CV Rework Discussion

[Filipin00]

49 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Players often lose 100% of the HP in the first 5 minutes, with or without CV... xD

[Head_has_Exploded]

I really wanted the Enterprise but it has gone from the shop, was any thing mentioned about this by WG?

[mcboernester]

1 hour ago, Ronchabale said:

Have you played DD:s recently ?

I have and I find it a bit too much with the losing 75% of my small HP pool in the first 5 minutes even though I try to evade, not rush in etc. 

But thats just me and I am not a unicum DD player

 

I would trade 25 of my torp damage for 25% less rocket damage, I do have guns too

Passive. Don't rush towards cap like a madman, wait for your fleet to catch up. Press P to disable AA until you get spotted, then open up with O (reinforced sector). From my perspective flanking has become near impossible with 1 or even 2 CVs. Playing pure Torp botes for regrind felt really bad, got better with akizuki and kitakaze. If you want to cap or have to sail alone for some time make sure your smoke is of cooldown! The CVs dmg isnt really the problem but if he knows where you are be ready to get permaspotted unless you make it into friendly aa cover or smoke up. 

 

Aside from those tips those where my last games (solo):

 

 

This is from today and yesterday. For my own standards i consider it bad but as i ranted yesterday on hatsuharu there was that one game where the ark royal did nothing else but to strike me and its just ridicioulus how even "not so good" players can ruin your day just by permaspotting and chipping your health away bit by bit. He even missed me with rockets but someone thought its a great Idea to give Ark royal a super tight HE bomb spread so a hit even when dropping from the side is assured. 

 

It just strengthened my opinion that cvs destroy the gameplay experience. It feels unfun to play against when ppl just try to focus you down the whole game. And I still say its far worse than rts cause you cannot defend yourself in a way you can leave an encounter unharmed, not even with a colbert or wooster. I know its a tier difference in terms of dmg but you get the idea

 

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, FarQ2 said:

I really wanted the Enterprise but it has gone from the shop, was any thing mentioned about this by WG?

 

They made a Statement which in a very Polite and Indirect Way basicly could be Summed up as.

"Enterprise is way too Overpowered even for CV Standards and as our Policy Prohibits us from Nerfing Premium Ships it has been taken out of the Shop so others cannot Buy it anymore until maybe at Day X some Rework or General Update somehow Fixes it by Accident."

 

Of course any WG Employee will likely immediately Deny this and repeat the Official Statement which you can Read here.

 

 

 

But lets Face it and not Talk around the Hot Cake. She was OP as Hell and thus was Removed because WG does not Nerf Ships that were Sold for Real Money. End of Story.

WG Knows it. We Know it. Everyone Knows it. And @MrConway also knows it. Even if he would never say it like this...

 

Tough maybe he can answer your Question on wether WG has yet "Detected" the Reason for that "Fluctuation" in her Combat Efficiency and has any Idea on how they might Fix it without Nerfing her...

[Head_has_Exploded]

14 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

They made a Statement which in a very Polite and Indirect Way basicly could be Summed up as.

"Enterprise is way too Overpowered even for CV Standards and as our Policy Prohibits us from Nerfing Premium Ships it has been taken out of the Shop so others cannot Buy it anymore until maybe at Day X some Rework or General Update somehow Fixes it by Accident."

 

Of course any WG Employee will likely immediately Deny this and repeat the Official Statement which you can Read here.

 

 

 

But lets Face it and not Talk around the Hot Cake. She was OP as Hell and thus was Removed because WG does not Nerf Ships that were Sold for Real Money. End of Story.

WG Knows it. We Know it. Everyone Knows it. And @MrConway also knows it. Even if he would never say it like this...

 

Tough maybe he can answer your Question on wether WG has yet "Detected" the Reason for that "Fluctuation" in her Combat Efficiency and has any Idea on how they might Fix it without Nerfing her...

Ok never saw that one but from what i have watched on YouTube and seen in various threads haven't they nerfed the Graf Zeppelin?

[Sunleader]

8 minutes ago, FarQ2 said:

Ok never saw that one but from what i have watched on YouTube and seen in various threads haven't they nerfed the Graf Zeppelin?

 

Yes. But that was a Global Adjustment. So not a Direct Nerf to the Ship. It just ended up that this Particular Change was a Nerf for Graf Zeppelin.

They also Buffed her Right Afterwards a bit.

Of course she is still the Weakest out of the T8 CVs when consider the Aircraft. But she is also nowhere near as Bad as most People Claim.

[Head_has_Exploded]

Just now, Sunleader said:

 

Yes. But that was a Global Adjustment. So not a Direct Nerf to the Ship. It just ended up that this Particular Change was a Nerf for Graf Zeppelin.

They also Buffed her Right Afterwards a bit.

Of course she is still the Weakest out of the T8 CVs when consider the Aircraft. But she is also nowhere near as Bad as most People Claim.

OK thank you

[El2aZeR]

6 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Players often lose 100% of the HP in the first 5 minutes, with or without CV... xD

 

Yeah, real nice of you to leave out the difference between an avoidable death via own misplay and an inevitable death via CV as CVs don't actually have any counterplay options.

To even consider the thought that these two things are remotely comparable or relatable is stupidity of the highest order.

[veslingr]

6 hours ago, mcboernester said:

Passive. Don't rush towards cap like a madman, wait for your fleet to catch up. Press P to disable AA until you get spotted, then open up with O (reinforced sector). From my perspective flanking has become near impossible with 1 or even 2 CVs. Playing pure Torp botes for regrind felt really bad, got better with akizuki and kitakaze. If you want to cap or have to sail alone for some time make sure your smoke is of cooldown! The CVs dmg isnt really the problem but if he knows where you are be ready to get permaspotted unless you make it into friendly aa cover or smoke up. 

 

Aside from those tips those where my last games (solo):

 

 

This is from today and yesterday. For my own standards i consider it bad but as i ranted yesterday on hatsuharu there was that one game where the ark royal did nothing else but to strike me and its just ridicioulus how even "not so good" players can ruin your day just by permaspotting and chipping your health away bit by bit. He even missed me with rockets but someone thought its a great Idea to give Ark royal a super tight HE bomb spread so a hit even when dropping from the side is assured. 

 

It just strengthened my opinion that cvs destroy the gameplay experience. It feels unfun to play against when ppl just try to focus you down the whole game. And I still say its far worse than rts cause you cannot defend yourself in a way you can leave an encounter unharmed, not even with a colbert or wooster. I know its a tier difference in terms of dmg but you get the idea

 

This is my last 120 and some game. It is clearly that wining in DD is impossible due to cv that kills you and spots you all the match. Right. Keep the mantra. 

 

Fact is that there are 80% or more extremely bad cv players that you do not care for and play as they are not in game. 15 % good that you need to be careful and only 1% that will dominate you by using full potential of CV. And than you have 50-50 chance that this 1% player ends in your side. 

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, veslingr said:

This is my last 120 and some game. It is clearly that wining in DD is impossible due to cv that kills you and spots you all the match. Right. Keep the mantra. 

 

Fact is that there are 80% or more extremely bad cv players that you do not care for and play as they are not in game. 15 % good that you need to be careful and only 1% that will dominate you by using full potential of CV. And than you have 50-50 chance that this 1% player ends in your side. 

 

Ok...

There is 2 Importand things Wrong with that Post.

 

1.

Oh my God. We are so Impressed.

Class Statistics which dont even List the Ships used. And that from an Unknown Account which we cannot Check or Verify nor in any way Confirm to actually be yours.

 

Mate. No Offense. But if you want to keep your Statistics Private. Then keep your Statistics Private. Thats your Good Right.

Dont try to Post Statistics which we cannot Confirm to actually be yours and Expect them to have any Meaning to us.

 

We cannot Confirm this is your Statistics, We cannot Confirm this was not Statistics Reached by having a Division Carry you around, We cannot Confirm which Ships and which Tier Level you Produced these Statistics in. Heck we cant even Confirm if this is Random Battle Statistics or Coop Statistics.

 

So unless you can Back up that this is actually Your Stats and give us the Link to the Profile so we can actually Check which Ships you used and where you Achieved them.

Posting such Screenshots is Pretty meaningless.

 

2.

Mate. I dont know if you actually Realized this. But your Winrate in a Destroyer is entirely Irrelevant to CVs being Overpowered or not.

Because guess what. CVs tend to be either in Both Teams or in no Team.

So your Winrate is absolutely Unaffected by CVs as whatever the Enemy CV can do to Ruin your Influence in the Game. Is something your own CV can also do.

Meaning that you Winning is actually not at all Related to CVs being Overpowered.

 

This is actually a rather common Misconception. For some Reason People always think being Overpowered means you cannot Lose.

Forgetting that thanks to how MM Works. Overpowered Ships actually tend to be on both Sides and thus dont really affect Winrate that much....

 

[rnat]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

2.

Mate. I dont know if you actually Realized this. But your Winrate in a Destroyer is entirely Irrelevant to CVs being Overpowered or not.

Because guess what. CVs tend to be either in Both Teams or in no Team.

So your Winrate is absolutely Unaffected by CVs as whatever the Enemy CV can do to Ruin your Influence in the Game. Is something your own CV can also do.

Meaning that you Winning is actually not at all Related to CVs being Overpowered. 

That is actually not true. If CVs were on average over performing  against DDs (or any other class for that matter) by a significant degree the WR-curve of that class would flatten out.

I.e. The Skill/WR curve would become less steep / WR distribution more narrow since the influence that class has or can have will be diminished by quite a bit.

Luckily for that the average CV-player would need to be decent and that's a rather faulty assumption.

[Sunleader]

4 minutes ago, rnat said:

That is actually not true. If CVs were on average over performing  against DDs (or any other class for that matter) by a significant degree the WR-curve of that class would flatten out.

I.e. The Skill/WR curve would become less steep / WR distribution more narrow since the influence that class has or can have will be diminished by quite a bit.

Luckily for that the average CV-player would need to be decent and that's a rather faulty assumption.

 

Mate no Offense. But turn the Switch on your Brain to "On" and then think about this.

 

The MM will Match a CV against a CV. ALWAYS.

And the DD against a DD. ALWAYS.

 

So for every DD that Loses due to a CV. Another DD Wins due to that same CV.

DD WR does not change in the Slightest from this. Because no matter what happens. The CVs are always present on both Sides.

 

You could in Theory Argue that by the CV having more Influence on Battle the WR would Chance a bit.

But as CVs always had High Influence on the Match long before they became DD Hunters you could not Escape.

So there would be no Difference to before. Or if any then in 0.0x Percentage.

 

 

[Ronchabale]

9 hours ago, mcboernester said:

Passive. Don't rush towards cap like a madman, wait for your fleet to catch up. Press P to disable AA until you get spotted, then open up with O (reinforced sector). From my perspective flanking has become near impossible with 1 or even 2 CVs. Playing pure Torp botes for regrind felt really bad, got better with akizuki and kitakaze. If you want to cap or have to sail alone for some time make sure your smoke is of cooldown! The CVs dmg isnt really the problem but if he knows where you are be ready to get permaspotted unless you make it into friendly aa cover or smoke up. 

This is pretty much how I try to play, do have the Akizuki and yes it can bite back

9 hours ago, mcboernester said:

 

Aside from those tips those where my last games (solo):

 

 

This is from today and yesterday. For my own standards i consider it bad but as i ranted yesterday on hatsuharu there was that one game where the ark royal did nothing else but to strike me and its just ridicioulus how even "not so good" players can ruin your day just by permaspotting and chipping your health away bit by bit. He even missed me with rockets but someone thought its a great Idea to give Ark royal a super tight HE bomb spread so a hit even when dropping from the side is assured. 

True, in Hatsu and Fubuki you are pretty much dead if CV spots you, the low health pool puts you at a great disadvantage in these encounters

9 hours ago, mcboernester said:

 

It just strengthened my opinion that cvs destroy the gameplay experience. It feels unfun to play against when ppl just try to focus you down the whole game. And I still say its far worse than rts cause you cannot defend yourself in a way you can leave an encounter unharmed, not even with a colbert or wooster. I know its a tier difference in terms of dmg but you get the idea

 

Hmm.. as a DD you have no options except staying back and half your team reporting you for being too passive

 

 

 

9 hours ago, mcboernester said:

 

 

[Capra76]

4 hours ago, veslingr said:

This is my last 120 and some game. It is clearly that wining in DD is impossible due to cv that kills you and spots you all the match. Right. Keep the mantra.

 

Yeah, lets ignore the fact that over 50% of those games were in x3 (presumably voice linked) divisions and exactly 0% of the DD games were played solo (and only 15% even in x2 divisions).

 

 

 

Edit:

 

@Sunleader he's using his @WingedHussar_Adler account for these stats.

[mcboernester]

6 hours ago, veslingr said:

Fact is that there are 80% or more extremely bad cv players that you do not care for and play as they are not in game. 15 % good that you need to be careful and only 1% that will dominate you by using full potential of CV. And than you have 50-50 chance that this 1% player ends in your side. 

 

And that to be honest is the wrong way of approaching broken ships, its the way wg does it with their spreadsheet balancing which actually misses a huge variable -> the potential.

 

Just for a example smolensk is around 80k average dmg right now on eu server (which is still 15k more then a des moines but i guess spreadsheets dont work on russian bias).  There are ppl with 20-30k average dmg in >100games on her ( how...) , but there are also ppl with 160-180k. The Problem here is, if you just add up the numbers it tells half the story. The other half is that a ship like the smolensk has the capability to control a flank basically alone thanks to very high dps and trollish armor, left alone smoke. 

 

The thing with this "ships controlling games" is something a spreadsheet will never be able to tell you. You have to listen to good players for that matter or even play yourself on that level, and thats something im missing to see @WG. Its the same Reason why lineups in toptier CBs are so messed up. 3+ klebers, russian bbs, russian cruisers, a henri / daring / shim / somers /bon jovi every now and then.

[rnat]

20 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Mate no Offense. But turn the Switch on your Brain to "On" and then think about this. 

 

The MM will Match a CV against a CV. ALWAYS.

And the DD against a DD. ALWAYS.

 

So for every DD that Loses due to a CV. Another DD Wins due to that same CV.

DD WR does not change in the Slightest from this. Because no matter what happens. The CVs are always present on both Sides.

I wouldn't take any if your argument wasn't overly reductionist and simplistic and did actually counter my reasoning.

So I shall illustrate my point in a bit more detail so you can precisely tell me why I'm wrong.

You have a point in the sense that the average WR for DDs overall will not change. That's 50% tho.

Any difference from 50% in a players ship-WR is directly tied to the difference in influence that player on average has on the outcome of the match when compared to his MM-opposite,

which in our case would be a mix of the average of the enemy DDs around your tier and over-all (since tier-mirrored DD-spawns aren't guaranteed but are reasonably likely).

The only big assumption i need to make is that post- as pre-reeeework DDs are at the very top of the target list. (unless the tactical situation demands something different)

Now let's put a competent CV on each team. Bear, Smolazer, You, doesn't matter. (Even me if your standards are sufficiently low )

That means DDs are more often than not under threat of aerial spotting, eating focus-fire and air-attacks. So they have to play safe, avoid making big plays or die.

Now there certainly is a significant margin in how a DD can accomplish under those circumstances but you will have to agree that against a good CV your options are severely limited.

And let's face it those that lack the skill to do much but die likely wouldn't have accomplished too much without the CV either.

This was the case pre-rework and is even more so now, since Def-AA, AA builds (on some ships) and seeking temporary shelter are much less able in keeping the DD safe.

 

So against a good CV (even more post-rework) the influence a good DD can have is diminished more (in absolute terms) that that of a bad DD.

So both values will be shifted towards the average and we get a narrower WR distribution.

The Influence of the CV is already averaged out here.

 

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

You could in Theory Argue that by the CV having more Influence on Battle the WR would Chance a bit.

But as CVs always had High Influence on the Match long before they became DD Hunters you could not Escape.

So there would be no Difference to before. Or if any then in 0.0x Percentage. 

As I already pointed out the reason that this isn't a "thing" is that "the average CV-player is competent" is a false assumption.

This isn't even a reeeework is broken- kind of thing. This is more universal than that.

But I would like you to think of all the times an enemy DD carried hard and your team wasn't already loosing comprehensively:

-When your CV is good (e.g. yourself)

-When there's no CV or a bad CV on your team.

And ofc the same with the teams swapped. You should find a distinct drop in the numbers.

At least I don't have many CV games when the enemy DDs could do very much for their team when i sought them out.

[El2aZeR]

So despite dedicated CV missions going on the numbers remain absolutely pathetic.

Truly the rework is such a great success.

[veslingr]

7 hours ago, mcboernester said:

And that to be honest is the wrong way of approaching broken ships, its the way wg does it with their spreadsheet balancing which actually misses a huge variable -> the potential.

 

Just for a example smolensk is around 80k average dmg right now on eu server (which is still 15k more then a des moines but i guess spreadsheets dont work on russian bias).  There are ppl with 20-30k average dmg in >100games on her ( how...) , but there are also ppl with 160-180k. The Problem here is, if you just add up the numbers it tells half the story. The other half is that a ship like the smolensk has the capability to control a flank basically alone thanks to very high dps and trollish armor, left alone smoke. 

 

The thing with this "ships controlling games" is something a spreadsheet will never be able to tell you. You have to listen to good players for that matter or even play yourself on that level, and thats something im missing to see @WG. Its the same Reason why lineups in toptier CBs are so messed up. 3+ klebers, russian bbs, russian cruisers, a henri / daring / shim / somers /bon jovi every now and then.

well i can see their point also....they work with what they have (player base)....for instance if they would balance ship according to their max potential (that 5% or less player can pulll out of ship) most ships would be overnerfed for majority of community who couldn't do crap in it. And that is valid point that can not be overlooked.

 

Also, in current state of CV AND state of playerbase WHO PLAYS CV they are not that big problem and most players can deal with it and still carr games against CV in game.

 

Most conversation and argument here is theorycrafting what would be if everybody could use CV to their strenght..once you actually log into game you have whole other dimension of reality where it is more common for CV to end last on scoreboard than to carry team.

 

in theory CV are big problem for this game, but IN GAME they are not because of - players who drive it.

[veslingr]

8 hours ago, Capra76 said:

 

Yeah, lets ignore the fact that over 50% of those games were in x3 (presumably voice linked) divisions and exactly 0% of the DD games were played solo (and only 15% even in x2 divisions).

 

 

 

Edit:

 

@Sunleader he's using his @WingedHussar_Adler account for these stats.

so you admit that team play wins over CV?

[CptBarney]

Come on ladz only 13 moar pages to go.

 

@El2aZeR Never knew there were CV missions lol.

[HassenderZerhacker]

again just coming out of a battle with Kaiser... again got 3 carriers concentrated on me... carriers are just plain TOXIC. it makes no sense at all to play anything else than carriers or ships that are able to dodge.

 

WG, FIX YOUR CARRIERS, why do you need 500 pages of posts about that subject, just do it.

[DrMechano]

Here's the one thing they REALLY should do.

 

Just ditch the bloody flak system, it doesn't work apart from on unskilled CV players, take the damage that flak would do and redistribute it back into the short, medium and long range AA. However WG are so proud of the 'spectacle' the flak system gives the game that I doubt they'll do it. Plus since when has WG ever listened to feedback from the non-russian players?

 

Lets face it, this thread was put here so that they could ignore it and just give the playerbase somewhere to 'discuss' it without it clogging up the forums. They're done with the rework and are refusing to do anything more with it. I bet another 5 years down the line we'll get ANOTHER CV rework when the devs can actually be bothered.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

41 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Come on ladz only 13 moar pages to go.

 

@El2aZeR Never knew there were CV missions lol.

 

In each stage of the current Italian Cruiser missions, there's one mission dedicated to each ship class, including CVs

 

[CptBarney]

52 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

In each stage of the current Italian Cruiser missions, there's one mission dedicated to each ship class, including CVs

 

I havent been paying attenttion much thanks to uni lol.

 

But thats good i guess will give me an excuse to play french dds and maybe someother dd line as well.

[Sunleader]

9 hours ago, Capra76 said:

 

Yeah, lets ignore the fact that over 50% of those games were in x3 (presumably voice linked) divisions and exactly 0% of the DD games were played solo (and only 15% even in x2 divisions).

 

 

 

Edit:

 

@Sunleader he's using his @WingedHussar_Adler account for these stats.

 

8 hours ago, rnat said:

I wouldn't take any if your argument wasn't overly reductionist and simplistic and did actually counter my reasoning.

So I shall illustrate my point in a bit more detail so you can precisely tell me why I'm wrong.

You have a point in the sense that the average WR for DDs overall will not change. That's 50% tho.

Any difference from 50% in a players ship-WR is directly tied to the difference in influence that player on average has on the outcome of the match when compared to his MM-opposite,

which in our case would be a mix of the average of the enemy DDs around your tier and over-all (since tier-mirrored DD-spawns aren't guaranteed but are reasonably likely).

The only big assumption i need to make is that post- as pre-reeeework DDs are at the very top of the target list. (unless the tactical situation demands something different)

Now let's put a competent CV on each team. Bear, Smolazer, You, doesn't matter. (Even me if your standards are sufficiently low )

That means DDs are more often than not under threat of aerial spotting, eating focus-fire and air-attacks. So they have to play safe, avoid making big plays or die.

Now there certainly is a significant margin in how a DD can accomplish under those circumstances but you will have to agree that against a good CV your options are severely limited.

And let's face it those that lack the skill to do much but die likely wouldn't have accomplished too much without the CV either.

This was the case pre-rework and is even more so now, since Def-AA, AA builds (on some ships) and seeking temporary shelter are much less able in keeping the DD safe.

 

So against a good CV (even more post-rework) the influence a good DD can have is diminished more (in absolute terms) that that of a bad DD.

So both values will be shifted towards the average and we get a narrower WR distribution.

The Influence of the CV is already averaged out here.

 

As I already pointed out the reason that this isn't a "thing" is that "the average CV-player is competent" is a false assumption.

This isn't even a reeeework is broken- kind of thing. This is more universal than that.

But I would like you to think of all the times an enemy DD carried hard and your team wasn't already loosing comprehensively:

-When your CV is good (e.g. yourself)

-When there's no CV or a bad CV on your team.

And ofc the same with the teams swapped. You should find a distinct drop in the numbers.

At least I don't have many CV games when the enemy DDs could do very much for their team when i sought them out.

 

Then Take Offense lol.

 

1.

No.

Because from the Get Go 50% is not the Standard that one Player has. Especially not when he only Plays 20 or so Games in a Specific Ship.

For example.

On my Ernst Gaede I have a Winrate of 60% for about 50 Games Played. But I actually did absolutely Horrible. I completely Sucked in that DD.

Meanwhile in my HSF Harekaze I am actually doing Decently in Games. But I have a Winrate of about 30% because most of the Teams I get have been Completely Potato.

You would get the same Result if you simply took several DDs and just went AFK with them for Matches. They would get vastly Different Winrates simply due to what Team they get.

In Theory of Course each of them should even out after like 1000 or so Games. But that is Theory. Its only True if you take 1000 Players where each Player has 1000 Matches in that DD.

Because what People often Forget with Average Statistics. Is that Average Statistics are not Calculated using a Single Person.

 

2.

The only Time you dont get Same Tier DD Spawns is Late Night when MM has Trouble Finding Players. So this is Neglectable.

 

3.

A DD Playing Safe becomes entirely Irrelevant to the Teams Success regardless of how Skilled he is.

Thats why from the Start most Good DD Players will actually Play Aggressive reagardless of CVs. And thats also where your Theory Breaks apart.

Because CVs have been here and have been the Biggest Influence even back in RTS Times.

The Difference is. In RTS Times a CV would effectively Hinder all DDs on a Team a little bit. While now he instead will Block 1 of the DDs Completely and possibly Eliminate the DDs one by one rather than just keeping all of em useless with Fighter Scouting.

 

So No. On a Statistical Viewpoint the Influence of a DD Player is still the exactly same as before. Because for Every Match where he is the Poor Soul Focused by the CV and thus running a 0 Round.

He also has 2-3 Matches where another DD is the Poor Soul Focused by the CV and thus he effectively is in a CV Game but not really bothered by the Enemy CV at all.

In RTS he would have been bothered by CV in all 3-4 Rounds but in 1 Round it would have been less Bad for him.

 

Ultimately it Evens out to be the same as before again. Or maybe there is a Difference. But that Difference would be in the 0.0x Percentage Area and thus be completely Neglectable.

 

4.

This is also Wrong. Because you Forget that the same goes for the DDs.

The Average CV Player is Average. That is the thing with Average. The Good are Decided by being above Average.

But DDs are not all Competent either. Most of them are Potato just like for every other Class.

Thats why this is completely Irrelevant here.

 

The Rework has no Effect on Winrates Mate. The Rework only made CVs Overpowered and CVs are always Matched against CVs. So for the Winrate this Change has been Completely Neutral.

 

5.

Thing is Mate. That Example is Completely Irrelevant.

If you had a Good CV and the Enemy had a Bad CV. Then it doesnt matter if its RTS or Rework. The Enemy DDs will not have much Influence on the Outcome because they will be Focused and Eliminated fairly Quickly.

While your DDs at the same time of course have a Tremendous Influence on the Outcome because the Enemy CV is not bothering them and thus if they Play Properly they will easily Ruin the Enemies chances to Push and have them Cornered in no Time.

When there is no CV on your Team the DDs Influence is always High because there is no CV on the Enemy Team either. Again not changing compared to before.

And if there is a Bad CV on your Team the Question is how Good is enemy CV. If the Enemy CV is Good then your Teams DD wont have any Influence. BUT the Enemy Teams DDs will be extremely Influental in the Game.

If both CVs are Crab then the DDs will have Reasonable Influence.

 

This is no Different to Before. And more Importandly. As in all cases the DD as a Class Remains Influental to the Match your Winrate is not really Changed by the CV.

 

6.

Your Argument is that if the CV takes away Influence from a DD. A Good DD should get closer to 50% Winrate.

But that is a Fallacy. Because from the Start. For every Game where a Good CV Completely Blocks you out of the Game. There is also a Game where the Good CV is on your Team and Completely Removes the Enemy DDs from the Equation and Allowing you to have a Field Day on the Enemy Fleet.

 

In Effect your own Statement above actually Works against you here. Because Competent CVs not being the Standard is exactly why your Calculation Fails.

Because the only Games where DD Influence is Diminished compared to before. Is when both Teams have a Competent CV.

Because only then the Influence of both Teams DDs is effectively Removed.

But Games where both CVs are Competent are pretty Rare.

 

 

 

You can also See that on Vesling by the Way.

All his Games where he Played DD with a Good Winrate was Division Games.

He likely took a Friend who is Good in CV with him.

Meaning that the True Reason for the Good Winrate is not his DD Skills but actually the CV Players Skills.

 

If you actually look at his Specific Stats and Switch the Display to Triple Division. You Notice that this is where pretty much all of his DD Games are.

And you also immediately Notice. That for a Strange Magical Reason. The Games where he made Aircraft Kills (Which even a DD will always do when he is Focused by a CV. Even a Shimakaze will kill some Planes in that case) he actually did Horrible. Not getting any Results at all. But still Winning thanks to his Division which likely had a Good CV Player.

Meanwhile in the Games where he had no Plane Kills and thus likely no CV bothering him. He did Pretty Good. But actually has a lower Winrate in Average. Likely because his Squadmate didnt use a CV and they were lucky enough to not get a CV in the Game either.

 

56 minutes ago, veslingr said:

so you admit that team play wins over CV?

 

So you Admit that CVs are currently so Insanely Overpowered that you need a Triple Division to Beat a Single Random CV Player ? :)

 

Also. Actually its still Irrelevant because again. BOTH Teams have a CV..... So your Winrate is not Affected by how OP CVs are....