CV Rework Discussion

[Trawn91]

2 minutes ago, siraiaw said:

i have seen that noobs in enterprise still won't be able to beat a good battleship, their aim can be redicoulously bad. so no a noob will not be able to beat a good player. however an ok enterprise will be able to beat a good zeppy player so you are right in that

Well, there are no limits on how bad one can be, so it is entirely possible. Now imagine Saipan vs Enterprise. Saipan is toast no matter what. You cant penetrate that T11 fighter screen, also made worse by Saipan´s plane regen if you try. On top of that, Saipan has no long range AA. 

 

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, prems that are taken away from the shop are still allowed in all the modes, there are no extra rules. Also soon is a Clan Brawl with CV, I believe one was T8

 

I don't like that either, that they don't balance the Prems.

There sould be T10 ranked with CV allowed and I am entirely OK with that. But at T8? Big no go. Enterprise will aways be better and you are hindering your team by not having it. I had really high hopes they would alter her or something to allowe her re-release but this is bad. Just recently I started to enjoy CV play, but now it is a waste of time, since I can never be competitive. I would have to hope their Enterprise is speschul. And lets face it. The day hell will freeze, and we will get T8 clan battles with CVs, that enemy Enterprise probably wont be speschul (read as idiot). As I said, at least there is Shokaku, but when dust settles down and you remained CV vc CV, you are done.

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, Trawn91 said:

There sould be T10 ranked with CV allowed and I am entirely OK with that. But at T8? Big no go. Enterprise will aways be better and you are hindering your team by not having it. I had really high hopes they would alter her or something to allowe her re-release but this is bad. Just recently I started to enjoy CV play, but now it is a waste of time, since I can never be competitive. I would have to hope their Enterprise is speschul. And lets face it. The day hell will freeze, and we will get T8 clan battles with CVs, that enemy Enterprise probably wont be speschul (read as idiot). As I said, at least there is Shokaku, but when dust settles down and you remained CV vc CV, you are done.

on T10 you have Smol, Kremlin and Stalin, which are also too strong, same counts for T8 Enterprise. There are ships which are stronger and ships which are weaker. But at the end, the player is also important, so a bad Enterprise player won't get a free win and we rarely have a skill-even match.

Though I would prefer balancing

[HaachamaShipping]

4 minutes ago, Trawn91 said:

There sould be T10 ranked with CV allowed and I am entirely OK with that. But at T8? Big no go. Enterprise will aways be better and you are hindering your team by not having it. I had really high hopes they would alter her or something to allowe her re-release but this is bad. Just recently I started to enjoy CV play, but now it is a waste of time, since I can never be competitive. I would have to hope their Enterprise is speschul. And lets face it. The day hell will freeze, and we will get T8 clan battles with CVs, that enemy Enterprise probably wont be speschul (read as idiot). As I said, at least there is Shokaku, but when dust settles down and you remained CV vc CV, you are done.

And Haku is just much better than the other two, so I guess anytime someone plays non-Haku, they are just going to gimp the team? Or what about BB players that don't play Kremlin or some other top tier choice? In Ranked, most Enterprises aren't unicum and not that much of an issue, certainly no worse compared to the other options than any removed premium was compared to others on other tiers (GC at T5, Belfast at T7). If you just try to avoid having it come down to a CV vs CV fight, you can also just spawn a fighter near Enty and watch allied BBs shoot it from afar or if you really have PTSD from the 10 fighter squad, use GZ to cheese it by outrunning them...

[Trawn91]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

on T10 you have Smol, Kremlin and Stalin, which are also too strong, same counts for T8 Enterprise. There are ships which are stronger and ships which are weaker. But at the end, the player is also important, so a bad Enterprise player won't get a free win and we rarely have a skill-even match.

Though I would prefer balancing

Yes, but there usually are multiple surface ships , which can somehow balance itself. E.g. smolensk getting radared and deleted by Stalingrad while Smol burns some BB . But since there is only 1 cv vs 1cv, you would have to have your team working double shifts to drag your disadvantage up. 

[Trawn91]

5 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

And Haku is just much better than the other two, so I guess anytime someone plays non-Haku, they are just going to gimp the team? Or what about BB players that don't play Kremlin or some other top tier choice? In Ranked, most Enterprises aren't unicum and not that much of an issue, certainly no worse compared to the other options than any removed premium was compared to others on other tiers (GC at T5, Belfast at T7). If you just try to avoid having it come down to a CV vs CV fight, you can also just spawn a fighter near Enty and watch allied BBs shoot it from afar or if you really have PTSD from the 10 fighter squad, use GZ to cheese it by outrunning them...

Well, the difference is, you can get Haku. Enterprise on the other hand... Which means if you want to be competetive, bring Haku. If you want to have fun or experiment, use other two. But with Enty, you have no such choice. I wont argue with you on this, you know what you are talking about and I agree with you. It is just that you have to come up with tactic to overcome this disadvantage. It is that said disadvatage shouldnt be even here.

[Sunleader]

3 hours ago, veslingr said:

This is reality...not potential.

 

TOP CV is in line with Yammato....and i think it is ok.

 

 

Except that is only Half of the Truth as Usual.

Because CVs are not only Equaling BBs in Damage and Kills which DDs and Cruisers cannot even reach close to. They also Equal Cruisers in Aircraft Kills and Base Defense which BBs and DDs can only Dream about and DDs in Spotting which both Cruisers and BBs can only Dream about.

 

And No. This is not Ok.

 

If CVs would ONLY Equal BBs and thus Effectively be Damage Dealers who do Average Damage like BBs but be Inferior to Cruisers and DDs in their Respective Specialties.

Then this would be fine. Because then a CV would Effectively just be a Sniper of Sorts.

 

But thats not the Case. CVs right now are the Absolute Best at pretty much Everything.

 

 

 

[Yamato942]

The day when WG decide not to nerf overpowered premium ships was the day where any balance in this game is f*cked forever. Now we have all tiers where some premium ships really too strong. Enterprise is the worst exemple.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 hours ago, MrConway said:

You are unfortunately right, she turned out to be too strong which is why we had to pull her from sale.

I have concluded that Mr Conway said it, even if some said he'd never. 

KUDOS DUE. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I guess you don't mean to repalce the bombers with Stukas? ;D

 

1 hour ago, siraiaw said:

they could do that and do it like the ark royal and make a lot of them but with low health

 

Yes, I think that would be excellent - except they don't nerf Premiums... 

So they cannot do it, unfortunately. 

[Pikkozoikum]

34 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Except that is only Half of the Truth as Usual.

Because CVs are not only Equaling BBs in Damage and Kills which DDs and Cruisers cannot even reach close to. They also Equal Cruisers in Aircraft Kills and Base Defense which BBs and DDs can only Dream about and DDs in Spotting which both Cruisers and BBs can only Dream about.

 

And No. This is not Ok.

 

If CVs would ONLY Equal BBs and thus Effectively be Damage Dealers who do Average Damage like BBs but be Inferior to Cruisers and DDs in their Respective Specialties.

Then this would be fine. Because then a CV would Effectively just be a Sniper of Sorts.

 

But thats not the Case. CVs right now are the Absolute Best at pretty much Everything.

 

 

 

You should still take out some of the markings, because they are irrelevant or wrong.

Win and lose rate is techincally balanced at 50%, the differences there are some kind of error. If one CV wins a match, another CV lost a match. It's impossible to get something else than 50%

Aircraft destroyed are also irrelevant, because a CV will always have aircrafts in his match. Other ships like BBs or cruisers have matches without aircrafts, so their number gets lowered just by the missing CV in that match. You can't compare those numbers, it's like we would do a contest of, who eats more Burgers in one month, i get every day a burger served and you only every second. ;)

 

Also it's obvious, that every stat, that is related to the speed, will go up for CVs. You can look at the RTS

Same stats high, except the base def, but the Aircraft destroyed is multiple times higher. But to be fair - CVs were more rare, so obvioulsy that number must be higher, but also we know, that the CV earlier was way better in shooting down planes. So I would clearly say, that this stat is good in RTS and low in Rework.

It's the nature of a CV to have those stat higher, that doesn't make it OP imo. Some stats like "base capture" can be way more important than "survived".

 

I said it a few times, that I woudl change the spotting mechanic for CVs, thus one stat would be at least lowered, or actually with my suggestion all stats would be lowered (adding unarmed spotter planes for CVs)

 

ps.: the newest statistic is also different. BBs with most damage e.g.

 

[siraiaw]

52 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

 

 

Yes, I think that would be excellent - except they don't nerf Premiums... 

So they cannot do it, unfortunately. 

not a nerf more of a rework, so might be possible, unless the german cv line is gonna have zeppy's sister ship, that was also called graf zeppelin, and that is gonna be the german's uniqueness, a lot of aircraft, bot lower individual damage, like a ark royal/kaga line

[siraiaw]

43 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You should still take out some of the markings, because they are irrelevant or wrong.

Win and lose rate is techincally balanced at 50%, the differences there are some kind of error. If one CV wins a match, another CV lost a match. It's impossible to get something else than 50%

Aircraft destroyed are also irrelevant, because a CV will always have aircrafts in his match. Other ships like BBs or cruisers have matches without aircrafts, so their number gets lowered just by the missing CV in that match. You can't compare those numbers, it's like we would do a contest of, who eats more Burgers in one month, i get every day a burger served and you only every second. ;)

 

Also it's obvious, that every stat, that is related to the speed, will go up for CVs. You can look at the RTS

Same stats high, except the base def, but the Aircraft destroyed is multiple times higher. But to be fair - CVs were more rare, so obvioulsy that number must be higher, but also we know, that the CV earlier was way better in shooting down planes. So I would clearly say, that this stat is good in RTS and low in Rework.

It's the nature of a CV to have those stat higher, that doesn't make it OP imo. Some stats like "base capture" can be way more important than "survived".

 

I said it a few times, that I woudl change the spotting mechanic for CVs, thus one stat would be at least lowered, or actually with my suggestion all stats would be lowered (adding unarmed spotter planes for CVs)

 

ps.: the newest statistic is also different. BBs with most damage e.g.

 

it seems that when i look at these stats, cv's has actually become weaker post rework

edit: this was wrong, they have barely changed

[1MajorKoenig]

41 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You can't compare those numbers, it's like we would do a contest of, who eats more Burgers in one month, i get every day a burger served and you only every second. ;)

There is another issue with that „average“. Higher tiers is T7+ but as we know there is no T7 and no T9 CV. Hence he compared T8+T10 average (CV) to T7+T8+T9+T10 average. In other words you would need to remove T7 and T9 from eg. BBs to even compare numbers.

 

These numbers show absolutely nothing. Or better: they show CVs inferior to BBs in terms of damage 

[Pikkozoikum]

14 minutes ago, siraiaw said:

it seems that when i look at these stats, cv's has actually become weaker post rework

edit: this was wrong, they have barely changed

Statistic wise, the damage changed, in the recent statsitic the damage of CVs is lower than the damage of BBs. But beside the statistic the gameplay changed. Imo that is the most important thing, the gameplay and how it feels to play against it. For me I enjoy playing against and as CV.

I would like to know, how people would enjoy the RTS with the same activity of the Rework, when every idk second match is with a CV.

Also funny, my highest record of spotting damage was with Taiho at 290k

[Pikkozoikum]

12 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

There is another issue with that „average“. Higher tiers is T7+ but as we know there is no T7 and no T9 CV. Hence he compared T8+T10 average (CV) to T7+T8+T9+T10 average. In other words you would need to remove T7 and T9 from eg. BBs to even compare numbers.

 

These numbers show absolutely nothing. Or better: they show CVs inferior to BBs in terms of damage 

Hmm, that's interesting, because T7 mostly do less damage than higher tiers, so the T7s are dragging the statsitics down for every ship type except CV. On the other hand T9s would pull it up.

 

e.g. showin average damage in simple and fictive numbers

 

BB

T7 -70k

T8 - 80k

T9 - 90k
T10 - 100k

average 85k

 

CV

T8 - 80k

T10 - 100k

average 90k

 

But that's of course only the theory with linear numbers, but a effect of that should appear. Though I would also assume, that the player numbers are the highes at T8

So it's most likely the question, how big is the error, is it relevant or can we ignore it

[BLUB__BLUB]

11 minutes ago, siraiaw said:

not a nerf more of a rework, so might be possible, unless the german cv line is gonna have zeppy's sister ship, that was also called graf zeppelin, and that is gonna be the german's uniqueness, a lot of aircraft, bot lower individual damage, like a ark royal/kaga line

Uhhh... if you're any good, you can do MUCH MORE damage with Ark Royal than any other T6 CV.

Same about Kaga. Ah well... 

 

But actually, yes I'd prefer to have a German CV with Stukas. Even if they are slow. 

It would be quite funny to have them slow. Then give 'em high accuracy and see what happens. 

You can alwasy BALANZ by giving them more or less planes, or damage. Or whatever. 

 

The thing is, WG cannot just re-spec or chance anything Premium. It leads to crapstorms.

Sure they could make a "new Version" and call it Peter Strasser. That was the planned name for the sister ship.

However... the Germans never had anything really for CVs. Therefore "there can be only one". 

And since they stuffed it up... 

[siraiaw]

2 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Uhhh... if you're any good, you can do MUCH MORE damage with Ark Royal than any other T6 CV.

Same about Kaga. Ah well... 

 

But actually, yes I'd prefer to have a German CV with Stukas. Even if they are slow. 

It would be quite funny to have them slow. Then give 'em high accuracy and see what happens. 

You can alwasy BALANZ by giving them more or less planes, or damage. Or whatever. 

 

The thing is, WG cannot just re-spec or chance anything Premium. It leads to crapstorms.

Sure they could make a "new Version" and call it Peter Strasser. That was the planned name for the sister ship.

However... the Germans never had anything really for CVs. Therefore "there can be only one". 

And since they stuffed it up... 

for the tier 4 and 6 carriers the germans actually collaborated with other nations on carrier designs and for the tier 10 wargaming can just do the same thing as ever and make a ship that never existed even on paper

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Uhhh... if you're any good, you can do MUCH MORE damage with Ark Royal than any other T6 CV.

Same about Kaga. Ah well... 

 

But actually, yes I'd prefer to have a German CV with Stukas. Even if they are slow. 

It would be quite funny to have them slow. Then give 'em high accuracy and see what happens. 

You can alwasy BALANZ by giving them more or less planes, or damage. Or whatever. 

 

The thing is, WG cannot just re-spec or chance anything Premium. It leads to crapstorms.

Sure they could make a "new Version" and call it Peter Strasser. That was the planned name for the sister ship.

However... the Germans never had anything really for CVs. Therefore "there can be only one". 

And since they stuffed it up... 

Well, the planes are all slowed here. A Stuka has a max speed of ~215 knots. So They would fit pretty good into this game :D

[Bear__Necessities]

27 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

These numbers show absolutely nothing. Or better: they show CVs inferior to BBs in terms of damage 

It's about WHERE damage is put. How many times on this thread does that NEED to be pointed out. CV's put their damage into far more valuable targets.

 

That's why A) CV wins games and B) makes them the strongest class of all. 

[Stume]

CVs have been ruining this game since it came out.

I came back to see if things had improved but tbh and I don't see how you've done it but your fucked the game completely up.

 

This has ceased to be a game about warships and is now a completely dominated by the abilities of the CV's.

I seriously believe that this game has been completely and utterly destroyed by the CV fanboyz. If you look at the number of people who play CV son a regular basis, they are the ONLY ones happy with the current state of the game.

Wargaming needs to stop listening to the minority and see the numbers

 

I am going to do the only thing that you can do when a game has been so utterly destroyed, and take my money and my time elsewhere.

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 minutes ago, siraiaw said:

for the tier 4 and 6 carriers the germans actually collaborated with other nations on carrier designs and for the tier 10 wargaming can just do the same thing as ever and make a ship that never existed even on paper

Agreed, though they COULD mess around a bit, making:

- T4     Ausonia (converted passenger liner);

- T6     Jade/Elbe (converted passenger liners, one could be Premium);

- T8     Peter Strasser (sister-ship of Zeppy);

- T10  The stolen version of De Grasse... just to P.O. the French. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_of_Germany

...nevertheless I don't think we'll ever see them.

[Sunleader]

4 hours ago, MrConway said:

 

You are unfortunately right, she turned out to be too strong which is why we had to pull her from sale.

 

Unexpected ^^

But Respect for the Honesty.

 

If I might Repeat the Question as well.

Any Ideas on WGs side on Fixing the "Issue" and putting Enterprise back on Sale again ?

 

1 hour ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I have concluded that Mr Conway said it, even if some said he'd never. 

KUDOS DUE. 

 

True. I didnt expect that one xD

 

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You should still take out some of the markings, because they are irrelevant or wrong.

Win and lose rate is techincally balanced at 50%, the differences there are some kind of error. If one CV wins a match, another CV lost a match. It's impossible to get something else than 50%

Aircraft destroyed are also irrelevant, because a CV will always have aircrafts in his match. Other ships like BBs or cruisers have matches without aircrafts, so their number gets lowered just by the missing CV in that match. You can't compare those numbers, it's like we would do a contest of, who eats more Burgers in one month, i get every day a burger served and you only every second. ;)

 

Also it's obvious, that every stat, that is related to the speed, will go up for CVs. You can look at the RTS

Same stats high, except the base def, but the Aircraft destroyed is multiple times higher. But to be fair - CVs were more rare, so obvioulsy that number must be higher, but also we know, that the CV earlier was way better in shooting down planes. So I would clearly say, that this stat is good in RTS and low in Rework.

It's the nature of a CV to have those stat higher, that doesn't make it OP imo. Some stats like "base capture" can be way more important than "survived".

 

I said it a few times, that I woudl change the spotting mechanic for CVs, thus one stat would be at least lowered, or actually with my suggestion all stats would be lowered (adding unarmed spotter planes for CVs)

 

ps.: the newest statistic is also different. BBs with most damage e.g.

 

 

1.

I checked and cant find any Wrong Markings. If you found any Feel Free to Point it out.

2.

Win and Loss is Neglectable. But not Irrelevant :)

The Higher Win Rate of CVs as a Class Stems from the Latenight Matches when the MM Starts Crumbling due to Lack of Players and at some Point thus Shoves a CV which he cannot Match into a Game where only 1 Team then has a CV.

Needless to mention that these Games are pretty much Guaranteed Win for the CV. Hence giving him the Minimal Winrate Advantage.

Due to these Matches even at late Night being an Rarity this will of course not Diverge from the 50% too Far.

By the way before you Ask. The Reason that the High Tier in General has Positive and the Low Tier (except CV) negative. Is for the same Reason. When the MM Crumbles and Stops being able to Match the Same Tier Ships the Low Tiers will often Suffer from it.

3.

Thats Irrelevant. After all we also Count the other Statistics from BBs and especially from DDs which they Achieve in Matches with no CVs Present.

So Cutting out a Statistic just because it for a change does Favors the CV would be Hypocritical.

4.

CVs have been Overpowered in RTS already. So no Surprises there.

5.

As I said quite a few Times. If CVs were only Excelling in one Stat. Then I would Agree. That this wont make them OP. Thats why DDs for example WHICH ONLY Excell in Spotting and Base Capture compared to other Classes. Are not OP.

Thats just what they Specialize in.

But CVs do not Excel in one Stat. They Excel in almost ALL Stats.

And that is in Fact an Extremely Clear Indicator that they are Overpowered.

6.

I.ll Ignore the Rest because Suggestions should be Discussed Seperately with the Detailed Suggestion and a Proper Topic to Discuss them. Not in a mashup Topic like this.

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

15 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, the planes are all slowed here. A Stuka has a max speed of ~215 knots. So They would fit pretty good into this game :D

IMO it's a waste how they did it... I'd have done:

T4 - Fokker triplanes and all that famous stuff from WW2;

T6 - early WW2 warbirds like ME109, Stuka, maybe some biplanes;

T8 - late WW2 warbirds,still ME109, Stuka but now also FW190;

T10 - Me262... but flimsy flimsy. Maybe have the Comet, but limit the range.  

[siraiaw]

1 minute ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

IMO it's a waste how they did it... I'd have done:

T4 - Fokker triplanes and all that famous stuff from WW2;

T6 - early WW2 warbirds like ME109, Stuka, maybe some biplanes;

T8 - late WW2 warbirds,still ME109, Stuka but now also FW190;

T10 - Me262... but flimsy flimsy. Maybe have the Comet, but limit the range.  

how much health per plane/squadron, and how big of a squadron?

[BLUB__BLUB]

8 minutes ago, siraiaw said:

how much health per plane/squadron, and how big of a squadron?

Good question, next question 

(similar to other CVs). I suppose since German CVS were relatively small, they'd have small squads. 

That means, they'd do damage to having good speed (ME109/FW190), or being very accurate (Stuka) and sturdy.

 

The biggest problem is CVs are quite OP, due to their "automatic spotting" and such. 

Since WG considers the ReeeeWork sort of finished, I'd not count on more CVs coming. 

If any are coming, it will be those that they have the models ready for. So: IJN, US and RN. 

 

If it were up to me I'd give CV players a choice when the subs are coming: change rocketfighters for asdic-depth-charge-bombers.