CV Rework Discussion

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

They can do both. We do not have solid stat that shows us what proportions are really. Base exp would be good. Sadly we do not have it

 

A combination of avg dmg and KPM is a perfectly fine dataset as the other numbers in your list prove.

E.g. we know Conqueror tends to farm impactless damage and accordingly she gets high avg dmg and low KPM.

[AndyHill]

5 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I assume he means, that winrate is an important stat. 

But the winrate for a ship type like CV, BB etc is irrelevant, imo

Yeah well that's the source of my confusion. Everybody is talking about carriers being op or completely fine or anything between, how much damage, spotting etc. they do compared to other classe and I just can't even begin to figure out what relevance win rate has in that. I mean everybody has to understand that the winrate for every class has to be just below 50% because of how the matchmaker works, right?

[veslingr]

18 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Ok I'm officially completely confused now. This discussion is specifically about carriers as a whole being good or bad for the game. Do you think that the average win rate for the class or the win rate for any single carrier is relevant to that question and if so, why?

Wr of whole class is irrelevant.

 

Do you know what is average WR of all wows population - 50%

 

In your theory WR would be irrelevant in measuring how good is SINGLE player?

 

So player with 75% WR could not be proclaimed epic cause whole population of players sits on 50%wr. It sounds stupid isn't it?

 

Not try to translate that for whole  class. 

 

 

[Capra76]

35 minutes ago, veslingr said:

that is one big bullcrap.....thiking WR is irrelevant FOR A HIP is just...well....bad mate....really bad.

 

AND WE DO NOT EVER TALK ABOUT CLASS but ships....ffs.....get that? Sngle ship with its name and class....not whle class...but shingle class.

I did not put Classes average of TX but ships averages...comme on..this is clear to anybody in 4th grade

 

 

 

Wrong.

 

Let's imagine a completely different game, let's call it world of cats and mice where the game is:

• each team gets one cat and 11 mice;
• the cats tear the opposing team's mice into shreds then once that's done they fight each other for the win;
• the cats are evenly matched against each other so each cat will have a close to 50% WR;
• the mice are utterly powerless so they too have a 50% WR.

 

What you are saying is that the above is perfectly fair for everyone because everybody has the same chance of winning.

 

What we're saying is that the WR% tells you nothing about the relative power between cats and mice.

[veslingr]

4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

A combination of avg dmg and KPM is a perfectly fine dataset as the other numbers in your list prove.

E.g. we know Conqueror tends to farm impactless damage and accordingly she gets high avg dmg and low KPM.

But that fact do not shows us influence of game. Take Stalingrad for instance. Who does it shoot most? Is it HE or AP? What's stats shows? Inconclusive isnt it? 

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

 

Wrong.

🙄

[Rionnen_marksman]

2 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Yeah well that's the source of my confusion. Everybody is talking about carriers being op or completely fine or anything between, how much damage, spotting etc. they do compared to other classe and I just can't even begin to figure out what relevance win rate has in that. I mean everybody has to understand that the winrate for every class has to be just below 50% because of how the matchmaker works, right?

It’s a stupid discussion anyway.

 

even me as an average (at best, atm) CV player, if I pick a ship to destroy at the start of the battle, that ship WILL be destroyed. No ifs, no buts. 

2 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Wr of whole class is irrelevant.

 

Do you know what is average WT of all wows population - 50%

 

In your theory WR would be irrelevant in measuring how good is SINGLE player?

 

So player with 75% WR could not be proclaimed epic cause whole population of players sits on 50%wr. It sounds stupid isn't it?

 

Not try to translate that for whole  class. 

 

 

You know how mirrored MM works, someone has to lose. Which is why WR of the whole class is irrelevant.

 

its more a question of which captain is better... all CV’s are OP (maybe not GZ lol)

[DFens_666]

16 minutes ago, veslingr said:

I did not put Classes average of TX but ships averages...comme on..this is clear to anybody in 4th grade 

 

Ship WR for CVs is mostly irrelevant, because for T4+6+10 there are only 3 (4) CVs per tier!!!!

T8 is the only reliable tier to measure CV balance, since we have more than half a dozen different ones there.

 

On TX, you have matches like

Haku vs Haku

Midway vs Haku

Auda vs Midway

Haku vs Auda

Midway vs Midway

 

Audacious is basicly even irrelevant, since noone plays that one. Midway 6k games, Haku 4800 and Audacious... 1400 this week. Most of the time Midway and Haku face one another, or highly likely they face the same one.

If 2 Hakus meet each other THE WR IS ALWAYS 50% IN THOSE GAMES . I hope you finaly can accnowledge that. Because either you are dishonest, or... well you figure it out.

The only thing you see from Midway/Haku WR is that Midway is worse then Haku, since the difference in WR is 3%. So if Midway faces another CV, its slightly more likely that the side with midway loses. Could be, that Midway is worse, or that Midway is played by more bad players, we can only guess about that one tho. Or even for some reason, more good Midway players hide their stats. Only WG has all the Data.

[AndyHill]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

Wr of whole class is irrelevant.

Correct.

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

Do you know what is average WT of all wows population - 50%

Slightly below, because draws exist.

2 minutes ago, veslingr said:

In your theory WR would be irrelevant in measuring how good is SINGLE player?

No, but I'm not even slightly interested in a single player in this discussion. That's the whole point.

 

To recap; there was discussion about stats of CVs compared to other ship classes, mainly damage, spotting, specific damage, tanking etc. In that discussion you brought up winrate and referred to it as something that showed that carriers are not op. Can you clarify why you referred to winrate as an important stat at that point if class based winrate is not important (which is correct)?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 11 Minuten, Elypse201 sagte:

But serious fun aside WG you had your fun with the rework (1st April is over by now i guess), when we are getting the good old CV's back ?

I wonder how often that question will continue to be asked after 500 pages are reached. 

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Ship WR for CVs is mostly irrelevant, because for T4+6+10 there are only 3 (4) CVs per tier!!!!

T8 is the only reliable tier to measure CV balance, since we have more than half a dozen different ones there.

 

On TX, you have matches like

Haku vs Haku

Midway vs Haku

Auda vs Midway

Haku vs Auda

Midway vs Midway

 

Audacious is basicly even irrelevant, since noone plays that one. Midway 6k games, Haku 4800 and Audacious... 1400 this week. Most of the time Midway and Haku face one another, or highly likely they face the same one.

If 2 Hakus meet each other THE WR IS ALWAYS 50% IN THOSE GAMES . I hope you finaly can accnowledge that. Because either you are dishonest, or... well you figure it out.

The only thing you see from Midway/Haku WR is that Midway is worse then Haku, since the difference in WR is 3%. So if Midway faces another CV, its slightly more likely that the side with midway loses. Could be, that Midway is worse, or that Midway is played by more bad players, we can only guess about that one tho. Or even for some reason, more good Midway players hide their stats. Only WG has all the Data.

 Now could you explain me how 2 silver ships with highest WR are dds? Unplayable class in CV world? 

 

How is that possible?

Magic?

Bad voodoo?

 

Or LTP issue from cryers?

[AndyHill]

10 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

It’s a stupid discussion anyway.

 

even me as an average (at best, atm) CV player, if I pick a ship to destroy at the start of the battle, that ship WILL be destroyed. No ifs, no buts. 

The actual damage carriers do is the way they remove fun and interesting gameplay options by providing way too much information and due to their ability to strike anyone anywhere anytime. The fact that they can just poop all over anyone else - while being just astonishingly weird game design - is just icing on the cake. The fact that the class can also be considered op by its combination of spotting, (specific) damage, survivability and cap control - which alone is a big problem in the game's design - is just a tiny, insignificant side detail.

[Rionnen_marksman]

1 minute ago, Yoshanai said:

I wonder how often that question will continue to be asked after 500 pages are reached. 

As often as you said GZ sucks the other night 

 

 

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, veslingr sagte:

 Now could you explain me how 2 silver ships with highest WR are dds? Unplayable class in CV world? 

 

How is that possible?

Magic?

Bad voodoo?

 

Or LTP issue from cryers?

Many different DDs are around. The team with the better CV having a Daring and winning will inflate that winrate against the other DD's that might not have a Daring on the enemy team. 

At the same time the team with a Daring without a CV will win more often against the team with a Shimakaze. That is why Daring has more WR over CVs

Vor 1 Minute, Rionnen_marksman sagte:

As often as you said GZ sucks the other night 

 

 

 

So that means Al lot more times. 

[CptBarney]

How do you check the server averages in general?

 

World of tanks has this and the server average winrate for the EU server there is 48.82% plus 811 wn8, Although recent active is 49.61% and wn8 is 1089 and current recent is 50.11% and wn8 is 1213.

 

This is from WotLabs, doesnt wows-numbers have something similar?

 

https://wotlabs.net/

 

I used this site alot when i still played the game.

[veslingr]

6 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Correct.

Slightly below, because draws exist.

No, but I'm not even slightly interested in a single player in this discussion. That's the whole point.

 

To recap; there was discussion about stats of CVs compared to other ship classes, mainly damage, spotting, specific damage, tanking etc. In that discussion you brought up winrate and referred to it as something that showed that carriers are not op. Can you clarify why you referred to winrate as an important stat at that point if class based winrate is not important (which is correct)?

So basically you do not care that in same tier you have one cv that does 10 k dmg with rockets, solitd TB and drops 4 precise AP bombs and in same time you have cv that drops 2 ap bombs that fly all over place. Rockets do 2k dmg and torpeso have 850 meter activation radius. You do not care? You want those 2 put under same discussion?

 

So also when we talk about cruiser we should put Hindengurg and Smolensk in same balance sentence?

 

 

[veslingr]

13 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

It’s a stupid discussion anyway.

 

even me as an average (at best, atm) CV player, if I pick a ship to destroy at the start of the battle, that ship WILL be destroyed. No ifs, no buts. 

You know how mirrored MM works, someone has to lose. Which is why WR of the whole class is irrelevant.

 

its more a question of which captain is better... all CV’s are OP (maybe not GZ lol)

So how do you explain your WR if you can kill anybody you won't? Something smells here. 

[Pikkozoikum]

10 minutes ago, veslingr said:

 Now could you explain me how 2 silver ships with highest WR are dds? Unplayable class in CV world? 

 

How is that possible?

Magic?

Bad voodoo?

 

Or LTP issue from cryers?

He is only talking about the Winrate at some tiers for CVs. The stat WR for some CVs are not meaningful, because mirror matches against the same CV always falsifies the statistic

[Rionnen_marksman]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

So how do you explain your WR if you can kill anybody you won't? Something smells here. 

If it takes me 18 mins to kill a ship than that’s rather ineffective use of my time.

 

the problem here is that I CAN choose to do that.

[DFens_666]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

 Now could you explain me how 2 silver ships with highest WR are dds? Unplayable class in CV world? 

 

How is that possible?

Magic?

Bad voodoo?

 

Or LTP issue from cryers?

 

So you choose to evade the question at hand, but try to pull a strawman

Whether DDs can have a higher WR compared to CVs is also irrelevant, as we already figured out, CV WR is useless.

DDs have a high influence on the outcome of the game. Only because majority of CV players is incapable to deal with DDs, is it possible for good DD players to still influence the game despite having a CV in game (and not every game has a CV in it.. but almost these days). Also, if you are better / the DD you are playing is stronger than other DDs in the game, you will still win more often.

Kleber is still kinda new, and its not a traditional DD. Bad players will stay away from it, because they cant make it work. French DDs have a high skill ceiling.

Daring on the other hand, is extremely good fighting other DDs. Simply for that reason, it will have a higher WR. If im not specifically grinding any ship, and winning is my main objective, i most likely will pick a ship which can get me the win. If i would have all DDs, why should i pick one which is inferior to another? Basicly that happened when YY got nerfed. It had very high WR, but dropped a lot after the nerf. The nerf itself wasnt the only reason, but good players not playing it anymore also added to that.

[Pikkozoikum]

6 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

How do you check the server averages in general?

 

World of tanks has this and the server average winrate for the EU server there is 48.82% plus 811 wn8, Although recent active is 49.61% and wn8 is 1089 and current recent is 50.11% and wn8 is 1213.

 

This is from WotLabs, doesnt wows-numbers have something similar?

 

https://wotlabs.net/

 

I used this site alot when i still played the game.

What do you mean exactly? Wow numbers shows a lot of average statistics? ^^

Also shouldn'T be the average alsways 50%? Guess it'S 48 because of hidden stats?

[AndyHill]

4 minutes ago, veslingr said:

So basically you do not care that in same tier you have one cv that does 10 k dmg with rockets, solitd TB and drops 4 precise AP bombs and in same time you have cv that drops 2 ap bombs that fly all over place. Rockets do 2k dmg and torpeso have 850 meter activation radius. You do not care? You want those 2 put under same discussion?

Sure, depending on the situation. But when it's all about one class being op or bad for the game, the win rate of a single ship doesn't matter much. Also you do realize that the fact that the carriers are as balanced as they are (at T10 at least) also confirms that we are indeed talking about an entire class of ships, not any specific one?

6 minutes ago, veslingr said:

So also when we talk about cruiser we should put Hindengurg and Smolensk in same balance sentence?

Let's try: "In the current meta Hindengurg isn't as strong as Smolensk."

[El2aZeR]

15 minutes ago, veslingr said:

But that fact do not shows us influence of game. Take Stalingrad for instance. Who does it shoot most? Is it HE or AP? What's stats shows? Inconclusive isnt it? 

 

A combination of high average damage and high KPM equals high effective damage. High effective damage equals high game influence.

 

If we take Stalingrad, we can assume due to its limited playerbase and means of distribution that the average Stalingrad player is far more skilled, thus making any comparison to Haku moot in the first place.

Therefore, due to the higher average skill, we can also conclude that Stalin will shoot DDs and cruisers primarily which will often be done with AP. Stalingrad is likewise adept at fighting BBs with the same AP shells.

This in turn is reflected by high average damage and high KPM.

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

 

So you choose to evade the question at hand, but try to pull a strawman

Whether DDs can have a higher WR compared to CVs is also irrelevant, as we already figured out, CV WR is useless.

DDs have a high influence on the outcome of the game. Only because majority of CV players is incapable to deal with DDs, is it possible for good DD players to still influence the game despite having a CV in game (and not every game has a CV in it.. but almost these days). Also, if you are better / the DD you are playing is stronger than other DDs in the game, you will still win more often.

Kleber is still kinda new, and its not a traditional DD. Bad players will stay away from it, because they cant make it work. French DDs have a high skill ceiling.

Daring on the other hand, is extremely good fighting other DDs. Simply for that reason, it will have a higher WR. If im not specifically grinding any ship, and winning is my main objective, i most likely will pick a ship which can get me the win. If i would have all DDs, why should i pick one which is inferior to another? Basicly that happened when YY got nerfed. It had very high WR, but dropped a lot after the nerf. The nerf itself wasnt the only reason, but good players not playing it anymore also added to that.

so basically everything is irrelevant that do not fit your narrative that has basically 0 stat support?

[AndyHill]

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Guess it'S 48 because of hidden stats?

Draw counts as a not-win for everyone involved.