CV Rework Discussion

[veslingr]

19 minutes ago, Armorin said:

 

The losing teams CV doesn't have to be the last on the scoreboard if you come up against @El2aZeR 

 

If there where no CV's though, and only one BB allowed per match, would a decent BB player be able to get similar win rates to CV's than us average plebs in the BB? We used to do much better in clan battles in the early days when our now THROW player used to make most matches 7v5. 

You die not lose because of enemie great cv. You would loose it if he was AFK. 

 

Also WR depends on a player not ship. 

[rnat]

20 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Also WR depends on a player not ship.  

So if i play nothing but Belfast, Baltimore and Kutuzov the WR will be the same as if i had played Yorck, Hipper and Edinburgh all day ?

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, rnat said:

So if i play nothing but Belfast, Baltimore and Kutuzov the WR will be the same as if i had played Yorck, Hipper and Edinburgh all day ?

I dont know. Would you?

 

 

[Armorin]

48 minutes ago, veslingr said:

You die not lose because of enemie great cv. You would loose it if he was AFK. 

 

I don't think the difference between a good CV player and a bad one is as influential as some people think. It's just an easy blame game. A good DD player can make themselves a very hard target and waste a lot of the CV players time.

Division play has a greater influence in random matches IMO. When I was playing around with my own stats database, which was pretty comprehensive, the vast majority of TX ships had a below 50% solo win rate.

[rnat]

Sorry for the slight off-topic that follows but i feel obliged to take the bait.

 

1 hour ago, veslingr said:

I dont know. Would you?

Not with complete certainty but statistically it's clearly gonna make a difference.

As you can see below i clearly do better in the Baltimore than the Hipper.

 

Spoiler

That comparison isn't very fair though since the Hipper and Mogami were my first T8 CA (yes, no IFHE Mogamin for me back then), which shows in the numbers.

(Same reason i'm not mentioning the Yorck here, as for the Belfast and Kutu: I just don't have them)

So let's look at some server-wide stats:

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4181636912,Admiral-Hipper/

As you can see the ppl playing Baltimore outperform those playing in the Hipper across all categories (All players, best 50%, best 25% ect.)

You can actually see the same pattern with the Belfast and Flint, which are significantly outperforming all other cruisers at that tier throughout all categories.

 

To give you as fair a single-player comparison as i can let's take 2 ships i mostly played around the same time (in Randoms), i.e. when the USN cruiser split happened,

both of which have a playstyle I am familiar and comfortable with: Buffalo and Seattle

Spoiler

As you can see there's a clear difference in what i tend to achieve in either of those ships. Not so much dmg-wise but in being able to carry the team.

On a side note: If you bother to check server-wide stats you actually see the opposite, Seattle outperforming Buffalo. That doesn't affect my argument though,

since the games those numbers are from are from a time when the Seattle had a few "problems" that were since then patched out (e.g. bugged range on the B-hull)

 

TLDR:

There is a clear difference in performance between ships. Sometimes small, sometimes large.

It can be seen in stats to a bigger or smaller degree. (compare skill ceiling v. skill floor of a ship for a given performance)

And yes, there are clear over-performers (Belfast, Enty, GC ect.) and under-performers (Emerald, Implacable, Kawachi, Colorado)

If you look at the stats on a broader scale or even play the game yourself with some awareness there is no denying any of that.

 

[Capra76]

1 hour ago, Armorin said:

I don't think the difference between a good CV player and a bad one is as influential as some people think.

 

Calling @El2aZeR

 

 

1 hour ago, Armorin said:

good DD player can make themselves a very hard target and waste a lot of the CV players time.

 

And a good CV player will be able to judge the cost/benefit and react accordingly.

[Armorin]

@Capra76, I'm not saying that CV's aren't influential. They are typically played 1v1 which amplifies performance between the players greater than say a BB player who is one of typically 5.

Players like @El2aZeRare gifted in all classes. I think he once stated he dislikes 2v2 CV games as the other CV effects his influence!

If teams where limited to 1 BB per match, the better BB player would swing more games in his favour has he blaps more cruisers on each salvo, whilst the lesser BB player struggles to land a meaningful shot.

Same thing is probably going to happen with Subs.

CV's should really be balanced for their effect being useful in 6v6 situations. Then they could be added to clan wars. Not sure the current design works though. I don't think it's working as intended as it seems to be flying a small attack squad around with a few wing mates to eat continuous dps.

[LowSpeedHighDrag]

2 hours ago, Capra76 said:

And a good CV player will be able to judge the cost/benefit and react accordingly.

So like using Stock planes vs Upgraded, and not dropping Fighters?

 

[Sunleader]

Wow...

So I am Trying to get my Ranger Doubled.

Several Games in a Row. My Team just Refuses to move away from the Spawn. Allowing the Enemy to Take all Capture Points Unopposed while they are hiding behind Islands or on the Map Border.

Then I am Finally about to Win a Game. A very Ridiculous Game with only 4 People on each side thanks to Nighttime MM.... I go to Map to Correct my Autopilot which for some reason wants to reverse out of my Cover. And then my Screen gets Stuck.

I cant do anything anymore aside from Watching my Planes just Fly over the Target and head straight forward.

Tried to Tab Out, Tried to Click Enter, Space, Alt etc etc to see if anything Locked. Tried to set a Course on Map again. Nothing Helps. Just sit there while an Enemy Warspite that was nearly Dead was Driving around my Island and then Leisurely Killed me likely wondering what the Hell I was doing.

 

@El2aZeR @Yoshanai

Does anyone here know this Bug ?

It happened when I picked up a Point of my Autopilot and moved it a bit towards my CV (You cant Click on your CV for Autopilot Targets so this is the only way to make it go to a Position close to your CV)

The Game Completely Bugged out after that. No way to Salvage it. When the Match Result Screen came it just went to this and Froze entirely.

 

 

I tried to make Several Screenshots. But the Game did not Record any.

So the Only Screenshot I have is the last one which I put into a JPEG File from Print Screen.

 

I checked the Replay. But as the Replay does not Show the Mouse of the Player you cant really see much on it.

20191119_034057_PASA106-Ranger_05_Ring.wowsreplay

 

 

I Checked. But even tough the only way for me to get out was to Crash the Process in the Task Manager there has been no Crash Report Dump or Log File Created.

 

 

 

[El2aZeR]

9 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Does anyone here know this Bug ?

 

It's several months old at this point. I doubt it'll ever get fixed.

To "fix" it you need to kill the game via taskmanager and restart. No other way around it.

 

"Rework is less buggy than RTS" lol.

[Sunleader]

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

It's several months old at this point. I doubt it'll ever get fixed.

To "fix" it you need to kill the game via taskmanager and restart. No other way around it.

 

"Rework is less buggy than RTS" lol.

 

Sigh...

Guess I am not going to move any Autopilot Points around anymore then....

Thanks for the Answer.

 

If it had not been known yet I would have filed a Bug Report. But if its Several Months old already I guess I can spare myself the Effort.

 

[El2aZeR]

8 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Guess I am not going to move any Autopilot Points around anymore then....

 

Actually any action with the mouse while playing CVs can trigger it afaik.

[Yedwy]

7 hours ago, veslingr said:

I dont know. Would you?

He wouldnt, there are ships that when used properly or to say it bluntly when you use and abuse their strengths vs the enemy basically carry your WR up...

 

Belfast is a good example - she is a dedicated DD killer, there is basically nothing a DD can do against her except run away if there is enough time to do so, as she has radar and smoke that allow her to go in cap smoke up and fire away unseen and her radar lasts long enough for her to kill any DD in said cap, heck even two of them, she has hydro so no torp surprise either and her 6" guns are still strong enough to hurt most MM ships when using IFHE so she is not dangerous only to DDs but to everything else... This is a ship that can boost your WR and that is a clear sign of an OP ship, that is exactly why it was removed

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Stunden, Sunleader sagte:

 

Sigh...

Guess I am not going to move any Autopilot Points around anymore then....

Thanks for the Answer.

 

If it had not been known yet I would have filed a Bug Report. But if its Several Months old already I guess I can spare myself the Effort.

 

If it helps, i last encountered that bug around 8.5 - 8.6. Havent had it happen since then. 

There has to be some kind of triggerbfor this for it to appear or I'm just lucky. 

[LordTareq]

Haven’t had that bug yet thankfully, I do occasionally get a bug where the squadron no longer turns by mouse, extremely annoying. And another one which may be latency related where while flying in a straight line the squadron will suddenly do a 360 degrees turn.

[BLUB__BLUB]

5 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

"Rework is less buggy than RTS" lol.

It is. With RTS I got PC freeze/lag/strange stuff happening about 1 in 10 games.

With the Reeeeework I get such stuff ~once per month. So, less buggy. 

Granted, it was easy to improve that... and still bugged.... but hey. 

It is like, first you torch the whole country and now just a small city, let's call it "success".

 

[veslingr]

10 hours ago, rnat said:

 

 

TLDR:

There is a clear difference in performance between ships. Sometimes small, sometimes large.

It can be seen in stats to a bigger or smaller degree. (compare skill ceiling v. skill floor of a ship for a given performance)

And yes, there are clear over-performers (Belfast, Enty, GC ect.) and under-performers (Emerald, Implacable, Kawachi, Colorado)

If you look at the stats on a broader scale or even play the game yourself with some awareness there is no denying any of that.

 

And everything here is true....but also there are certain personal preferences of a ship/class...and in the end....player wins not a ship.....which clearly can be seen with result of games where known op/strong ships are sitting on the bottom of the table.

[veslingr]

4 hours ago, Yedwy said:

He wouldnt, there are ships that when used properly or to say it bluntly when you use and abuse their strengths vs the enemy basically carry your WR up...

 

Belfast is a good example - she is a dedicated DD killer, there is basically nothing a DD can do against her except run away if there is enough time to do so, as she has radar and smoke that allow her to go in cap smoke up and fire away unseen and her radar lasts long enough for her to kill any DD in said cap, heck even two of them, she has hydro so no torp surprise either and her 6" guns are still strong enough to hurt most MM ships when using IFHE so she is not dangerous only to DDs but to everything else... This is a ship that can boost your WR and that is a clear sign of an OP ship, that is exactly why it was removed

in other pot there was Edinburgh....i know players (good players) who would take it any time over Belfast due to torpedos.

Yes there are better ships and worst ships, nobody denying that...but in the end it is all captain hands  

[Yedwy]

Edinburg is T8 and depending on the MM I might agree BUT Belfast smoke&radar combo is something only one other ship in game has (Black) and there is a reason for that, ie a Belf (or even a Black) is consumable wise a two ship division...

[veslingr]

4 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Edinburg is T8 and depending on the MM I might agree BUT Belfast smoke&radar combo is something only one other ship in game has (Black) and there is a reason for that, ie a Belf (or even a Black) is consumable wise a two ship division...

dont forget hydro :)

[Yedwy]

21 minutes ago, veslingr said:

dont forget hydro :)

Many ships have smoke and hydro combo but yes hydro is handy as well

[Aixin]

Just one quick question.... Why are the T8 CVs way better then the T10 ones? I somehow suck epicly in T10 cvs. I have no idea why Cuz I even do good in T10 battles in my T8 CVs... 

[Spearhawk1969]

On 11/18/2019 at 2:04 AM, EgyptOverseer said:

And somehow CV apologists are bombing a thread about this saying spotting is irrelevant... 

I counter that with saying spotting is irrelevant unless used properly, can't just spot for nothing.

It is up to the CV to spot yes, but it is up to the team to the best they can with that info.

Same with aircraft protection, if popped and someone moves out of the area then the CV done its best and its the person moving out thats at fault unless there are circumstances requiring to move.

The CV is support, not slave, not spot b***c, ask and I am sure that any CV will give you their best effort 

but it is still the teams choise what to do with the info.

 

I have MANY times spotted peeps and the team done no damage and because I spent spotting my damage dropped to 30-40k's and I 

loose out of the silver and xp gained I could have been torp or rocketing dd's. 

 

so it is a TEAM effort, spotting is important but so is team work.

[Spearhawk1969]

Just now, Karotte_marksman said:

Just one quick question.... Why are the T8 CVs way better then the T10 ones? I somehow suck epicly in T10 cvs. I have no idea why Cuz I even do good in T10 battles in my T8 CVs... 

in t10 you mean other t10 ships, they are far superior in AA etc than T8

[Aixin]

Vor 6 Minuten, Spearhawk1969 sagte:

in t10 you mean other t10 ships, they are far superior in AA etc than T8

Still they are also there when I play T8 CV and are matched vs them. So I don't know normally they would be so strong that you could match the better aa in t10(well it works somehow) but still I am not as influential as if I was in my T8 CV vs the same ship. I really can't imagine why this is the case. Is aa tuned down vs low Tier planes or what? Well thanks anyway. :)