CV Rework Discussion

[AndyHill]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

only Cvis not comletly dominant class and it does not wipe all other ships and games do not end 1vs1....really no pint in answering this.

That is why it was a thought experiment demonstrating what would happen IF carriers were completely dominant. The answer will demonstrate what happens if ANY class dominates, which makes it entirely relevant. However, I will rephrase it slightly to be more compatible with your views, hopefully you are now able to answer it. Here goes:

 

1) In a game called World of Warships there are two teams, each with one CV, one BB, one CACL and one DD. CVs have super unicum players and 19 point captains in them and in every match the CVs wipe out all the other classes and then proceed to fight each other to see who wins. Draws are not possible, one team always wins and one loses. What is the average win ratio for CVs, BBs, CACLs and DDs after

a) one battle

b) 2956890 battles

[Skurfa]

I cannot find out if it’s the number of CV’s at low level that is rising, or a combination of falling BB/CL/DD population.... but right now you rarely get a game without 2 CV’s on each side, and ever so often you end up in qeue dumps with 3 CV’s a side and 3-4 other ships....

 

CV’s are overrepresented down there.... or so it seems.

[veslingr]

2 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

That is why it was a thought experiment demonstrating what would happen IF carriers were completely dominant. The answer will demonstrate what happens if ANY  class dominates , which makes it entirely relevant. However, I will rephrase it slightly to be more compatible with your views, hopefully you are now able to answer it. Here goes:

 

1) In a game called World of Warships there are two teams, each with one CV, one BB, one CACL and one DD. CVs have super unicum players and 19 point captains in them and in every match the CVs wipe out all the other classes and then proceed to fight each other to see who wins. Draws are not possible, one team always wins and one loses. What is the average win ratio for CVs, BBs, CACLs and DDs after

a) one battle

b) 2956890 battles

There is problem, no class is dominant...but we do have dominant ships that pushes their sides to win...thats why some ships are toping meter and others do not. 

 

[El2aZeR]

8 hours ago, veslingr said:

Which is not reflection into WR.

 

I know your answer - mirror.....but now all classes have mirror.

 

There are no statistical date that would show that DMG of haku is more effective.....it is oulny guess that haku players more farm DDs than BBs...but not single stat confirms this theory....especially that we know how player base is not great and how it is easier to hit BBs than dd

 

Ffs do you even read?

All classes are mirrored, yes. All other classes also have far more T10 ships which allows a higher variance in WR. T10 CVs only have 3, inevitably skewing WR towards 50%.

 

Kills per match statistic is a valuable indicator in effective damage, as such Haku outperforms even widely considered op ships.

[veslingr]

4 minutes ago, Skurfa said:

I cannot find out if it’s the number of CV’s at low level that is rising, or a combination of falling BB/CL/DD population.... but right now you rarely get a game without 2 CV’s on each side, and ever so often you end up in qeue dumps with 3 CV’s a side and 3-4 other ships....

 

CV’s are overrepresented down there.... or so it seems.

Number of played games of CV is rising...t6 example

[AndyHill]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

There is problem, no class is dominant...but we do have dominant ships that pushes their sides to win...thats why some ships are toping meter and others do not. 

Ok, we can start with the basic case that showcases the basic situation and then move to the case where one class might be dominant. I hope you can now answer the completely neutral case question:

 

1) In a game called World of Warships there are two teams, each with one CV, one BB, one CACL and one DD. All classes are perfectly balanced. Draws are not possible, one team always wins and one loses. What is the average win ratio for CVs, BBs, CACLs and DDs after

a) one battle

b) 2956890 battles

[Capra76]

2 minutes ago, veslingr said:

There is problem, no class is dominant...but we do have dominant ships that pushes their sides to win...thats why some ships are toping meter and others do not. 

 

 

Stop evading the issue.

 

You know perfectly well that the answer is 50% for one game and every game and thus WR% is utterly irrelevant when discussing the power of any class as a whole.

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Ffs do you even read?

All classes are mirrored, yes. All other classes also have far more T10 ships which allows a higher variance in WR. T10 CVs only have 3, inevitably skewing WR towards 50%.

 

Kills per match statistic is a valuable indicator in effective damage, as such Haku outperforms even widely considered op ships.

Cvs are the single most effective ship to finish oponents.....still it do not show how exactly % of dmg they did to that ship.

 

 

 

 

[veslingr]

3 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Ok, we can start with the basic case that showcases the basic situation and then move to the case where one class might be dominant. I hope you can now answer the completely neutral case question:

 

1) In a game called World of Warships there are two teams, each with one CV, one BB, one CACL and one DD. All classes are perfectly balanced. Draws are not possible, one team always wins and one loses. What is the average win ratio for CVs, BBs, CACLs and DDs after

a) one battle

b) 2956890 battles

Lets try reall case.

 

2 teams, CV, BB, CA, CL......so thre are 2 cvs, 2 BBs, 2 CA, 2 Cl...and we have 2 OP (lets say 1 C and 1 DD)....what is WR after 1000 games of every single ship? And who will have highest WR?

 

This is more real scenario

[veslingr]

6 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

Stop evading the issue.

 

You know perfectly well that the answer is 50% for one game and every game and thus WR% is utterly irrelevant when discussing the power of any class as a whole.

that is one big bullcrap.....thiking WR is irrelevant FOR A HIP is just...well....bad mate....really bad.

 

AND WE DO NOT EVER TALK ABOUT CLASS but ships....ffs.....get that? Sngle ship with its name and class....not whle class...but shingle class.

I did not put Classes average of TX but ships averages...comme on..this is clear to anybody in 4th grade

 

 

[AndyHill]

Ok, I can answer that. After 1000 games (assuming even distribution of classes and no draws) the average winrate for CVs is 50%, for BBs it's 50%, for CAs it's 50% and for DDs it's 50%. Hopefully you can now answer my most recent version, I'll just copy paste it here to make things simpler:

 

1) In a game called World of Warships there are two teams, each with one CV, one BB, one CACL and one DD. All classes are perfectly balanced. Draws are not possible, one team always wins and one loses. What is the average win ratio for CVs, BBs, CACLs and DDs after

a) one battle

b) 2956890 battles

[veslingr]

2 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Ok, I can answer that. After 1000 games (assuming even distribution of classes and no draws) the average winrate for CVs is 50%, for BBs it's 50%, for CAs it's 50% and for DDs it's 50%. Hopefully you can now answer my most recent version, I'll just copy paste it here to make things simpler:

 

1) In a game called World of Warships there are two teams, each with one CV, one BB, one CACL and one DD. All classes are perfectly balanced. Draws are not possible, one team always wins and one loses. What is the average win ratio for CVs, BBs, CACLs and DDs after

a) one battle

b) 2956890 battles

No No No.

i am not talking about classes but about single ships.

 

and your answer is wrong....OP ships will have higher than 50%

 

Ships not classes....pls point me where did i ever talk about WHOLE class and not single ships?

 

[AndyHill]

24 minutes ago, veslingr said:

AND WE DO NOT EVER TALK ABOUT CLASS but ships....ffs.....get that?

No, we are specifically not doing that. This discussion is about carriers in general, not any single specific one. There are specific threads for Smolensk, Stalingrad, Enterprise and other ships considered potentially OP. This thread is about the entire class of ships and their effect on the game, not about any single carrier being OP compared to other carriers (although that discussion is also somewhat relevant for the thread).

[AndyHill]

Just now, veslingr said:

Ships not classes....pls point me where did i ever talk about WHOLE class and not single ships?

This thread is discussion about a specific class of ships, not a specific ship. I'm now very curious to hear why you think it's in any way relevant if one carrier is massively op compared to other carriers?

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

These numbers show absolutely nothing. Or better: they show CVs inferior to BBs in terms of damage 

 

Power progression is somewhat linear, making your argument moot.

Unless ofc you want to contest that?

 

2 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

while that is partially true there is another aspect which is timing. CVs tend to make a lot of damage towards the end of the game when blobs split up and AA is worn down.

 

Except we know that the early game impact is extremely high as well, as is the mid game.

Besides, being able to clean up the enemy late game guarantees a victory as it prevents the enemy from making a comeback, as such is far more valuable than you make it out to be.

 

 

[veslingr]

Just now, AndyHill said:

No, we are specifically not doing that. This discussion is about carriers in general, not any single specific one. There are specific threads for Smolensk, Stalingrad, Enterprise and other ships considered potentially OP. This thread is about the entire class of ships and their effect on the game, not about any single carrier being O pcompared to other carriers (although that discussion is also somewhat relevant for the thread).

oh yes...i posted ships ratings, not class ratings.

 

we can talk ships...others can cry about theirs 44% WR and try to explain how whole class dominates them...whiners are unlimited in whining

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, AndyHill said:

This thread is discussion about a specific class of ships, not a specific ship. I'm now very curious to hear why you think it's in any way relevant if one carrier is massively op compared to other carriers?

it is all relavent..thats why some of CVs are removed from game...becasue they dominated all over other cvs and other ships...you know BigE.

 

go compare resaults of good players in Big E and GZ and look how thier statd decline rapidly in GZ over BigE....shp matters, not class

[El2aZeR]

10 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Cvs are the single most effective ship to finish oponents.....still it do not show how exactly % of dmg they did to that ship.

 

If CVs were only finishing off ships then their average damage would be low, yet that is not the case.

Besides, CVs are just as adept at preparing a kill as securing it.

[AndyHill]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

it is all relavent..thats why some of CVs are removed from game...becasue they dominated all over other cvs and other ships...you know BigE.

 

go compare resaults of good players in Big E and GZ and look how thier statd decline rapidly in GZ over BigE....shp matters, not class

Ok I'm officially completely confused now. This discussion is specifically about carriers as a whole being good or bad for the game. Do you think that the average win rate for the class or the win rate for any single carrier is relevant to that question and if so, why?

[Pikkozoikum]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

 

1.

Aircraft Destroyed Marking is Correct.

You Disagreeing with it its Relevance is not my Concern.

2.

I actually had one during my 2 Weeks off a bit over a Week ago when I played at 5 in the Morning.

It also is not exactly a Secret or something worth Contesting. But in 2 Weeks I got another Week off (I have to get all my Overtime and Free Days out before End of the Year...) so then I might get another Match like this and give you a Screenshot.

3.

Again. Thats just Hypocrisy. Because as a DD. I will have much more Damage in Average in Games where I dont have CVs. Than I will have in the Games where a CV is Present. Same for Cruisers and even for BBs in most Cases.

Likewise BBs will Profit Greatly from a Game where only 1 DD is Present compared to Games where 4 DDs are Present.

So by your Logic you can Completely Ignore All Statistics because they are all Played in differing Boundaries.

Yet you Include those Games. Thats what General Statistics Do. They dont Account for Specific Situations they give you a Picture of the General Performance of that Class.

And that Includes Aircraft Kills.

4.

No Instead you are Slowly Tortured to Death by an Enemy which you cant do anything about. Thats sooo much better.

Sorry but I actually prefer RTS. In RTS doing such a Oneshot as a CV Required you to Achieve Air Superiority and then Prepare Squadrons for nearly 5 Minutes before you could Finally Launch such an Alpha Strike.

So for 5 Minutes I could Play Completely Peacefully and IF a CV Got me with that Strike I at least was Dead and could go for the Next Game.

And whats most Importand. If I had DFAA or a Cruiser had DFAA or my CV Paid Attention. I could usually Evade a Lethal Strike. Meaning I might still take some Damage. But nothing I cant make up for. And the CV after that needed another 5 Minutes if he wanted to do a Big Strike like that.

Long Story Short. I COULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT ATTACK OF THE CV!!!!

Compare that to now.

Now as a BB if the CV Dislikes me. He will come and Bomb me about 90 Seconds into the Game. Do maybe 20k Damage to me in 30-40 Seconds. And then another 90 Seconds Later he will be Back again doing the same.

And he can Keep doing this until I am Dead.

Do you know how many Times I was basicly in Endgame of a Match. And basicly had the CV from somewhere 30km away just Bomb me. Again and Again Leisurely Killing me with me his Squadrons and with me of course Surviving 5 Minutes due to him not being able to just Alpha Strike me. But at the same time me not being able to really do anything about it ?

THAT IS HUNDRED TIMES MORE FRUSTRATING THAN BEING ALPHA STRIKED!!!!

5.

Damage actually has no high Value at all. Because BBs get a very High Average Damage from Fighting other BBs and the Occassional Cruiser Critical Hit. Its mostly not Game Deciding Damage.

The Damage on CVs is actually Worth 100 times more because its Damage on Relevant Targets of Choice. Eliminating a Target as Shown by the higher Kill Ratio. Or Dealing Damage to Small Targets others cannot Attack so easily like DDs.

But again. This is General Statistics. So all Statistics have to be used. Otherwise its Dishonest.

The 3 Stats saying the Most about Game Influence are Clearly Capping, Base Defense and Kills per Match. And Guess what. CV is best in 2 of them.

But here is the thing. DDs Pay for this one Game Influence Stat by having most of their Personal Combat Stats Reduced. Like Damage, Kills etc.

And Personal Combat Stats are also Importand.

But CVs are actually Excelling in 2 out of 3 Win Game Stats AND ON TOP OF THAT have the Best Personal Combat Stats.

BBs are basicly the Juggernauts. Great Combat Abilities but Little Game Influence.

Cruisers are the Support Class being a Balance in Influence and Combat Power.

And DDs are Pure Influence Class with Weakest Combat Power.

But CVs ?

CVs are EVERYTHING. They are Strongest Combat Power AND Strongest Influence right now.

6.

The Suggestion Thread is for getting WGs Attention with the Suggestion. Not for Discussing it. If you want to Discuss a Specific Suggestion you make an own Topic for it.

And yes you can Discuss it here. But I wont because Nobody of Importance Reads it here :P

1. Yes, showing the highest number might be correct. But it shows a stupid number, which says nothing. Or explain me, what does it show exaclty? That a CV is the best in shooting down planes? Proof that.

2. I would like to see that, never have seen that or seen a screenshot of that.

3. I would rather go with the logic, that all the stats are irrelevant, then agreeing with the aircraft destroyed. But also there is a difference in aircraft destroyed and dealing damage.

You have the same potential for doing the damage, when having a CV or not a CV in the match. The max damage could be also higher, since a CV has more HP than a DD or cruiser. But the potential of shooting down an Aircraft without a CV is way lower. With a CV you can shoot down 100 planes. Withotu CV you might be able to shoot down a spotter or catapult fighter. You can do your 200k damage in CV match, but you can't do 80 plane kills in non-CV match (fake matches, where 10 ships launch all their catapults don't count ;) )

It's not about your personal perfmance, that you play worse with a CV, it's about the boundary conditions.

 

When we would do a 100 meter race. I have 100% winrate, and you 0% over 100 races. Then you would get the suggestion, that i'm better. But when you have to wear 50kg of weight in every race, then the boundary conditions are different from the beginning and it's not a fair comparison for who is better. A fair comparison is only possible under fair conditions.

4. That discussion is repetitive. I don't like if one CV dominates over the other and then dev strikes one after another. If you get tortured by CVs, well, That happens to me more rare than RTS matches happens. I saw RTS unicums dropping in their winrates with rework, it's nice, that those don'T decide the game like they did before in RTS:

5. There is a statistic about, with increasing damage, the winrate increases. Yes damage is not an important stat... xD

Damage and capping is game deciding. The CV has so high kill rate, because he can finish off targets. but guess what, without enough damage, there won't be tragets to finish off ;)

6. If you don't want talk about that suggestion, then don't do it? xD

[Aixin]

We all now it.... 8.6 aa.... It was more balanced as its now but hey bad players could not do ****. That's why they had to buff cvs... I started.to play cvs in 8.5 and had more fun than now. Back then it was way more difficult. But since 8.7 it's much easier....but hey since 8.7 gz can be played😂

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, AndyHill said:

Ok I'm officially completely confused now. This discussion is specifically about carriers as a whole being good or bad for the game. Do you think that the average win rate for the class or the win rate for any single carrier is relevant to that question and if so, why?

I assume he means, that winrate is an important stat. 

But the winrate for a ship type like CV, BB etc is irrelevant, imo

[veslingr]

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

If CVs were only finishing off ships then their average damage would be low, yet that is not the case.

Besides, CVs are just as adept at preparing a kill as securing it.

They can do both. We do not have solid stat that shows us what proportions are really. Base exp would be good. Sadly we do not have it

[Elypse201]

But serious fun aside WG you had your fun with the rework (1st April is over by now i guess), when we are getting the good old CV's back ?

[Rionnen_marksman]

2 minutes ago, Elypse201 said:

But serious fun aside WG you had your fun with the rework (1st April is over by now i guess), when we are getting the good old CV's back ?

We’re not.

 

 

go play wows CN :)