CV Rework Discussion

[1MajorKoenig]

31 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

It's about WHERE damage is put. How many times on this thread does that NEED to be pointed out. CV's put their damage into far more valuable targets.

 

That's why A) CV wins games and B) makes them the strongest class of all. 

while that is partially true there is another aspect which is timing. CVs tend to make a lot of damage towards the end of the game when blobs split up and AA is worn down. Partially that is „cleaning house“ only and not necessarily „valuable“ damage as you put it. 
 

But I agree that these factors need to be considered on top of pure numbers

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

1.

I checked and cant find any Wrong Markings. If you found any Feel Free to Point it out. 

2.

Win and Loss is Neglectable. But not Irrelevant :)

The Higher Win Rate of CVs as a Class Stems from the Latenight Matches when the MM Starts Crumbling due to Lack of Players and at some Point thus Shoves a CV which he cannot Match into a Game where only 1 Team then has a CV.

Needless to mention that these Games are pretty much Guaranteed Win for the CV. Hence giving him the Minimal Winrate Advantage.

Due to these Matches even at late Night being an Rarity this will of course not Diverge from the 50% too Far.

By the way before you Ask. The Reason that the High Tier in General has Positive and the Low Tier (except CV) negative. Is for the same Reason. When the MM Crumbles and Stops being able to Match the Same Tier Ships the Low Tiers will often Suffer from it.

3.

Thats Irrelevant. After all we also Count the other Statistics from BBs and especially from DDs which they Achieve in Matches with no CVs Present.

So Cutting out a Statistic just because it for a change does Favors the CV would be Hypocritical.

4.

CVs have been Overpowered in RTS already. So no Surprises there.

5.

As I said quite a few Times. If CVs were only Excelling in one Stat. Then I would Agree. That this wont make them OP. Thats why DDs for example WHICH ONLY Excell in Spotting and Base Capture compared to other Classes. Are not OP.

Thats just what they Specialize in.

But CVs do not Excel in one Stat. They Excel in almost ALL Stats.

And that is in Fact an Extremely Clear Indicator that they are Overpowered.

6.

I.ll Ignore the Rest because Suggestions should be Discussed Seperately with the Detailed Suggestion and a Proper Topic to Discuss them. Not in a mashup Topic like this.

1. Aircraft destroyed e.g.

2. Can you show me such matches? When I played late night, I always had even matches. Always same number of CVs, BBs, cruisers and DDs.

3. Are you talking about Aircraft destroyed? The statistic is stupid, because it doesn't show the performance.... When I have 100 matches wihtout Cv in a BB, and one match with a CV where I shot down 100 planes, then I have an average of 1 aircraft shot down... But a Cv, who shot down 2 planes each match (with a CV, because he will always face a CV every match) will have in the statistic a 2 aircraft destroyed. That would suggerate, that the CV is twice as good as the BB with 100 aircraft kills...

To compare statisic you need the same boundary conditions... that are not given.

4. Well, imo it's more about, if it's enjoyable or not. When I play a support in LoL then assasines are OP for me to, but team-wise they're not. I see that same with CVs and surface ships. I didn't enjoyed fighting against CVs, it was just terrible. Sometimes unavoidalbe oneshots. I remember where I had a Tirpitz around me, I was in Nagao, and a crusiers with not op-aa was around. The CV one shotted first Tirpitz, then me. That never happend with Rework

5. The different stats are not with an even value. Survived and Kill/Death ratio doesn't have the same value like damage. So jsut saying "they are good in many stats" doesn'T make them OP. DDs are often the game-maker just because of capping. One stat, which makes the win.

6. it's a discussion thread, so everything can be discussed, that is related to the Rework. There is a suggestion thread, where discussions are not allowed.

 

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

they show CVs inferior to BBs in terms of damage 

 

So how about we buff DD average damage to match that of Cruisers/BBs. Nothing wrong with that? Just dont overtake BBs, apparently thats a no-no...

[Sunleader]

 

13 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

1. Aircraft destroyed e.g.

2. Can you show me such matches? When I played late night, I always had even matches. Always same number of CVs, BBs, cruisers and DDs.

3. Are you talking about Aircraft destroyed? The statistic is stupid, because it doesn't show the performance.... When I have 100 matches wihtout Cv in a BB, and one match with a CV where I shot down 100 planes, then I have an average of 1 aircraft shot down... But a Cv, who shot down 2 planes each match (with a CV, because he will always face a CV every match) will have in the statistic a 2 aircraft destroyed. That would suggerate, that the CV is twice as good as the BB with 100 aircraft kills...

To compare statisic you need the same boundary conditions... that are not given.

4. Well, imo it's more about, if it's enjoyable or not. When I play a support in LoL then assasines are OP for me to, but team-wise they're not. I see that same with CVs and surface ships. I didn't enjoyed fighting against CVs, it was just terrible. Sometimes unavoidalbe oneshots. I remember where I had a Tirpitz around me, I was in Nagao, and a crusiers with not op-aa was around. The CV one shotted first Tirpitz, then me. That never happend with Rework

5. The different stats are not with an even value. Survived and Kill/Death ratio doesn't have the same value like damage. So jsut saying "they are good in many stats" doesn'T make them OP. DDs are often the game-maker just because of capping. One stat, which makes the win.

6. it's a discussion thread, so everything can be discussed, that is related to the Rework. There is a suggestion thread, where discussions are not allowed.

 

 

1.

Aircraft Destroyed Marking is Correct.

You Disagreeing with it its Relevance is not my Concern.

2.

I actually had one during my 2 Weeks off a bit over a Week ago when I played at 5 in the Morning.

It also is not exactly a Secret or something worth Contesting. But in 2 Weeks I got another Week off (I have to get all my Overtime and Free Days out before End of the Year...) so then I might get another Match like this and give you a Screenshot.

3.

Again. Thats just Hypocrisy. Because as a DD. I will have much more Damage in Average in Games where I dont have CVs. Than I will have in the Games where a CV is Present. Same for Cruisers and even for BBs in most Cases.

Likewise BBs will Profit Greatly from a Game where only 1 DD is Present compared to Games where 4 DDs are Present.

So by your Logic you can Completely Ignore All Statistics because they are all Played in differing Boundaries.

Yet you Include those Games. Thats what General Statistics Do. They dont Account for Specific Situations they give you a Picture of the General Performance of that Class.

And that Includes Aircraft Kills.

4.

No Instead you are Slowly Tortured to Death by an Enemy which you cant do anything about. Thats sooo much better.

Sorry but I actually prefer RTS. In RTS doing such a Oneshot as a CV Required you to Achieve Air Superiority and then Prepare Squadrons for nearly 5 Minutes before you could Finally Launch such an Alpha Strike.

So for 5 Minutes I could Play Completely Peacefully and IF a CV Got me with that Strike I at least was Dead and could go for the Next Game.

And whats most Importand. If I had DFAA or a Cruiser had DFAA or my CV Paid Attention. I could usually Evade a Lethal Strike. Meaning I might still take some Damage. But nothing I cant make up for. And the CV after that needed another 5 Minutes if he wanted to do a Big Strike like that.

Long Story Short. I COULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT ATTACK OF THE CV!!!!

Compare that to now.

Now as a BB if the CV Dislikes me. He will come and Bomb me about 90 Seconds into the Game. Do maybe 20k Damage to me in 30-40 Seconds. And then another 90 Seconds Later he will be Back again doing the same.

And he can Keep doing this until I am Dead.

Do you know how many Times I was basicly in Endgame of a Match. And basicly had the CV from somewhere 30km away just Bomb me. Again and Again Leisurely Killing me with me his Squadrons and with me of course Surviving 5 Minutes due to him not being able to just Alpha Strike me. But at the same time me not being able to really do anything about it ?

THAT IS HUNDRED TIMES MORE FRUSTRATING THAN BEING ALPHA STRIKED!!!!

5.

Damage actually has no high Value at all. Because BBs get a very High Average Damage from Fighting other BBs and the Occassional Cruiser Critical Hit. Its mostly not Game Deciding Damage.

The Damage on CVs is actually Worth 100 times more because its Damage on Relevant Targets of Choice. Eliminating a Target as Shown by the higher Kill Ratio. Or Dealing Damage to Small Targets others cannot Attack so easily like DDs.

But again. This is General Statistics. So all Statistics have to be used. Otherwise its Dishonest.

The 3 Stats saying the Most about Game Influence are Clearly Capping, Base Defense and Kills per Match. And Guess what. CV is best in 2 of them.

But here is the thing. DDs Pay for this one Game Influence Stat by having most of their Personal Combat Stats Reduced. Like Damage, Kills etc.

And Personal Combat Stats are also Importand.

But CVs are actually Excelling in 2 out of 3 Win Game Stats AND ON TOP OF THAT have the Best Personal Combat Stats.

BBs are basicly the Juggernauts. Great Combat Abilities but Little Game Influence.

Cruisers are the Support Class being a Balance in Influence and Combat Power.

And DDs are Pure Influence Class with Weakest Combat Power.

But CVs ?

CVs are EVERYTHING. They are Strongest Combat Power AND Strongest Influence right now.

6.

The Suggestion Thread is for getting WGs Attention with the Suggestion. Not for Discussing it. If you want to Discuss a Specific Suggestion you make an own Topic for it.

And yes you can Discuss it here. But I wont because Nobody of Importance Reads it here :P

[Pikkozoikum]

8 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

So how about we buff DD average damage to match that of Cruisers/BBs. Nothing wrong with that? Just dont overtake BBs, apparently thats a no-no...

I would say, that DDs have a high damage potential, but it's not consistent because of Torpedos^^

Just watched Flambass statistics with DDs. Almost 300k with Fletcher is Record. the only CV that came close for his statistic was the Hakuryu, but I believe that was early stage, were Haku was OP :D

[Prospect_b]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

Unexpected ^^

But Respect for the Honesty.

Respect for the honesty? Are you kidding me? Coming from the guy who announced pulling back the Enterprise in a riddle that would have made the Theban sphinx proud...

 

29 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

So how about we buff DD average damage to match that of Cruisers/BBs. Nothing wrong with that? Just dont overtake BBs, apparently thats a no-no... 

As if that's ever gonna happen. The game has been going the anti-DD way for quite a while now. The ever increase of ships with radar, specialized anti-DD ships (ijn gun-DD line, US light cruisers, etc), carriers being intentionally developped in a anti-DD-influence role (see the flamu youtube vid about the st-petersburg meeting), italian cruisers being useless/redundant in any role except killing DDs, etc etc

 

As long as CVs (among others) keep the DDs in check, which in turn makes BBKevin very happy, nothing will ever change about them.

 

Nice to see we are approaching 500 pages though. Certainly had a lot of influence on weegee...

[Sunleader]

4 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Respect for the honesty? Are you kidding me? Coming from the guy who announced pulling back the Enterprise in a riddle that would have made the Theban sphinx proud...

 

The Respect for Honesty was on this Post. In which he Confirms to my Post pretty Clearly.

And what I said was in absolutely no way Subtle or a Riddle either. I said really Clearly and Openly why Enterprise was Removed.

 

 

 

I see no Reason to not Pay Respect for an Honest Statement just because earlier Statements might not have been as Open.

[MrFingers]

5 hours ago, MrConway said:

You are unfortunately right, she turned out to be too strong which is why we had to pull her from sale.

Does that, officially, mean she's joined the likes of Kamikaze, Kutuzov, Impregnator,...?

[CptBarney]

3 minutes ago, MrFingers said:

 Impregnator,...?

wut?

[Prospect_b]

1 minute ago, CptBarney said:

wut?

Imperator nikolai. OP russian tier 4 battleboat. Way less OP as used to be since no AA and 3 carriers per game.

 

See? WG does fix overpoweredness....

[AndyHill]

7 hours ago, veslingr said:

Limited ships (some of them) have 3x games than CV.....right now they are not "few and sometimes"....infact they have more impact over game becasue much more peoples have nad play Stalin and rest than CV. 

The thing with "limited ships" isn't the number of games played, but the entry cost. Thus for example steel ships and currently probably RB ships as well are played mostly by people who needed to either play lots of ranked or clan wars or have shiploads of freeXP. People have had 4 years to grind T10 carriers so they are not exactly exclusive AND there are people playing T10 carriers (like I did) who have never played the modern iteration before (except for a few quick games on the test server in my case). 

7 hours ago, veslingr said:

Dds are mirrored too and we can see something from their WR rating

What exactly can we see from their winrates and how is it relevant to this discussion?

[DFens_666]

5 hours ago, MrConway said:

 

You are unfortunately right, she turned out to be too strong which is why we had to pull her from sale.

 

Good that Enterprise got buffed several times before that... for no apparent reason even ?

Will we see Enterprise in this years XMas Boxes?

[DFens_666]

11 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Imperator nikolai. OP russian tier 4 battleboat. Way less OP as used to be since no AA and 3 carriers per game.

 

See? WG does fix overpoweredness....

 

Oh dear lord... imagine whats coming to fix 3 CVs

[ForlornSailor]

3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

imagine whats coming to fix 3 CVs

Ill raise you... 9 Subs?

[CptBarney]

22 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

Imperator nikolai. OP russian tier 4 battleboat. Way less OP as used to be since no AA and 3 carriers per game.

 

See? WG does fix overpoweredness....

I guess the same could be said for wurld of danks.

 

Imagine an fps shooter by wargaming lol. Hey you could even try their pagen online rpg game based on slavic folkheroes i think or something.

[BLUB__BLUB]

8 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

Ill raise you... 9 Subs?

Correct answer! 

[veslingr]

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Except that is only Half of the Truth as Usual.

Because CVs are not only Equaling BBs in Damage and Kills which DDs and Cruisers cannot even reach close to. They also Equal Cruisers in Aircraft Kills and Base Defense which BBs and DDs can only Dream about and DDs in Spotting which both Cruisers and BBs can only Dream about.

 

And No. This is not Ok.

 

If CVs would ONLY Equal BBs and thus Effectively be Damage Dealers who do Average Damage like BBs but be Inferior to Cruisers and DDs in their Respective Specialties.

Then this would be fine. Because then a CV would Effectively just be a Sniper of Sorts.

 

But thats not the Case. CVs right now are the Absolute Best at pretty much Everything.

 

 

 

did you really used low/high tier stats and want to look serious? :)

 

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

 

So how about we buff DD average damage to match that of Cruisers/BBs. Nothing wrong with that? Just dont overtake BBs, apparently thats a no-no...

 

I know that you try to joke but I will Nevertheless point out the obvious and tell you that DD survival rate is rather low which naturally drags down the average. 

 

 

[CptBarney]

Well miss cv thread will have her 500 page birthday!

 

@Yoshanai make sure you get her something nice and dont let dat butt fairy in again.

 

 

Also does anyone reckon wargaming will do a funny and buff anymoar cv’s? 

[veslingr]

57 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

The thing with "limited ships" isn't the number of games played, but the entry cost. Thus for example steel ships and currently probably RB ships as well are played mostly by people who needed to either play lots of ranked or clan wars or have shiploads of freeXP. People have had 4 years to grind T10 carriers so they are not exactly exclusive AND there are people playing T10 carriers (like I did) who have never played the modern iteration before (except for a few quick games on the test server in my case). 

What exactly can we see from their winrates and how is it relevant to this discussion?

Do you really ask me how WR is relevant to discussion about balance? Most important stat in game? :)

[AndyHill]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Do you really ask me how WR is relevant to discussion about balance? Most important stat in game? :)

Yes I do. Should be easy to explain, right?

[veslingr]

Just now, AndyHill said:

Yes I do. Should be easy to explain, right?

I thought is is selfexplanetory. 

 

Ship that has highest WR in relevant number of games is strongest ship in tier. 

 

All the dmg, tanking, caping, spoting is finally boils to did you win or not

[AndyHill]

Strongest ship in its class on its tier, when matchmaker matches ship classes evenly. Here's a simple thought experiment to demonstrate the issue; imagine you are in a final exam for the "Introduction to statistics and probabilities" course and you are presented with the following question:

 

1) In a game called World of Warships there are two teams, each with one CV, one BB, one CACL and one DD. CV is the completely dominant class and in every match the CVs wipe out all the other classes and then proceed to fight each other to see who wins. Draws are not possible, one team always wins and one loses. What is the average win ratio for CVs, BBs, CACLs and DDs after

a) one battle

b) 2956890 battles

[DFens_666]

29 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I know that you try to joke but I will Nevertheless point out the obvious and tell you that DD survival rate is rather low which naturally drags down the average.

 

Well, on average i would agree. But i think, thats the bad DD players often dragging it down, because they basicly dont have any survivability at all

If i look at my stats from this year, i got 67% survivability with BBs and DDs, but only 65% with Cruisers. At the same time, my average DD damage is 40k less than Cruisers, and less than half of BBs. Sure, average tier of my DD play is 6,9, while both others are ~8, so it makes a little bit difference.

With BBs and Cruisers i dont rely as much on the enemies being stupid to get my damage. With DDs, you kinda have to hope for the enemy to allow you to get damage in on him.

 

What i was going for is, that DDs have the lowest damage for a reason: They have a high impact on the game because of their role. BBs can have higher damage, because they otherwise are lacking in game influence.

CVs on the other hand, have the ability to kill DDs at will (basicly). So they remove a class, which has a high influence on the outcome of the game, which makes them having a huge influence aswell! Not to mention, their damage capabilty are unrivaled by any other class. The DPM from CVs might be lower compared to others, but its pretty much guaranteed/sustained. If i play a Cruiser with shortrange, i need the enemy to get into my range so i can farm them. While my DPM is high if i can shoot, it can also be 0 for a certain period of the game, if i need to reposition or the enemy is running away. Good positioning certainly increases the damage capabilty of other ships, but CVs dont need to think of that really.

[veslingr]

13 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Strongest ship in its class on its tier, when matchmaker matches ship classes evenly. Here's a simple thought experiment to demonstrate the issue; imagine you are in a final exam for the "Introduction to statistics and probabilities" course and you are presented with the following question:

 

1) In a game called World of Warships there are two teams, each with one CV, one BB, one CACL and one DD. CV is the completely dominant class and in every match the CVs wipe out all the other classes and then proceed to fight each other to see who wins. Draws are not possible, one team always wins and one loses. What is the average win ratio for CVs, BBs, CACLs and DDs after

a) one battle

b) 2956890 battles

only Cvis not comletly dominant class and it does not wipe all other ships and games do not end 1vs1....really no pint in answering this. Also going for that every ship has 50% WR is just...well wrong...becasue you do not count strenght of ship and captain.

 

 

 

but lets look to WR ships in TX

 

In 4 top spots are 4 premium ships...lets say, better player got them first and are doinating tiers becasue of them beeing good captains instead ships strenght.

 

Fifth place is actualy funy one - it is OLD HAKU......but that does not shows alot, becasue than only CV had Miror, and only 2 nations

 

If we ignore old Haku there ic Cleber....DD....not premium....noobs same as pros could freexp it or fast grind it....not a single pointer that Cleber is driven by better part of players...we could geuss but do not have solid prooof.

 

Venezia - low number of games

Colbers same as other premiums

 

And again regulad DD...Daring...so top 2 "regular ships are infact DDs!

 

 

what did we learn here?

Premium ships dominates games becasue of captains (and inbuild OPnes of premum ships)

Top silver ships are DDs....funy right? unpalayble class by whiner on this forum?