manual AA)                                     12s                                                               20s                                                          25%

 

CA (without manual AA)                                15s                                                               20s                                                          25%

CA (with manual AA)                                      12s                                                               16s                                                          35%

 

DD (without manual AA)                                 8s                                                                 10s                                                         50%

DD (with manual AA)                                       6.4s                                                               8s                                                          60%

 

CV (without manual AA)                                 20s                                                                30s                                                         60%   

CV (with manual AA)                                       16s                                                                24s                                                         70%                                 

[Darth_Glorious]

AA accuracy

 

Class                      Short range                               Mid range                                     Long range

 

BB                                50%                                           65%                                                 65%

CA                                75%                                           80%                                                 80%

DD                                85%                                           90%                                                 90%

CV                                95%                                           95%                                                 95%

 

CV sniping is very hard

 

DD long/mid range AA is very deadly due to high accuracy, big bonus to AA reinforcement and short AA shift time