CV Rework Discussion

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Lets actually analyze that, shall we?

Thunderer, Ohio, Venezia and Stalingrad are ships in limited circulation. The way to obtain those currently is skewed towards more skilled players. Their statistical overperformance is therefore not only normal but should be expected.

 

Conqueror deals more damage but is laughably more ineffective at it as is evidenced by the low KPM.

 

That leaves Kremlin and Smolensk as the closest contenders, both of which are widely acknowledged as overperforming. And even they can't keep up in terms of damage efficiency.

 

If anything you have just proven that the Hakuryu at least is op.

 

WR doesn't mean anything because CVs have too few lines and are mirrored.

 

Limited ships (some of them) have 3x games than CV.....right now they are not "few and sometimes"....infact they have more impact over game becasue much more peoples have nad play Stalin and rest than CV. 

 

Dds are mirrored too and we can see something from their WR rating

 

Also Venezia and Yammato (one over one under) shows in fact here there are no probem in performance of TOP CV....while other 2 (USA; RN) lack far behind.

 

on TX there are no CV "problem"

 

t8 will show someting else...pulint it now

 

[terios]

Yamm, yamm, yammato!

[El2aZeR]

36 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Limited ships (some of them) have 3x games than CV.....right now they are not "few and sometimes"....infact they have more impact over game becasue much more peoples have nad play Stalin and rest than CV. 

 

How often they're played has literally nothing to do with how they're obtained and how that inevitably favors more skilled players.

 

36 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Dds are mirrored too and we can see something from their WR rating

 

DDs also have more than 3 T10s to choose from, meaning that the distribution in a team can often exclude a specific one. This leads to a far more noticeable difference in performance.

 

Meanwhile Haku either goes up against itself, a Midway or an Audacious. The diversity isn't high enough for Haku, or any T10 CV, to ever get a high global WR.

 

This can far more easily be seen in T8 CVs where diversity is the highest.

 

36 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Also Venezia and Yammato (one over one under) shows in fact here there are no probem in performance of TOP CV....while other 2 (USA; RN) lack far behind.

 

Venezia has extremely few players and is as such skewed towards a higher statistical performance due to the fact that skilled players grind faster or have more free exp to spend.

To put this into perspective there are currently 26 players on record on wows-numbers for the Venezia, none of which have an avg dmg stat below 50k. This naturally puts her avg dmg value closer to her actual potential.

This is not the case with any CV. In fact because the majority of CVs is incompetent that actually puts their avg dmg value furter away from their actual potential. That Haku can even compete despite that speaks volumes.

 

Yamato is almost as pathetic as Conq in terms of effectiveness and is as such severely lacking in comparison to Haku.

 

As for the performance of Midway and Audacious, it's a fairly typical symptom of CVs. The skilled CV players have mostly migrated from Midway/Audacious to Haku which inevitably puts Haku ahead.

Thus it should be expected that Midway and Audacious are statistically underperforming, however it also has very little to do with balance.

 

36 minutes ago, veslingr said:

on TX there are no CV "problem"

 

Only if you blindly point towards stats and don't care to analyze anything.

[veslingr]

29 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

 

 

Only if you blindly point towards stats and don't care to analyze anything.

This is reality...not potential.

 

TOP CV is in line with Yammato....and i think it is ok.

 

[El2aZeR]

7 minutes ago, veslingr said:

This is reality...not potential.

 

TOP CV is in line with Yammato....and i think it is ok.

 

Yes, this is reality. And you're refusing to accept it.

 

Again, Haku vastly outperforms Yamato as her damage is far more effective. Likewise with Kremlin and Smolensk, two ships which are widely accepted to be overperforming.

And that is despite the average CV player being incompetent.

[veslingr]

14 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Yes, this is reality. And you're refusing to accept it.

 

Again, Haku vastly outperforms Yamato as her damage is far more effective. Likewise with Kremlin and Smolensk, two ships which are widely accepted to be overperforming.

And that is despite the average CV player being incompetent.

Which is not reflection into WR.

 

I know your answer - mirror.....but now all classes have mirror.

 

There are no statistical date that would show that DMG of haku is more effective.....it is oulny guess that haku players more farm DDs than BBs...but not single stat confirms this theory....especially that we know how player base is not great and how it is easier to hit BBs than dd

[MrConway]

On 11/23/2019 at 1:37 AM, Sunleader said:

 

They made a Statement which in a very Polite and Indirect Way basicly could be Summed up as.

"Enterprise is way too Overpowered even for CV Standards and as our Policy Prohibits us from Nerfing Premium Ships it has been taken out of the Shop so others cannot Buy it anymore until maybe at Day X some Rework or General Update somehow Fixes it by Accident."

  

Of course any WG Employee will likely immediately Deny this and repeat the Official Statement which you can Read here.

 

 

 

But lets Face it and not Talk around the Hot Cake. She was OP as Hell and thus was Removed because WG does not Nerf Ships that were Sold for Real Money. End of Story.

WG Knows it. We Know it. Everyone Knows it. And @MrConway also knows it. Even if he would never say it like this...

 

Tough maybe he can answer your Question on wether WG has yet "Detected" the Reason for that "Fluctuation" in her Combat Efficiency and has any Idea on how they might Fix it without Nerfing her...

 

You are unfortunately right, she turned out to be too strong which is why we had to pull her from sale.

[Panocek]

8 hours ago, Inappropriate_noob said:

Oh, ears and eyes perk up at this sold her because of her stupid torp spread

Torp spread is unchanged, each fish will do bit more damage. And flood may be more often than once per week

[CptBarney]

40 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Torp spread is unchanged, each fish will do bit more damage. And flood may be more often than once per week

She will do something like 18k+ damage per torp spread maybe more depending on torpedo belt. Plus any flooding you get and the ship happened to use DamCon before hand

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, CptBarney sagte:

She will do something like 18k+ damage per torp spread maybe more depending on torpedo belt. Plus any flooding you get and the ship happened to use DamCon before hand

You already do 18k +. 

The flood chance was superior to most other CVs too already so the buff to Midway torps actually is just going totally overboard. 

[CptBarney]

Just now, Yoshanai said:

You already do 18k +. 

The flood chance was superior to most other CVs too already so the buff to Midway torps actually is just going totally overboard. 

Oh i never bothered to check, always had lexingtons torps in mind.

Im gonna guess and say they will do..............................................30k? Luckily weegee didn't buff her bombers otherwise we would have big problems.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 11 Minuten, CptBarney sagte:

Oh i never bothered to check, always had lexingtons torps in mind.

Im gonna guess and say they will do..............................................30k? Luckily weegee didn't buff her bombers otherwise we would have big problems.

No they will do around 21k after the buff like they were before the Torps got nerfed. 

[siraiaw]

1 minute ago, Yoshanai said:

No they will do around 21k after the buff like they were before the Torps got nerfed. 

now they just need to fix zeppy's bombers

[Pikkozoikum]

Just now, siraiaw said:

now they just need to fix zeppy's bombers

I guess you don't mean to repalce the bombers with Stukas? ;D

[CptBarney]

2 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

No they will do around 21k after the buff like they were before the Torps got nerfed. 

Thats not too bad actually. Why did they buff midway anyways? i thought she was fine?

Hope we get a mission to get yorkie as well at some point.

[siraiaw]

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I guess you don't mean to repalce the bombers with Stukas? ;D

they could do that and do it like the ark royal and make a lot of them but with low health

[siraiaw]

2 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Thats not too bad actually. Why did they buff midway anyways? i thought she was fine?

Hope we get a mission to get yorkie as well at some point.

the midway has by far the lowest winrate of any cv in the game by the way the second place goes to zeppy

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 1 Minute, siraiaw sagte:

now they just need to fix zeppy's bombers

They actually work but need to be aimed correctly. But no matter how well you aim them having only 2 bombs drop for the same alpha as a shokaku is just terrible. Each of those bombs should at least do 10k or drop 4 bombs instead of 2 with 5k alpha each. 

2 bombs for 7k each is a joke. 

Vor 2 Minuten, CptBarney sagte:

Thats not too bad actually. Why did they buff midway anyways? i thought she was fine?

Hope we get a mission to get yorkie as well at some point.

They buffed her because people get worse with her. 

 

My PR in Midway is rising and I'm climbing the ranks without playing her because some of the people that were higher than me start performing worse and newer players perform so badly that PR has no other option but to rise. 

[CptBarney]

Just now, Yoshanai said:

They actually work but need to be aimed correctly. But no matter how well you aim them having only 2 bombs drop for the same alpha as a shokaku is just terrible. Each of those bombs should at least do 10k or drop 4 bombs instead of 2 with 5k alpha each. 

2 bombs for 7k each is a joke. 

For her bombs i would make the dispersion circle smaller by 10% and also buff citadel damage to maybe 12k.

Even if that would make them too gud.

 

Just now, Yoshanai said:

They buffed her because people get worse with her. 

 

My PR in Midway is rising and I'm climbing the ranks without playing her because some of the people that were higher than me start performing worse and newer players perform so badly that PR has no other option but to rise. 

I've gotten better at her as well. Mind you she does have 650k battles compared to haku at 430k and audacious at 220k.

[Pikkozoikum]

22 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

For her bombs i would make the dispersion circle smaller by 10% and also buff citadel damage to maybe 12k.

Even if that would make them too gud.

I guess the Shokaku is in a good spot? At least when I played her. The bombs do 7600 dmg, Haku bombs du 8500 dmg. Buffing the bombs to 12k dmg would be a weird logic. Also I believe the bomb dmg from T8 to T10 are kinda similar increasing like the HP of ships.

T8 BBs are around 63k-69k

T10 BBs are around 92k-100k

Relative increase ~68%

 

T8 bombs totaly dmg 15.200

T10 bombs total dmg 25.500

Relative increase ~50%

 

Guess buffing the T8 bombs to 12k -> 24.000 would be a bit of an overkill. The max buff I would give them would be to the same damage of 8500. But still no idea, if she really needs a buff, though I like the bombers.

 

That would mean, the T8 planes would have the same bombs like the T10 planes, the joke here is, the T8 bombs are actually able to carry the T10 bombs, while the T10 planes were not able to carry them. The J5N carried max a 250kg bomb, but in this game it's a 800 kg bomb and the B7N was designed to be able to carry 800 kg bombs.

[Trawn91]

1 hour ago, MrConway said:

 

You are unfortunately right, she turned out to be too strong which is why we had to pull her from sale.

Wait a second. So does that means she wont be coming back? Well the problem you created here (with not removing it from the hands of which already bought her while also denying others the possibility to buy it) is that you will never be able (at least shouldnt be) to bring competitive mode with CV - at least not on tier 8. Bcs even noob with big E will crap on anybody else. Shokaku might come close, but those Enterprise´s T11 fighter planes will give her upper hand. (and yes, I know they are not always that usefull, but gives her upper hand). 

[siraiaw]

2 minutes ago, Trawn91 said:

Wait a second. So does that means she wont be coming back? Well the problem you created here (with not removing it from the hands of which already bought her while also denying others the possibility to buy it) is that you will never be able (at least shouldnt be) to bring competitive mode with CV - at least not on tier 8. Bcs even noob with big E will crap on anybody else. Shokaku might come close, but those Enterprise´s T11 fighter planes will give her upper hand. (and yes, I know they are not always that usefull, but gives her upper hand). 

i have seen that noobs in enterprise still won't be able to beat a good battleship, their aim can be redicoulously bad. so no a noob will not be able to beat a good player. however an ok enterprise will be able to beat a good zeppy player so you are right in that

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, Trawn91 said:

Wait a second. So does that means she wont be coming back? Well the problem you created here (with not removing it from the hands of which already bought her while also denying others the possibility to buy it) is that you will never be able (at least shouldnt be) to bring competitive mode with CV - at least not on tier 8. Bcs even noob with big E will crap on anybody else. Shokaku might come close, but those Enterprise´s T11 fighter planes will give her upper hand. (and yes, I know they are not always that usefull, but gives her upper hand). 

Well, prems that are taken away from the shop are still allowed in all the modes, there are no extra rules. Also soon is a Clan Brawl with CV, I believe one was T8

 

I don't like that either, that they don't balance the Prems.Guess it's a business decision. When they nerf ships, that they sold, then people would rant about it and maybe leave the game

[CptBarney]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I guess the Shokaku is in a good spot? At least when I played her. The bombs do 7600 dmg, Haku bombs du 8500 dmg. Buffing the bombs to 12k dmg would be a weird logic. Also I believe the bomb dmg from T8 to T10 are kinda similar increasing like the HP of ships.

T8 BBs are around 63k-69k

T10 BBs are around 92k-100k

Relative increase ~68%

 

T8 bombs totaly dmg 15.200

T10 bombs total dmg 25.500

Relative increase ~50%

 

Guess buffing the T8 bombs to 12k -> 24.000 would be a bit of an overkill. The max buff I would give them would be to the same damage of 8500. But still no idea, if she really needs a buff, though I like the bombers.

 

That would mean, the T8 planes would have the same bombs like the T10 planes, the joke here is, the T8 bombs are actually able to carry the T10 bombs, while the T10 planes were not able to carry them. The J5N carried max a 250kg bomb, but in this game it's a 800 kg bomb and the B7N was designed to be able to carry 800 kg bombs.

Idk, i was thinking on the premise that she only has 2 bombs, im not sure what bombs the fockerwulf 152 would of actually carried in general, she was a dedicated ground attack plane however. Maybe 10k citadel damage, since you only get two bombs and they are sometimes prone to bounce or even miss.

[Panocek]

6 minutes ago, Trawn91 said:

Wait a second. So does that means she wont be coming back? Well the problem you created here (with not removing it from the hands of which already bought her while also denying others the possibility to buy it) is that you will never be able (at least shouldnt be) to bring competitive mode with CV - at least not on tier 8. Bcs even noob with big E will crap on anybody else. Shokaku might come close, but those Enterprise´s T11 fighter planes will give her upper hand. (and yes, I know they are not always that usefull, but gives her upper hand). 

Wargaming and logic don't mix well