CV Rework Discussion

[AndyHill]

2 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Problem is that CV across tiers do not top any relevant stat column.

Unless you take into account the fact that they do double the spotting anyone else does and are all but immortal as well as by far the best cap defenders. Because they also do lots of damage and kills with the best of them, their k/d ratio is through the roof. The only two things carriers are not either good at or in a class of their own are capping and tanking.

 

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

And stats of CV clearly shows that CVs do not disturbed balance of game overal.

This is true in that the real damage CVs do to the game don't show in stats.

 

Also you forgot to mention why WR is relevant to this discussion.

[veslingr]

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

that's a good hint, but base Exp can't be used, because every ship type has his own modifier on their tasks. To get out the relative dmg there is not really possible. E.g. a BB gets more exp for the same amount of potential dmg, than a dd. A dd gets more exp for spotting, than a bb.

So they use base exp plus premium account/flags/camo (not sure what they check and what dont)  .

 

I could live with internal modifiers because it is the same for EVERY ship and player playing that ship. 

 

Not all players run exp camo/flag/premiumtime. 

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

So they use base exp plus premium account/flags/camo (not sure what they check and what dont)  .

 

I could live with internal modifiers because it is the same for EVERY ship and player playing that ship. 

 

Not all players run exp camo/flag/premiumtime. 

 

 

Not sure, what you are talking about. The exp from prem and stuff are not important, we go with Base Exp all the time, but the Base Exp have modifiers depending on ship type (DD, BB, CV, Cruiser)

A DD gains more base exp for spotting, then a BB, because the DD is a spotter class.

No idea why you bring in the camo and prem stuff xD

[veslingr]

5 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Not sure, what you are talking about. The exp from prem and stuff are not important, we go with Base Exp all the time, but the Base Exp have modifiers depending on ship type (DD, BB, CV, Cruiser)

A DD gains more base exp for spotting, then a BB, because the DD is a spotter class.

No idea why you bring in the camo and prem stuff xD

Stats page dont use baseexp but base xp+modifiers. Wows numbers do not use base exp in their EXP report. 

[LordTareq]

Having two high tier CV's in a match is pretty bad. That's the only thing I'd wish they change. Two tier 6 CV's in a tier 8 match I can live with. But two Kaga's cross dropping torpedo strikes on bb's etc in tier 8 the entire game revolves around those CV's.

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Stats page dont use baseexp but badse xp+modifiers. Wows numbers do not use base exp in their EXP report. 

Guess you are wrong here. My ships have mostly max record exp around 3k. But I used camo, signals etc and got 10k-30k exp. Those never shown up as max.

[Pikkozoikum]

12 minutes ago, LordTareq said:

Having two high tier CV's in a match is pretty bad. That's the only thing I'd wish they change. Two tier 6 CV's in a tier 8 match I can live with. But two Kaga's cross dropping torpedo strikes on bb's etc in tier 8 the entire game revolves around those CV's.

Two Kagas in one team? I play a lot Kaga, but never had another Kaga in my team. At least i can't remember. Guess the matchmaker would mostly put the other Kaga always in the other team.

Beside that, two crosscfiring BBs hurt more. One torp of a Kaga does less damage than one pen of a BB against torpedo protected BBs.

[LordTareq]

18 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Two Kagas in one team? I play a lot Kaga, but never had another Kaga in my team. At least i can't remember. Guess the matchmaker would mostly put the other Kaga always in the other team.

Beside that, two crosscfiring BBs hurt more. One torp of a Kaga does less damage than one pen of a BB against torpedo protected BBs.

It was hypothetical, I did end up in a match today with a Kaga and GZ on the opposing team. We won despite our CV’s performing worse than theirs (which kinda goes against my statement that the match revolves around the CV’s) but it for sure felt as if the game was decided by the CV’s.

I play CV’s quite extensively, but even so I feel two times two CV’s of the highest tier in a match is just too dominating.

[Pikkozoikum]

30 minutes ago, LordTareq said:

It was hypothetical, I did end up in a match today with a Kaga and GZ on the opposing team. We won despite our CV’s performing worse than theirs (which kinda goes against my statement that the match revolves around the CV’s) but it for sure felt as if the game was decided by the CV’s.

I play CV’s quite extensively, but even so I feel two times two CV’s of the highest tier in a match is just too doninating.

Well, I'm somtimes #1 by far, and enemy CV at the bottom, but still lose. The weakness of CVs are large groups and quick matches. There is not enough time to deal the damage or pick isolated targets. 

 

[Sunleader]

7 hours ago, veslingr said:

Problem is that there are no much good CV players so this is just in theory discussion now. That's my point all the way. 

 

 

 

If you dont Read my Post then Dont Answer.

Your Comment is not only Factually Wrong but also Completely Unrelated to my Post.

[El2aZeR]

7 hours ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Yo, CV unicums of this game, I need your advise.

 

Given I need a T10 CV for the Puerto Rico grind, what would be the better investment? Audacious or Midway? Don't want to go for Hakuryu, but which of the remaining two is the better option to aim for?

 

Get Midway. She's about to get buffed to ridiculousness anyway.

[Panocek]

7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Get Midway. She's about to get buffed to ridiculousness anyway.

More like she gets slightly less dysfunctional torpedoes

[El2aZeR]

20 minutes ago, Panocek said:

More like she gets slightly less dysfunctional torpedoes

 

Torps are already pretty decent contrary to popular belief. I see no reason why they should get buffed.

 

If they want to buff Midway, just slap heal on the DBs or sth. Those could actually need it what with them taking the most damage from AA now.

 

Then again if WG had any sense then they wouldn't be buffing Midway in the first place.

I mean, if Midway is weak, then what is Audacious?

[Allied_Winter]

26 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Get Midway. She's about to get buffed to ridiculousness anyway.

Great ... although my Lexington skills are still subpar... so I got a lot to learn :)

[veslingr]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

If you dont Read my Post then Dont Answer.

Your Comment is not only Factually Wrong but also Completely Unrelated to my Post.

nothing i poste was wrong....also i can not/will not respod to your post because you originaly did not even try to respond to my post....nothing what you are pointing thrue all your posts has anything to do with my original theses. 

 

let me post it again.

 

CV as ship is strong, even OP (not all but some are), BUT, in current live game played CVs impact is not in correlation with their potential strength due to bad player base.

 

That why you can play dd and still have good games and win games even if CV is in game...and not becasue my CV won game for me, but because enemie CV plays that bad that i have no problem dooing my job.

 

all i can see here (90% of time) is excuses of bad player how they can not play in xy class due to CV....and in fact you can....but you just need to know how.

[mcboernester]

6 hours ago, veslingr said:

So they use base exp plus premium account/flags/camo (not sure what they check and what dont)  .

 

I could live with internal modifiers because it is the same for EVERY ship and player playing that ship. 

 

Not all players run exp camo/flag/premiumtime. 

 

 

wows numbers uses the data provided by the API , Your account on the Wargaming side itself is also always(!)  modified by premium time, but not by camo or flags. 

 

Its pretty bad for cv old / new comparison though since the xp calculation focus for cvs changed from plane shotdowns towards dmg like the other surface ships. Also they introduced 65 insterad of 50% xp around xmas 2018 i think?

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, veslingr said:

nothing i poste was wrong....also i can not/will not respod to your post because you originaly did not even try to respond to my post....nothing what you are pointing thrue all your posts has anything to do with my original theses. 

 

let me post it again.

 

CV as ship is strong, even OP (not all but some are), BUT, in current live game played CVs impact is not in correlation with their potential strength due to bad player base.

 

That why you can play dd and still have good games and win games even if CV is in game...and not becasue my CV won game for me, but because enemie CV plays that bad that i have no problem dooing my job.

 

all i can see here (90% of time) is excuses of bad player how they can not play in xy class due to CV....and in fact you can....but you just need to know how.

 

Actually almost everything you Posted so far has been Wrong. And I have actually Proven that a few Times by now with actual Sources like for example the Average Statistics which you claim dont show anything OP about CVs...

 

And in that Post before you Answered with a Comment about Good CV Players. But my Entire Post was about Average CV Players.

And you Claimed that this is a Theory Discussion. But what I posted was a Factual Sheet of Statistics. Not a Theory. Its not something supposedly happening at some point or which I suggest might happen. Its something that has already happened and is Recorded by the Statistics as having happened. So its not a Theory.

 

You Ignoring my Arguments and just Repeating your little Bullcrab Mantra at me is entirely useless. And just Repeating it over and over does not make it any more right either.

 

And No Mate. What you See 90% in this Topic is Actually Good CV Players Telling you that they can Shut Down any other Class Completely for a Match.

Sure you can Play that Class lol.

 

You can Play that Class and Yolo right into the Enemy and still call that "You can Play that Class"

You can also just turn 180 Degree at Start of the Match and thus be far enough Away that the CV will kill someone else. "You can still Play that Class right"

But thats not what most People Define as Playing.

 

Imagine AA would be so Strong that any Ship that Presses O just Deletes your Squadron before you can Drop.

That would not actually Stop you from Playing CV. You can Still go into Battle. And if the Player you Attack is a Noob who doesnt Press O you can even get Damage.

But lets Face it.

You would come here and Cry that CVs are Unplayable.

 

 

Playable is Unfortunately a really relative Term.

You could give CVs Intercontinental Missiles to Instantly Kill the whole Enemy Team at once.

And you could still claim oh yeah other Classes are Playable. You can still Join the Game and Play after all.

And there aint a CV in each Game right. So still absolutely Playable.

 

 

But thats Bullcrab.

You know it.

I know it.

Everyone in this Topic knows it.

 

So how about you just Admit that CVs are Overpowered and Break the Balance of the Game because CVs are Basicly better at almost Everything while not being Bad at anything and stop with that Cheap Excuses and Derailing Tactics.

Because Sorry. But if your only Argument is that CVs are not Breaking Balance because there is not enough of them to Break the Game for Everyone. Then you could just as well claim that Murder isnt a Crime worth Punishing because it just doesnt happen often enough to Threaten Society.

 

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

 

Actually almost everything you Posted so far has been Wrong. And I have actually Proven that a few Times by now with actual Sources like for example the Average Statistics which you claim dont show anything OP about CVs...

 

And in that Post before you Answered with a Comment about Good CV Players. But my Entire Post was about Average CV Players.

And you Claimed that this is a Theory Discussion. But what I posted was a Factual Sheet of Statistics. Not a Theory. Its not something supposedly happening at some point or which I suggest might happen. Its something that has already happened and is Recorded by the Statistics as having happened. So its not a Theory.

 

You Ignoring my Arguments and just Repeating your little Bullcrab Mantra at me is entirely useless. And just Repeating it over and over does not make it any more right either.

 

And No Mate. What you See 90% in this Topic is Actually Good CV Players Telling you that they can Shut Down any other Class Completely for a Match.

Sure you can Play that Class lol.

 

You can Play that Class and Yolo right into the Enemy and still call that "You can Play that Class"

You can also just turn 180 Degree at Start of the Match and thus be far enough Away that the CV will kill someone else. "You can still Play that Class right"

But thats not what most People Define as Playing.

 

Imagine AA would be so Strong that any Ship that Presses O just Deletes your Squadron before you can Drop.

That would not actually Stop you from Playing CV. You can Still go into Battle. And if the Player you Attack is a Noob who doesnt Press O you can even get Damage.

But lets Face it.

You would come here and Cry that CVs are Unplayable.

 

 

Playable is Unfortunately a really relative Term.

You could give CVs Intercontinental Missiles to Instantly Kill the whole Enemy Team at once.

And you could still claim oh yeah other Classes are Playable. You can still Join the Game and Play after all.

And there aint a CV in each Game right. So still absolutely Playable.

 

 

But thats Bullcrab.

You know it.

I know it.

Everyone in this Topic knows it.

 

So how about you just Admit that CVs are Overpowered and Break the Balance of the Game because CVs are Basicly better at almost Everything while not being Bad at anything and stop with that Cheap Excuses and Derailing Tactics.

Because Sorry. But if your only Argument is that CVs are not Breaking Balance because there is not enough of them to Break the Game for Everyone. Then you could just as well claim that Murder isnt a Crime worth Punishing because it just doesnt happen often enough to Threaten Society.

 

Ltp isuse. 

[Hopeless_Guppy]

7 hours ago, Panocek said:

More like she gets slightly less dysfunctional torpedoes

Oh, ears and eyes perk up at this sold her because of her stupid torp spread

[Hopeless_Guppy]

7 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Torps are already pretty decent contrary to popular belief. I see no reason why they should get buffed.

 

If they want to buff Midway, just slap heal on the DBs or sth. Those could actually need it what with them taking the most damage from AA now.

 

Then again if WG had any sense then they wouldn't be buffing Midway in the first place.

I mean, if Midway is weak, then what is Audacious?

Audacious isn't brilliant nor too bad , I just see her, or equate her to a T8 CV, she was my first tier 10CV, I got them all, now she is my only one, in my mind she is what the Implacable should have been, Hermes and Implacable are garbage, where as the Furious, and Audacious are not so bad, Ark Royal, we shall say nothing about that.

[Nov_A]

13 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Two Kagas in one team? I play a lot Kaga, but never had another Kaga in my team. At least i can't remember. Guess the matchmaker would mostly put the other Kaga always in the other team.

Beside that, two crosscfiring BBs hurt more. One torp of a Kaga does less damage than one pen of a BB against torpedo protected BBs.

Had a game with 3 Shokakus and me in Kaga a few days ago.

 

As Kaga is already the topic, at late night hours I started to repeatedly encounter a guy with 1k games in Kaga and 44% WR. All he did was focusing the enemy CV and then go afk. This happened multiple times, the first time I met him another player in the enemy team wrote he did this for the past 3 games already. Same happened last weekend when I encountered TopTier in GZ, he explained it in chat after the match as "testing something new".

 

How viable is the constant attack on the enemy CV? For me it just seems like a pure gamble on your team, because it still takes a while of game time.

[El2aZeR]

20 minutes ago, Nov_A said:

How viable is the constant attack on the enemy CV?

 

Because the enemy CV is usually the furthest target from you it is gonna take you far too long to kill. By the time you finally do the match can already be decided. Due to the ease with which fighters can be deployed to defend yourself against air attack in a CV severe losses are also often inevitable.

If you happen to catch a CV close to you however they tend to go down fairly easily assuming you know what you're doing.

 

A CV is a target of opportunity at best. If you happen to have the chance to take one out quickly and efficiently, by all means do it. Otherwise direct your efforts elsewhere unless nothing but the enemy CV remains.

[Sunleader]

49 minutes ago, Nov_A said:

Had a game with 3 Shokakus and me in Kaga a few days ago.

 

As Kaga is already the topic, at late night hours I started to repeatedly encounter a guy with 1k games in Kaga and 44% WR. All he did was focusing the enemy CV and then go afk. This happened multiple times, the first time I met him another player in the enemy team wrote he did this for the past 3 games already. Same happened last weekend when I encountered TopTier in GZ, he explained it in chat after the match as "testing something new".

 

How viable is the constant attack on the enemy CV? For me it just seems like a pure gamble on your team, because it still takes a while of game time.

 

In General a CV is an Easy Target to Kill. But as he is usually the Furthest Away. And either Requires you to Incur Losses or to take a long Detour. Killing him often takes pretty Long.

And your Attacks will neither Stop or even Slow Down the Attacks of the Enemy CV on your Team. And he is much Closer to your Frontline Forces than you are to him.

So in the Time you need to do the Damage Required to Kill him. He can do 2-3 Times that Amount of Damage to your Teams Frontline Forces.

 

By the Time you Finally manage to Kill the Enemy CV the Advantage of the Enemy Team has in most cases Grown to such an Degree that you will just not be able to Cancel it out anymore.

Thanks to that. Winning a Game in this Manner is actually pretty Rare and usually only happens if either the Enemy CV was Incompetent to begin with and did not really create an Advantage in that Time.

Or if the Enemy Team was pretty Incompetent in General and was Roflstomped Faster than the Enemy CV could Create an Advantage for them.

 

So if you want to Win this Tactic is not really Viable.

 

 

If the Enemy CV of course Offers you a Chance on him by Exposing himself coming Close enough to be Attacked not just by You. But Possibly by Battleships of your Team. The Story becomes Different.

In that Case Scouting and Attacking the CV can be a Good Opportunity as you might be able to Take him Out with a Single Squadron thanks to him Coming under Fire from your Team as well. Or he might be Killed by your Team as you Spot him.

 

Outside of that however the General Rule is to Refrain from Sniping the Enemy CV. Its just not Worth the Effort. And the Disadvantage you Face if the Enemy CV is Competent is Pretty Severe.

What you can do. Is to do Single Attacks the CV when you have the Opportunity to do so.

I for example often Dump some Torps on the Enemy CV on my First Scouting Run. Usually Dumping the First Set of Torps on some Cruiser as it not only Hinders him from getting into Favorable Position but also often causes him to go Broadside and possibly take Additional Fire from my Teams BBs. And then Dump the Second Set on the CV behind the Enemy Lines.

 

A Competent CV will just Ignore this Attack and not take any Notable Action from this. But Less Competent CVs will often assume that they are being Sniped and will either Attempt to Increase the Distance which gives me an Advantage as they need longer to Bomb my Team. Or they actually Creep Closer to the Battle trying to take Cover in the AA Auras of their Teams Battleships. Which might Create an Opportunity as Described above.

 

However. This is a One Time Attack done because Turning inside an AA Blob wont really get me anything anyways. Its a Throw Away Attack instead of Pressing F Immediately.

Nothing more than That. Dont try to Force an Attack on the CV which is not in line of your Attack anyways. You will just waste your Time with it. And dont get absorbed into thinking that if you just Attack him all the time he might go forward and present an Opportunity. The moment you dont Attack him because he is in the way of your Attack anyways and actually start Flying to him to get an Attack on him. You are already Wasting time which he can use to Attack your Team.

 

[veslingr]

TX

 

WR and DMG of CV last 2 months

 

Not even close to top DMG dealers.

 

BBs domination still ongoing

 

 

[El2aZeR]

30 minutes ago, veslingr said:

BBs domination still ongoing

 

Lets actually analyze that, shall we?

Thunderer, Ohio, Venezia and Stalingrad are ships in limited circulation. The way to obtain those currently is skewed towards more skilled players. Their statistical overperformance is therefore not only normal but should be expected as it is closer to representing the actual potential of these ships than one that is commonly available.

 

Conqueror deals more damage but is laughably more ineffective at it as is evidenced by the low KPM.

 

That leaves Kremlin and Smolensk as the closest contenders, both of which are widely acknowledged as overperforming. And even they can't keep up in terms of damage efficiency.

 

If anything you have just proven that the Hakuryu at least is op.

 

WR doesn't mean anything because CVs have too few lines and are mirrored.