CV Rework Discussion

[HaachamaShipping]

4 minutes ago, MrBourpif said:

Totally agree ! But the fact she is more difficult to handle makes her less effective, because no mistake is allowed. and sometimes possible attack vectors are satured with AA

CVs overall are more difficult. Yet a good CV can murder things with absolute ease. If you just stop making the most grave mistakes, you already start wrecking people with ease and if you actually get good, you can go enjoy your deep purple super unicum stats. And if one attack vector has too much AA for your liking, take a different one. It's not like there is just one. Even worst case, you just take the bombers, slingshot in and carpet drop to set fires and deplete the AA.

 

CVs are not necessarily the easiest class, but that does not justify that you can just easily kill whatever you have to kill and carry games regardless of the enemy player skill or actions. And it gets just worse when you have CVs that are more forgiving or have even more devastating armaments (though, let's not pretent that Ark Royal's weaponry is not devastating, because for its tier, when the planes arrive, the offensive power can be pretty bonkers). In every other class, enemy skill can at least somewhat negate mine. In CVs, if the CV player is just somewhat capable, the only thing a target can do is choose between different terrible options, none which win the game, all which are way out of proportion to what CV players have to invest to force that play.

[BLUB__BLUB]

27 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Planes are faster than a ship and more maneuverable than a ship.

Faster yes. Even the biplanes from AR are faster than a French DD on speedboost. 

However... they are less manoeuvrable, because they can't brake to a standstill, also many DDs have a tighter turning circle.

 

27 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

The torps can be dropped from pretty much point-blank on both CVs and have the same speed.

Agreed. If you read again, note that I am specifically talking about the THIRD torp. 

You know, the one AR has and Furry simply has not. 

The one that always misses the DD... (because DD too short). 

Eh... well actually the DD is already dad if he eats tow but you get the point I hope. 

 

27 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

If your torps miss more often, then it is because the approach is bad, which just means more effort has to be put into how to approach a target.

I disagree on that one. Planes on AR are so slow, if a cruiser that knows how to play goes "full avoidance",

AKA full brake and turn, you'll never get that 3rd torp in. You might even miss the 2nd torp. Of course you'll ALWAYS hit one.

Also, the French BBs with speedboost can always avoid the 3rd. 

 

Not so with Furious. Ships have less time to react. Also, you only have 2 torps. 

You will hit two torps every time unless you have FF-ed it up. 

 

27 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

On proper approach, it's not like you are going to dodge either of the two CVs' drops.

See above. Show me a replay where you do not miss any torp at all. 

 

27 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Ark Royal is harder to play than Furious because of the bad plane speed requiring proper planning in whom and how to approach to get your impact.

Bad plane speed indeed, but it cannot all be solved by "proper approach". 

They can see the planes coming from 10km. If the ship takes proper action I'll never get all torps in. 

Same goes for rockets, depending on the ship (can't miss a BB... or a cruiser with those).

HE bombs... well depending on RNG of sorts, but those usually do not miss either. 

So - as for proper approach, unless you mean "approach with mountain cover", that always works. 

 

27 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Properly executed, it's a splendid ship though.

Yes, the challenge is now to get 200K from her. Should be possible. 

 

13 minutes ago, MrBourpif said:

Totally agree ! But the fact she is more difficult to handle makes her less effective, because no mistake is allowed. and sometimes possible attack vectors are satured with AA

I think not "less effective" (I can do just as well, easily...) but more challenging, which is why I prefer AR over the other CVs.

Also, I wonder what you mean by "saturated with AA". You can see when they use the vector ("pressed O"). 

So you can also "bait" them. It only lasts a little while - after that the FLAK does the same damage an is same size again.

THAT is when you start the real attack - if you cannot avoid the FLAK altogether anyway (which is "dark art", maybe?).

And on blobs, it is a matter of pre-drop + slingshot. Or dump torps from distance... see them run... 

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Faster yes. Even the biplanes from AR are faster than a French DD on speedboost. 

However... they are less manoeuvrable, because they can't brake to a standstill, also many DDs have a tighter turning circle.

Can I laugh? T8 Graf Zeppelin Me-155s already have a 590 m turning circle on normal speed and that is equivalent to a Shiratsuyu. The Swordfish is even slower and nimbler. Even some Icarus with 540 m turning circle is not going to turn tighter. And sure, halt your friggin DD. Make the perfect target. Sorry, but no. If you get outmaneuvered by a ship with some of the most agile planes in the game, that is on you, not the Swordfish. The Swordfish is slow, but the amount of agility for adjustments it has is simply stupid.

7 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Agreed. If you read again, note that I am specifically talking about the THIRD torp. 

You know, the one AR has and Furry simply has not. 

The one that always misses the DD... (because DD too short). 

Eh... well actually the DD is already dad if he eats tow but you get the point I hope. 

Just creates a bigger carpet then, making it harder to adjust, because a DD can choose which two torps it eats, instead of potentially dodging one and eating one. After another such drop, it's dead anyway.

9 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

I disagree on that one. Planes on AR are so slow, if a cruiser that knows how to play goes "full avoidance",

AKA full brake and turn, you'll never get that 3rd torp in. You might even miss the 2nd torp. Of course you'll ALWAYS hit one.

Also, the French BBs with speedboost can always avoid the 3rd. 

Any cruiser that can maneuver this much, you can cross-drop. And they wouldn't eat more torps from any other CV, so what is the point? Because a Furious drops the torps about as far away, with same speed. A Ryuujou drops it further away, with more speed. Reaction time overall is not too different, nor the amount of maneuvering you can do to dodge that.

And no, they can't, if you line it up properly. You only meet two of them anyway and both aren't exactly nimble, compared to your bombers. More speed does not change that.

11 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

See above. Show me a replay where you do not miss any torp at all. 

That is not even the point of debate. The point is whether a properly executed drop can be dodged. Dodging one out of three and eating two still is on par with most other CVs, especially with ones where you can dodge one out of two. Cross-drops obviously create misses per default, but would be something you use on other CVs as well against ships that maneuver hard. Lastly, it's not like I make no mistakes ever, but I actually recognise it as my mistakes, not as a shortcoming of the planes (which at times are so stupidly agile as to allow me to correct mistakes that should absolutely not be possible to correct).

17 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Bad plane speed indeed, but it cannot all be solved by "proper approach". 

They can see the planes coming from 10km. If the ship takes proper action I'll never get all torps in. 

Same goes for rockets, depending on the ship (can't miss a BB... or a cruiser with those).

HE bombs... well depending on RNG of sorts, but those usually do not miss either. 

So - as for proper approach, unless you mean "approach with mountain cover", that always works. 

9 km with CE. And you don't need to get ALL torps in. Pretty much no CV will always get all their ordnance in. But you need to hit often enough to make it count and that you can do very much.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Can I laugh? T8 Graf Zeppelin Me-155s already have a 590 m turning circle on normal speed and that is equivalent to a Shiratsuyu. The Swordfish is even slower and nimbler. Even some Icarus with 540 m turning circle is not going to turn tighter. And sure, halt your friggin DD. Make the perfect target. Sorry, but no. If you get outmaneuvered by a ship with some of the most agile planes in the game, that is on you, not the Swordfish. The Swordfish is slow, but the amount of agility for adjustments it has is simply stupid.

Still, somehow I can't outturn the DD, if that DD is kinda savvy. Dunno why. I use brake and steering (S+A/D), it's not like I only use mouse.

If he spots you (and he will, no matter 9km or 10km), he can take measures. He has 1.5x more time than when it is Furious.

Of course he will not escape the HE-bombs. But rockets, about 60% he can "evade" if RNGesus does not decide to help. 

Planes simply cannot slow down that much, and a DD has a chance to make them overshoot. 

 

1 hour ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Just creates a bigger carpet then, making it harder to adjust, because a DD can choose which two torps it eats, instead of potentially dodging one and eating one. After another such drop, it's dead anyway.

Eh. Granted a DD that eats torps is stupid, and if he eats two he is dead.

What I mean is that you cannot get those 3 torps from one drop in a DD, it is too small. 

And because your planes are slower, the Furious can kill more DDs than the AR.

 

1 hour ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Any cruiser that can maneuver this much, you can cross-drop. And they wouldn't eat more torps from any other CV, so what is the point? Because a Furious drops the torps about as far away, with same speed. A Ryuujou drops it further away, with more speed. Reaction time overall is not too different, nor the amount of maneuvering you can do to dodge that.

Cross-drop a cruiser yes. BB sure. But not a DD. I sure as hell can't do it, and I did it LOTS of times at T4. T6? Nope. 

And the point is they WILL HAVE TO eat more torps from Ark Royal, if AR has to keep up score.

Because all other CVs have faster planes, it takes them shorter to attack again. 

 

1 hour ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

And no, they can't, if you line it up properly. You only meet two of them anyway and both aren't exactly nimble, compared to your bombers. More speed does not change that.

Maybe you misunderstand. I'm talking about the French BBs with speedboost. 

Say they are next to an island, but the distance between island and ship is too short for torps to arm. 

You have to drop them from the other (broad)side. If you drop 'em good, all three will hit, in theory.

BUT he will always avoid the third one because he can move FWD/RWD "quite quickly". 

 

1 hour ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

That is not even the point of debate. The point is whether a properly executed drop can be dodged. Dodging one out of three and eating two still is on par with most other CVs, especially with ones where you can dodge one out of two.

Well, it IS the point of debate. You somehow have to make good on the slow speed. 

If you are not good, that is very hard to do. So even if the ship dodges one, and you still hit two, you  are still NOT on par with other CVs. 

Granted if you know how to do it, but most players have no clue. 

 

1 hour ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Cross-drops obviously create misses per default, but would be something you use on other CVs as well against ships that maneuver hard.

=In my experience you can't use cross-drops on other T6 CVs. One drop, that's it. How do you manage? 

I tried and best I got was ONE torp dropped for the second (cross) run. 

I can do it on most BBs no problem. Sometimes they eat all six torps... and one or two more.

 

1 hour ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

Lastly, it's not like I make no mistakes ever, but I actually recognise it as my mistakes, not as a shortcoming of the planes (which at times are so stupidly agile as to allow me to correct mistakes that should absolutely not be possible to correct).

So, if the ship moves like a nutter, "you don't line up properly"???  The planes are agile enough - indeed you can correct.

But you cannot correct it when you attack from the side, and then the ship turns away. He'll eat ONE torp. 

Never happens with Furious - he simply has too little time to react. Some ships the torps hit him before he has even turned 1 degree. 

Rudder shifting time is important here, when you are playing AR. 

 

1 hour ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

9 km with CE. And you don't need to get ALL torps in. Pretty much no CV will always get all their ordnance in. But you need to hit often enough to make it count and that you can do very much.

Yeah, haven't got a 19pointer on AR yet so it's 10 for me. But I can get ALL torps in with Furious. TWO every time. No problem. 

I CANNOT get all torps in with Ark Royal (trying though, 45 degrees from rear works best). So, sometimes I get three. Mostly two. Sometimes ONE.

Reason is not "I am not lining them up perfectly". Reason is ships actually have some chance to avoid - they see my slow planes diving, leaves them more time.

In Furious, or Ryujo, you're on them before they know it (or faster than rudder shift).

 

So, because of the slow planes, you have fewer attacks than other CVs. 

So you will have to hit harder, which is not that simple to the average player. 

[CptBarney]

 

@BLUB__BLUB

@Sleepy_Bunny

 

Think you ladz need to calm down nowah.

[Rionnen_marksman]

26 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

 

 

Cross-drop a cruiser yes. BB sure. But not a DD. I sure as hell can't do it, and I did it LOTS of times at T4. T6? Nope. 

Approach from behind, trap him between your torps, he has 2 choices, stop to turn, or keep going and wait for them to pass, either one presents an easy target after

[Bear__Necessities]

22 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

Approach from behind, trap him between your torps, he has 2 choices, stop to turn, or keep going and wait for them to pass, either one presents an easy target after

It’s even more delicious if you wait and see if you can then force him to move due to the chance of being broadside to a BB. In fact the amount of times I’ve made a cruiser turn to show a BB broadside and get spanked makes me laugh. You didn’t kill but might as well have. Saves a payload and onto the next poor target.

[CptBarney]

 

This aged well lol.

 

The same guy even thinks some questionable event from gaijin will be good, yeah no.

 

Good thing im not interested in miss puetro rico.

[Gvozdika]

21 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

 

This aged well lol.

 

The same guy even thinks some questionable event from gaijin will be good, yeah no.

 

Good thing im not interested in miss puetro rico.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. That CC in particular is about half a planetary orbit behind the curve on most things anyway.

 

The only takeaway I get is that as a result of the rework and the way it was ramrodded into the game - players aren't so charitable or willing to give the benefit of the doubt when it comes to any other new introductions *cough* subs *cough*. 

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, CptBarney said:

 

@BLUB__BLUB

@Sleepy_Bunny

 

Think you ladz need to calm down nowah.

Hold on dude! Seriously.

I might learn why I can't cross-drop a DD or get the second load on the enemy CV.

 

[CptBarney]

12 minutes ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Hold on dude! Seriously.

I might learn why I can't cross-drop a DD or get the second load on the enemy CV.

 

Think hes gone to sleep anyways lol.

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

Approach from behind, trap him between your torps, he has 2 choices, stop to turn, or keep going and wait for them to pass, either one presents an easy target after

Yeah but that's not really a crossdrop. Still funny though. 

I could do it with the Hermes, drop a torp behind the DD, he turns, and eats the one that I dropped in the meanwhile. 

Got them all the time. I hear they get two torps now. Gotta try this... feeling a bit dirty afterwards, probably. 

 

38 minutes ago, Bear_Necessities said:

It’s even more delicious if you wait and see if you can then force him to move due to the chance of being broadside to a BB. In fact the amount of times I’ve made a cruiser turn to show a BB broadside and get spanked makes me laugh. You didn’t kill but might as well have. Saves a payload and onto the next poor target.

I did that with a clanmate, me in Midway him in Currywurst. Man IT WAS FILTHY....

He got seven kills...  

 

8 minutes ago, Gvozdika said:

The only takeaway I get is that as a result of the rework and the way it was ramrodded into the game. 

How about the HMS Ramrod for X-mas, then. I'd say old chap,  brilliant idea. 

[El2aZeR]

9 hours ago, MrBourpif said:

I'm not talking about average, but about Alpha. CV Alpha is really bad and result is Cv class suffers more on short games.

 

Unless you have terrible target selection abilities, no you don't.

And CV alpha isn't bad. It's actually outstanding when you consider that it has a fairly short reload and no counterplay options whatsoever. This allows reworked CVs to deal equal or more damage compared to RTS CVs in the same timeframe while granting them unparalleled flexibility.

 

8 hours ago, MrBourpif said:

If they are better CV players than me it proves my point, they are not representative to give their feeling. OP ship is OP even with average players. Not the case with CVs

 

If your laughable narrative were true then no ship in this game would be overpowered as the average player fails in every ship or class.

Therefore the results the average player produces are entirely irrelevant.

[HaachamaShipping]

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Still, somehow I can't outturn the DD, if that DD is kinda savvy. Dunno why. I use brake and steering (S+A/D), it's not like I only use mouse.

If he spots you (and he will, no matter 9km or 10km), he can take measures. He has 1.5x more time than when it is Furious.

Of course he will not escape the HE-bombs. But rockets, about 60% he can "evade" if RNGesus does not decide to help. 

Planes simply cannot slow down that much, and a DD has a chance to make them overshoot. 

That's a load of BS. Furious planes go 24 knots faster, which translates not in 1.5 times the time for AR. On the rocket planes the speed difference even is just 4 knots.

And sure, he can turn and run or do whatever, but short of smoking up (which he can always do), it's not like there's a way to not get caught by the planes, even if they run. And given the amount of sensible counters there exist, doesn't matter when they get caught. Heck, worse still is that unless you catch them bow-on, pretty much all plane types on AR can attack without overshooting and head-on, at the very least the bombs can. Furious does not have such bombs and everyone else does not have this ability to react.

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Eh. Granted a DD that eats torps is stupid, and if he eats two he is dead.

What I mean is that you cannot get those 3 torps from one drop in a DD, it is too small. 

And because your planes are slower, the Furious can kill more DDs than the AR.

If you drop 3 torps, you still make it harder to dodge them. It is easier to line up a drop where at least two hit with 3 torps than with just two. And no, AR is the better DD hunter, given torps are not a prime anti-DD weapon, bombs are. At least on AR. Furious bombs have a hard time competing in that role.

 

Also, three torps obviously is better for combing smokes.

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Cross-drop a cruiser yes. BB sure. But not a DD. I sure as hell can't do it, and I did it LOTS of times at T4. T6? Nope. 

And the point is they WILL HAVE TO eat more torps from Ark Royal, if AR has to keep up score.

Because all other CVs have faster planes, it takes them shorter to attack again. 

Did it a few times, it is not too hard.

And sure you can make it up. You just hit them with enough waves. A Swordfish attack is not exactly easier to dodge than a Barracuda attack when properly executed and if you do a crossdrop, the follow up drop for assured hits on AR carries three torps as well, not just two.

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Maybe you misunderstand. I'm talking about the French BBs with speedboost. 

Say they are next to an island, but the distance between island and ship is too short for torps to arm. 

You have to drop them from the other (broad)side. If you drop 'em good, all three will hit, in theory.

BUT he will always avoid the third one because he can move FWD/RWD "quite quickly". 

Apart from how comically short the arming distance is where they need to be almost beached on that island, T8 French BBs (the lower tiers don't get any boost) are so large, if you cannot hit 3 on a ship that is stationary that is not really a Swordfish issue. Because if they only react once you dropped, they won't dodge. If they react before, just adjust. The Swordfish is great at that.

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Well, it IS the point of debate. You somehow have to make good on the slow speed. 

If you are not good, that is very hard to do. So even if the ship dodges one, and you still hit two, you  are still NOT on par with other CVs. 

Granted if you know how to do it, but most players have no clue. 

If a ship maneuvers to the point it dodges one torp, you still connect two, where others connect 1. That makes the alpha discrepancy worse than the 3 to 2 ratio of dropped torps would suggest.

And if they don't maneuver to that point, then you need to learn to aim better to not throw the third torp away needlessly.

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

=In my experience you can't use cross-drops on other T6 CVs. One drop, that's it. How do you manage? 

I tried and best I got was ONE torp dropped for the second (cross) run. 

I can do it on most BBs no problem. Sometimes they eat all six torps... and one or two more.

Furious and Ark Royal have 3 attack flights per squadron. RJ and Ranger have 4 attack flights per squadron. I have no clue what you do with the other 2-3 flights or where they go. But usually, as long as you have two flights, you should be able to crossdrop. I've decided to play Ranger lately to get to Lexington and certainly, I have done it there too.

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

So, if the ship moves like a nutter, "you don't line up properly"???  The planes are agile enough - indeed you can correct.

But you cannot correct it when you attack from the side, and then the ship turns away. He'll eat ONE torp. 

Never happens with Furious - he simply has too little time to react. Some ships the torps hit him before he has even turned 1 degree. 

Rudder shifting time is important here, when you are playing AR. 

Both CVs use the exact same torpedo, except the Furious one on top planes has 47 m longer aiming time (which extents a bit with TA factored in for both). Thus, unless you use stock planes, Ark Royal actually gives you less reaction time once it drops. And if they shift their rudder before you drop... adjust! You are way more flexible than that rudder.

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Yeah, haven't got a 19pointer on AR yet so it's 10 for me. But I can get ALL torps in with Furious. TWO every time. No problem. 

I CANNOT get all torps in with Ark Royal (trying though, 45 degrees from rear works best). So, sometimes I get three. Mostly two. Sometimes ONE.

Reason is not "I am not lining them up perfectly". Reason is ships actually have some chance to avoid - they see my slow planes diving, leaves them more time.

In Furious, or Ryujo, you're on them before they know it (or faster than rudder shift).

 

So, because of the slow planes, you have fewer attacks than other CVs. 

So you will have to hit harder, which is not that simple to the average player. 

That's a player issue, not a ship issue.

 

So, can you stop trying to talk about counterplay to AR, which just does not exist? It really just does not. The AR is pretty much just "balanced" in that its planes are slow, so you have to see where you wreck others. But when it comes to attacking ships, this ship isn't magically "fairer" or anything. It's basically similar 0 counterplay BS as pretty much any other CV, it still has little trouble devastating the few ships it has destined should die and stuff like the carpet bomber are really just the epitome of the "Just Dodge" meme, because good luck ever dodging that when the AR player doesn't miscalculate. AR's balance basically exists like all CV balance, it just cannot reliably go higher in its damage average, because the time runs out, but in that time, well god have mercy on the poor sods you get your damage from, because the Swordfish have none.

[CptBarney]

Well i tried to stop the angrehs but they ignored me...

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Yorkie CV when?

[BLUB__BLUB]

38 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Well i tried to stop the angrehs but they ignored me...

You are right mate, when somebody thinks they can go on "executed properly" and so on, even though I'm asking them how then, and that's all they rant - 

aaaand If they do not manage more/better than me, AKA being "properly executed" potato, and you behave like such a stuck-up [edited], then that's that.

... and well... then it is not any worthwhile advice or discussion, and best to put them where they belong. So, that is #2 gone in the ignore box, ka-poowwww! 

 

I'd rather take a spanking from Masterrr @El2aZeR who is at least clear about what to do and what NOT to do. He could explain a bit better though.... 

 

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Unless you have terrible target selection abilities, no you don't.

And CV alpha isn't bad. It's actually outstanding when you consider that it has a fairly short reload and no counterplay options whatsoever. This allows reworked CVs to deal equal or more damage compared to RTS CVs in the same timeframe while granting them unparalleled flexibility.

@MrBourpif he is correct. SEE: Even without fires (never get much, because afore explained reasons) or floodings (same) I still manage to do better than the BBs.

If I am top of the list in game, a T6CV, and there's also T7 and T8 BBs around... then who has done better? 

Also, I am clearly making more damage in a T6 CV than in any of my T6 BBs. Even the ones I really like (notice 200 games in Arizona...).

 

But... I dunno if you know about RTS-CVs. But they had a certain limit of planes. Once all were gone, that was it.

He got no more, AKA "de-planed" and then what he was: planeless XP-pinata. That will NOT happen now. 

 

Also... note that in Ryujo I have 25% better average... and I have just started playing that one.

Have a look at my stats, https://wows-numbers.com/player/552033702,BLUB__BLUB/

I am just as much potato as you. I'm trying to become better, if you want too, listen to Mastterrr El2azer, he has GREAT tips.

Before, I did 45-50K. Now usually more like 80-100 if the game isn't a 5 minute ROFLSTOMP. But...still much to learn.  

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

When can we expect a restoration of the fire duration?

[BLUB__BLUB]

58 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

When can we expect a restoration of the fire duration?

Like, when will WG give CV-player the option to use DCP or let one fire burn, et cetera?

Never. Working as intended, spreadsheet says you have fun. Now go to gulag...  

[DrMechano]

So, according to pretty much all the data we, as players, have access to we can conclude the following points.

 

Shortening the skill gap:

Failed...good CV players will still outpreform bad CV players by a country mile.

 

Increasing CV player numbers:

Partially failed. After the big spike back when the Rework was introduced the numbers are now down to a very small fraction of what they were once again but more than pre rework CV levels.

 

CV balancing:

Failed. While a CV can nolonger just instantly delete ships in a single salvo they're still a poorly balanced mess with Tier 4 CVs being ridiculous, tiers 6 and 8 ranging from godlike to mildly annoying if they're top tier or bottom tier and AA (which I will include in here as part of the CV rework) has been reduced from 'You can't attack a minotaur EVER unless you want to lose all your planes for a single strike' to 'at least one strike will get through no matter what and if the CV player is smart, they can avoid large chunks of damage'. This has also nullified some key features of certain ships being their AA. The QE, for example, was the best tier 6 BB with regards AA and, with an AA spec, could fend off even tier 8 carriers. Now the QE is a shadow of her former self and barely tickles those same tier 8 CVs.

 

So...pretty much the big three things the rework was meant to address have failed miserably, not only that but we had nearly a year of constant CV balancing and reworking on live servers which has caused the CV hate to rise from 'they're very annoying but very rare and have counter build options' to 'I hate them and I definitely want to see them removed from the game' (to be fair those always existed but nowhere near as much as we see now).

 

Unfortunately we're at the stage of no return. It will take YEARS for Wargaming to go back and rework CVs again because that is openly admitting failure. As much as I hate comparing Arty in WoT to CVs in WoWs they both suffer from the same problem. The majority of the playerbase dislike or are indifferent to their existence. Because of EU and I'm assuming US laws they cannot simply remove them from the game since that would require actual cash refunds on Premium carriers, something WG is NEVER going to do because that would mean they lose out on sweet money. So we're stuck here, suffering arty and CVs that neither side seems to be happy with and now they're thinking of adding in Subs to the game...which has got the playerbase beginning to wonder just what it is that WG are smoking since they can't manage to balance all the classes they have in the game currently, let alone adding in another one.

[HaachamaShipping]

3 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

aaaand If they do not manage more/better than me, AKA being "properly executed" potato, and you behave like such a stuck-up [edited], then that's that.

Sorry, but even without being some next level CV unicum, I very much do perform better in Ark Royal than you, so there has to be something that is being done right and which actually works. Whether you take guesses as to what that might be or put me on ignore is your decision, but it'd still be nice if you wouldn't go around telling people that the planes have trouble hitting when others certainly have no such issues. It's insincere towards third parties reading this and thinking that they don't have to mind as much when the Swordfish arrive because there might be actual "counterplay".

[Sunleader]

I dont like the Ark Royal.

Its a Pretty Bad CV in my Eyes.

 

Of course its Damage Output per Squadron is Pretty Big. And its Planes are also Pretty Tanky.

But the Slow Speed of them just Kills me.

Its just robbing me of Too much Influence in the Battle.

 

I tend to Work Fast. Changing Targets depending on the Battle Situation.

Doing more of a Harassing Job than a Killing Job.

 

So the Ark Royal is just Completely Outside my Playstyle and I am just Horrible at using it xD

 

 

The one Point I really Bring against the Ark Royal is Ultimately the Speed Difference.

Many Squadrons are 15% Faster for the other T6 CVs.

Which means your getting this much more Attacks out during a Match.

 

Now I am Actually not very good on the Furious either. Because just like the Ark Royal. Its not really my Playstyle.

But In Direct Comparisson I would still take the Furious over the Ark Royal.

(Of Course. In my Case due to me being a much more Aggressive Player with CVs. I will take the Ryujo above either of them any Day. But thats a different Story)

 

1.

The Ark Royal Clearly has the Better Reserves. Allowing it to Stay in Battle way Longer.

(Which is an Fairly Unique Trait on British CVs cause the Main Line tends to be Short on Planes rather Fast)

But the Furious is way Faster in Average with its Planes and has an Vast Advantage on Reaching the Importand Bits of the Battle.

 

2.

Now on Assault Planes the Furious and Ark Royal are Actually Equal.

Both have pretty much the same Damage. But thanks to the 2 Planes the Furious has a Slightly better Spread on the Rockets.

The Ark Royals Squad is more Sturdy tough.

 

3.

But on Torpedo Planes the Picture Changes. Because here the Furious becomes very Slightly Superior Actually.

The Furious is about 15% Faster. With Boost. And 20% Faster without Boost. Allowing it to Reach Targets Faster and Run more Attacks.

The Ark Royal does much more Damage with one Squadron as it Throws 3 Torpedoes instead of 2 while doing the same Damage per Torpedo.

But Due to the Slow Speed of the Torpedobombers they tend to be more Prone to Losses. And they also tend to give the Enemy Ship more Time to Position itself.

 

This might not seem like such a Big Difference. But its actually Quite Importand. Because if the Enemy Ship can Turn its Rear or Bow Towards you before you Drop the Torpedoes. It becomes much Harder to Hit it.

You can of course still Crossdrop. But the Furious can effectively Land 2 Full Hits while the Ark Royal will Likely Lose 1 Strike to Force the Enemy into a Lane of Attack.

Thanks to that. Out of the 2 Drops you should be able to do with both CVs.

The Ark Royal can have much Higher Damage. But can also end up with Lower Damage.

Because due to the Low Speed if the Enemy Managed to Position itself. Reliably against a Halfwat Competent Enemy.

The Ark Royal will Connect maybe 1 Torpedo in the First Drop Forcing the Enemy the Lane. And max 3 on the Crossdrop Afterwards.

The Furious however meanwhile will maybe Connect both Torpedoes on the First Drop. And has a Good Chance to Connect Both Torpedoes on the Second Drop as well.

 

As both end up with Roughly the same Damage. The Furious Wins out. Because its Faster and thus Achieved this in less Time.

 

The Furious also has the Advantage of being at the Target Faster and thus having more Chances to Hit Targets that are in Bad Position.

The Ark Royal does however come with the Advantage of being better for Abusing Bad Positions of Enemies under Pressure.

As it can Hit 6 Torps when the Enemy cant Turn due to giving Broadside to an Enemy BB for example.

So this Levels out.

 

Finally Furious is better for Cruisers as the Faster Planes dont allow the Cruiser to Improve its Position too much before the Drop.

While the Ark Royal with its Higher Damage against BBs will Win out there.

 

Hence the Furious is only better in that one Part we talked about first.

And even there just Slightly.

 

4.

The Big Game Changers however are the Bomber Aircraft.

The Difference here is Insanely Simple.

Not only are the Furious Bombers Faster.

But the Ark Royals Bombs have Pitiful Penetration Power and are just not Usable against too many Ships.

Where the Furious Bombers will often Deal 2-6k Damage even against Battleships with the Bonus of a Pretty good Fire Chance.

The Bombers of the Ark Royal are going to Deal Extremely Low Direct Damage. Often not even 2k to Battleships. And Partially not even to Cruisers.

Thus having to Rely Entirely on Setting a Fire.

 

Thanks to that. The Furious has a Second Capable Attack Squadron which gives it an Comfortable Advantage over the Ark Royal which can barely use its Bombers Decently against anything but Destroyers and Light Cruisers.

 

 

 

 

[Sunleader]

3 hours ago, DrMechano said:

 

 

Shortening the skill gap:

Failed...good CV players will still outpreform bad CV players by a country mile.

 

Increasing CV player numbers:

Partially failed. After the big spike back when the Rework was introduced the numbers are now down to a very small fraction of what they were once again but more than pre rework CV levels.

 

 

These 2 are Actually the ones Relevant xD

 

The Joke is. Wargaming Defeated Themselves here Gloriously.

 

In RTS the Problem was. That CVs were so Incredible Powerful that a Good Player could make or break a Team.

Thanks to that. CVs tended to be Extremely Hard to Play. Because if you were less Skilled than your Opponent. You just would not have much Fun in that Match.

So you end up with the Average and Bad CV Players just being Losing Constantly. Not having Fun and thus not Playing that Class even tough its Overpowered.

 

WG likely assumed if they just take away the Option of Fighters Blocking the Enemy CV entirely. They would have Fixed this Issue.

But taking away the Fighters also meant that the CVs were now Ridiculously Overpowered just Massacring Everything.

This did Bring Players of course. But also lost them massive amounts of Players on other Classes.

 

Hence WG Tuned down the Damage Massively.

So that despite not being Blocked by the Enemy CV the CV could not do so much Damage anymore.

However. This effectively Returned them back to the very Same Problem they had in RTS.

Because CVs are Still extremely Influental. But now the CV Player needs a very Good Understanding of the Situation of the Battle.

Meaning that we are back to the same Problem again.

Average and Bad CV Players just keep Losing Constantly. Dont have Fun and thus they dont Play that Class even tough its Overpowered.

 

 

 

[CptBarney]

@Sunleader Ark royal is solid from what i've seen the slow planes aren't a problem at all unless you dont spec into concealment for your hull for whatever strange reason (this providing you have access to a 15pt captain and above if not, dun worreh fam).

 

If you can do well with slow planes at tier 4, ark royal should be fine. The only problem are the bombers, but if they had 32mm's of pen or even 30 or 27 they would stupidly OP since they act like a dive/level bomber hybrid which would allow you to just spank anything you come across.

 

Also with that new commander do you think germany will get its CV's at last?

[Sunleader]

20 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

 

 

Also with that new commander do you think germany will get its CV's at last?

 

Unlikely.

The German CV Line is more Paper than Steel. So I have little hope of ever getting it.

 

I am Impressed the New Commander was not a Submarine Commander.

That would have been the Logical Step somehow given they also want to get Subs out.

 

 

Has there been any Word on the Commander Coming out Yet ?

I even Forget the Name Actually.

 

(Sorry. Lately I am Pretty Frustrated with this Game. So I have really not kept Up to Date)

[CptBarney]

38 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Unlikely.

The German CV Line is more Paper than Steel. So I have little hope of ever getting it.

 

I am Impressed the New Commander was not a Submarine Commander.

That would have been the Logical Step somehow given they also want to get Subs out.

 

 

Has there been any Word on the Commander Coming out Yet ?

I even Forget the Name Actually.

Eh, they wills till add them in probably, i mean the french bb and russian bb lines are pretty much design based in general.

 

Makes no sense to release a sub commander when they havent released subs yet (jus saying not being mean or anything 'w')

 

I have no clue his name is gunther l-something comes out patch 8.11 i think.

 

Quote

 

(Sorry. Lately I am Pretty Frustrated with this Game. So I have really not kept Up to Date)

Aren't we all lol. Most games like these are enough to drive people mental.

 

Considering i have almost 3k games all of which are solo.