CV Rework Discussion

[veslingr]

Just now, El2aZeR said:

 

A combination of high average damage and high KPM equals high effective damage. High effective damage equals high game influence.

 

If we take Stalingrad, we can assume due to its limited playerbase and means of distribution that the average Stalingrad player is far more skilled, thus making any comparison to Haku moot in the first place.

Therefore, due to the higher average skill, we can also conclude that Stalin will shoot DDs and cruisers primarily which will often be done with AP. Stalingrad is likewise adept at fighting BBs with the same AP shells.

This in turn is reflected by high average damage and high KPM.

so many "assume" here....but i agree from 1 solo stat we can not tell much.....but combined high dmg, high WR, high Kill ratio...it is stong ship and/or ship with better than average players in it making alot of influence in game.

 

nothng we can not say for CVs with certainty as we can say for Stalingrad.

 

infact Stalighrad is more disturbance for game balancethan Hakuryu...if we look stats

 

Balansigrad is his name, ist it? :)

[veslingr]

4 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Sure, depending on the situation. But when it's all about one class being op or bad for the game, the win rate of a single ship doesn't matter much. Also you do realize that the fact that the carriers are as balanced as they are (at T10 at least) also confirms that we are indeed talking about an entire class of ships, not any specific one?

Let's try: "In the current meta Hindengurg isn't as strong as Smolensk."

Class can not be OP....i thought we move from that part...it can be irritating to you, or boring to you, or you do ot know how to play agains it or have bad play stile to you...but whole class can not be OP

[CptBarney]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

What do you mean exactly? Wow numbers shows a lot of average statistics? ^^

Also shouldn'T be the average alsways 50%? Guess it'S 48 because of hidden stats?

Server average for players in general.

Depends on the proportion of good players and bad i guess, its 48 due to every player thats played so far, i think the minimum battles it allows for the account to be added into the data pool. 

 

 

[AndyHill]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

Class can not be OP....i thought we move from that part...it can be irritating to you, or boring to you, or you do ot know how to play agains it or have bad play stile to you...but whole class can not be OP

This is honestly the most puzzling thing in this discussion so far. You're simply so completely wrong on such a fundamental level that I don't even know how to reply. You finally got me.

[Rionnen_marksman]

5 minutes ago, veslingr said:

so many "assume" here....but i agree from 1 solo stat we can not tell much.....but combined high dmg, high WR, high Kill ratio...it is stong ship and/or ship with better than average players in it making alot of influence in game.

 

nothng we can not say for CVs with certainty as we can say for Stalingrad.

 

infact Stalighrad is more disturbance for game balancethan Hakuryu...if we look stats

 

Balansigrad is his name, ist it? :)

What a Stalingrad does:

 

lots of damage, great vs dd/cruisers

 

what a cv does:

 

cap reset

active spotting / passive spotting

damage

RELIABLE Repeat DCP triggering

makes DD’s turn away from caps

alters course of ANY ship it attacks (and can do this to groups as they don’t know who it’s attacking)

islands are irrelevant

angling is irrelevant 

 

 

ALOT of this doesn’t effect the CV’s XP gain, so those 9 out of 11 stats that you were shown yesterday are HUGELY significant. 

 

It it doesn’t matter about WR, it doesn’t matter about average damage. 

 

They do TOO MANY things.

[El2aZeR]

47 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I saw RTS unicums dropping in their winrates with rework, it's nice, that those don'T decide the game like they did before in RTS

 

Except they have been replaced by new unicums who decide matches just as much singlehandedly as RTS unicums did before.

Nice of you to leave out that little detail. "Hurr durr at least those unicums have left the game,  them."

 

What can be compared is the amount of counterplay, because that can actually be quantified. For example:

If I attack a DM with RTS Midway, even with AP DBs, and he has a partial AA build + DFAA, he will wipe out all my squadrons and I will deal little to no damage to him. I will incur a severe penalty in plane reserves and service time. Eventually I will be deplaned for having dealt negligible damage to the DM.

If I attack a DM with reworked Midway, I will deal severe damage despite him having DFAA and a partial or even full AA build. I will incur no penalty due to my reserves being ludicrously larger than before and service time being nonexistent. Eventually the DM will die, while I will be just as powerful as before.

 

This can be repeated with any ship or even ship group and the results will be vastly in favor of reworked CVs.

Therefore scientifically speaking reworked CVs are objectively far worse for surface ship gameplay than RTS CVs ever were. Your personal opinion may differ, however that is irrelevant as it is simply wrong.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, CptBarney said:

Server average for players in general.

Depends on the proportion of good players and bad i guess, its 48 due to every player thats played so far, i think the minimum battles it allows for the account to be added into the data pool. 

 

 

How shall that work? In every match you have a winning team and a losing team. Same number of players gain a win and a lose. Thus the average is 50%

The only thing that you could show is something like "skewness", which would show on which side is the weight..

[veslingr]

3 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

This is honestly the most puzzling thing in this discussion so far. You're simply so completely wrong on such a fundamental level that I don't even know how to reply. You finally got me.

pls for love of god, dont respod more....go in game and play....on forum you will not move from 47% w rtrying to explain to me how whole class is hindering your progression in WOWS abd how WR is not importan

[Capra76]

2 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Class can not be OP....i thought we move from that part...it can be irritating to you, or boring to you, or you do ot know how to play agains it or have bad play stile to you...but whole class can not be OP

 

Really?

 

So you'd be cool with all DD having their AA upgraded to Type 45 or Arleigh Burke power levels, all of your planes downed the moment they get off the deck and salvos of Harpoon missiles coming back from them sending your CV to the bottom of the sea 5 minutes into the game.

 

Because if all DD can do that then the class is not OP, right?

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

What a Stalingrad does:

 

lots of damage, great vs dd/cruisers

 

what a cv does:

 

cap reset

active spotting / passive spotting

damage

RELIABLE Repeat DCP triggering

makes DD’s turn away from caps

alters course of ANY ship it attacks (and can do this to groups as they don’t know who it’s attacking)

islands are irrelevant

angling is irrelevant 

 

 

ALOT of this doesn’t effect the CV’s XP gain, so those 9 out of 11 stats that you were shown yesterday are HUGELY significant. 

 

It it doesn’t matter about WR, it doesn’t matter about average damage. 

 

They do TOO MANY things.

That's why I suggested a recon plane for CVs. While the strike planes can'T spot for teams, the recon plane could do that

Thus the CV player can only spot, or do damage. He has to decide.

To make spotting more valuable and fun, there would be different mechanics for spotting, which would motivate CV players to use the spotter plane

I had also a design, that the spotter plane would be only good against large ships with bad concleament (The recon plane is a single plane, not a squad, thus DDs and Cls could delete it in seconds and counter the spotter)

[El2aZeR]

13 minutes ago, veslingr said:

so many "assume" here

 

Actually we can prove that.

If we take a look at wows-numbers the lowest performing player in Stalingrad deals 40k average damage. Well over half of its total population deals 80k damage and above with a 1 KPM rating.

Therefore we can in fact conclude that Stalingrad players are on average more skilled.

 

The fact that Haku comes even close to competing despite having a vastly more incompetent average playerbase speaks volumes.

[veslingr]

3 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

What a Stalingrad does:

 

lots of damage, great vs dd/cruisers

 

what a cv does:

 

cap reset

active spotting / passive spotting

damage

RELIABLE Repeat DCP triggering

makes DD’s turn away from caps

alters course of ANY ship it attacks (and can do this to groups as they don’t know who it’s attacking)

islands are irrelevant

angling is irrelevant 

 

 

ALOT of this doesn’t effect the CV’s XP gain, so those 9 out of 11 stats that you were shown yesterday are HUGELY significant. 

 

It it doesn’t matter about WR, it doesn’t matter about average damage. 

 

They do TOO MANY things.

No radar? not best tanking cruiser in game? not longest ranged radar in game? Basicly controls cap from half map? Not mist used cruiser in competitive play?

yuo sure we taling about same ship?

 

 

i know, CVs are magical...and ave I win button...only praying can save you...best to exit game ASAP if you see CV in it..no matter it is 40% WR CV....just exit..you are doomed.

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

 

Really?

 

So you'd be cool with all DD having their AA upgraded to Type 45 or Arleigh Burke power levels, all of your planes downed the moment they get off the deck and salvos of Harpoon missiles coming back from them sending your CV to the bottom of the sea 5 minutes into the game.

 

Because if all DD can do that then the class is not OP, right?

ha? i lost you? 

 

ok ok...if whole class gets I WIN BUTTON i will admit the class is OP

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Actually we can prove that.

If we take a look at wows-numbers the lowest performing player in Stalingrad deals 40k average damage. Well over half of its total population deals 80k damage and above with a 1 KPM rating.

Therefore we can in fact conclude that Stalingrad players are on average more skilled.

 

The fact that Haku comes even close to competing despite having a vastly more incompetent average playerbase speaks volumes.

i thought we do not look wows numbers because we look whole history of game?

[AndyHill]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

pls for love of god, dont respod more....go in game and play....on forum you will not move from 47% w rtrying to explain to me how whole class is hindering your progression in WOWS abd how WR is not importan

Au contraire, carriers have been a gigantic buff for my "progress" in the game, because they are so colossally OP. As a class. and WR is not important when comparing how OP a class is - when they are matched 1v1.

[El2aZeR]

Just now, veslingr said:

i thought we do not look wows numbers because we look whole history of game?

 

It's a perfectly valid source if you want to compare the total playerbases. It's not valid if you want to compare global stats.

[AndyHill]

2 minutes ago, veslingr said:

ok ok...if whole class gets I WIN BUTTON i will admit the class is OP

Yeah except just recently a class could not be OP. I'm really REALLY getting confused here now.

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, AndyHill said:

Au contraire, carriers have been a gigantic buff for my "progress" in the game, because they are so colossally OP. As a class. and WR is not important when comparing how OP a class is - when they are matched 1v1.

this made me giggled allitle bit....but GJ mate

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, AndyHill said:

Yeah except just recently a class could not be OP. I'm really REALLY getting confused here now.

you do not get sarcasm? 

[CptBarney]

12 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

How shall that work? In every match you have a winning team and a losing team. Same number of players gain a win and a lose. Thus the average is 50%

The only thing that you could show is something like "skewness", which would show on which side is the weight..

Well the statistics dont lie, i cant change them, if it says 48% then its 48%.

Anyway on one has answered my question is there a website similar to wotlabs that displays info in a similar way?

 

if there isnt then no worries more or less just a curious thing.

[veslingr]

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Actually we can prove that.

If we take a look at wows-numbers the lowest performing player in Stalingrad deals 40k average damage. Well over half of its total population deals 80k damage and above with a 1 KPM rating.

Therefore we can in fact conclude that Stalingrad players are on average more skilled.

 

The fact that Haku comes even close to competing despite having a vastly more incompetent average playerbase speaks volumes.

Or ship is that strong that even absolute potatoes could to 80k dmg in it....

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Au contraire, carriers have been a gigantic buff for my "progress" in the game, because they are so colossally OP. As a class. and WR is not important when comparing how OP a class is - when they are matched 1v1.

1vs1 can be quiet unimportant in a Teamgame. Best example is League of legends. Supportes are mostly pretty bad in 1vs1, while assassines are great in 1vs1, but still you play with supports, because they are important for the team, not for the 1vs1

 

The only thing which would make sense in a 1vs1 situation would be the same ship type. Comparing CV vs CV, or BB vs BB. etc
But even then, there are DDs vs different purposes. Some DDs have good guns and are supposed to finish off DDs in 1vs1, others are more against captial ships

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Or ship is that strong that even absolute potatoes could to 80k dmg in it....

 

Except if that were the case then there would be no severely underperforming players, yet they are there.

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Except if that were the case then there would be no severely underperforming players, yet they are there.

bots?

 

i just, really, can not grasp how would player with pulse do 40k dmg in Stalingrad on average....

[Pikkozoikum]

7 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Well the statistics dont lie, i cant change them, if it says 48% then its 48%.

Anyway on one has answered my question is there a website similar to wotlabs that displays info in a similar way?

 

if there isnt then no worries more or less just a curious thing.

Yes, but I would say, it's because of hidden statistic, and someone mentioned, draws count as loses. So that would explain it