CV Rework Discussion

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

1. It does matter when you’re not talking about damage, you’re talking about plane losses.

 

Since you take fewer losses as well the damage to loss ratio is skewed in favor of reworked CVs regardless.

 

2 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

2. Yes, they should wait longer... many didn’t though. 

 

Many players also try to use radar on smokes outside of their radar range. So what?

Never has something been designed under the assumption that the user is too incompetent to use it.

 

4 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

3. Are you sure that server wide stats on post rework cv’s are roughly the same as pre rework? (Not looked it up myself)

 

Better question: Why do server wide stats matter?

We already have proof that reworked CVs are at least as powerful as pre-rework. Any difference in average stats is therefore entirely down to the (in-)competence of the playerbase and not an indicator of how powerful reworked CVs are.

And the great majority of reworked CV players are shockingly incompetent.

[BLUB__BLUB]

29 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And the great majority of reworked CV players are shockingly incompetent.

Agreed. I outplay most of them and I am just potato in sort of everything. 

 

But oh master, the same potato problem exists in most ships... 

We will never solve the potato problem, in fact it is worse than ever. 

 

[Lootboxer]

4 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

Agreed. I outplay most of them and I am just potato in sort of everything. 

 

But oh master, the same potato problem exists in most ships... 

We will never solve the potato problem, in fact it is worse than ever. 

 

It's even worse when potato is sailing OP ship of OP class vs semi competent enemy in the same ship. Fortunately most badly.

All they archive is to up the game for a few poor souls, usually those trying to play objectives or do something useful in small ships with short range, unreliable armament and weakest AA in a game.

[Sunleader]

11 hours ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

I understand what you’re saying, however I disagree, if I fly my Kaga squadron over a t8 (or even t7) AA  cruiser, I am GOING to take losses no matter what I do. Yes, I don’t take as many losses as I used to pre rework, but I also do much less damage per time.

 

sure, I can come back again and again, that’s the problem. 

 

Imo, rebalancing needs to happen, I think that they should remove AA mounts from the list of modules that can be incapacitated.

 

 

EDIT:

 

i also think that only torp bombers should be able to spot, the other two shouldn’t be able to spot, that would reduce the impact of CV’s considerably. 

 

Though also for the sake of balance, I think cv torp speed should be increased across the board by 5kt OR flood chance increased considerably (due to the change in flood mechanics)

 

Mate...

With Kaga you dont care about losses.....

You just keep Bombing....

 

 

As for the Suggestions.

Sure why not.

I mean I am already mopping the Floor with T10 BBs in my T8 CVs.

So why not make it even easier by just Guaranteeing me the Flooding on both Drops.

 

After all. Right now I usually start the Battle with just 20k Damage usually. Cause only 1 of the 2 Drops I do to whatever Poor Sould crossed my Scouting Run will cause a Flooding and thus usually they can Repair it.

 

Higher Flooding Chance means much better chance forme to do 40k Damage in the First 3 Minutes rather than 20k.

 

 

And Clearly CVs arent OP enough yet.

Them taking out a Ship before the Battle has even properly Started is not yet Guaranteed.

But why make it so complicated like increasing Floodchance ?

 

Some Noob CVs dont know how to wait after a Flood and Drop after DC Finished.

So they will likely not be able to take out the Enemy properly.

How about we just give CVs a Tactical Nuke Squadron instead.

Drop Kills all Enemies in a 10km radius.

 

 

Oh and to satisfy the Whiners we should also add the *Nuked* Badge for anyone being hit.

So they cant complain about it.

 

 

Its Perfect. And since then you really dont need any Skill whatsoever anymore.

I am also sure we can get 5% CV Players soon.

 

 

 

Oh.

I forgot.

Of course we need to make sure that the CV is Immune to Nukes so the CV cant be Sniped by the Enemy CV.

 

Would mot be Fun for the CV otherwise right.

 

 

 

 

[Rionnen_marksman]

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Mate...

With Kaga you dont care about losses.....

You just keep Bombing....

 

 

As for the Suggestions.

Sure why not.

I mean I am already mopping the Floor with T10 BBs in my T8 CVs.

So why not make it even easier by just Guaranteeing me the Flooding on both Drops.

 

After all. Right now I usually start the Battle with just 20k Damage usually. Cause only 1 of the 2 Drops I do to whatever Poor Sould crossed my Scouting Run will cause a Flooding and thus usually they can Repair it.

 

Higher Flooding Chance means much better chance forme to do 40k Damage in the First 3 Minutes rather than 20k.

 

 

And Clearly CVs arent OP enough yet.

Them taking out a Ship before the Battle has even properly Started is not yet Guaranteed.

But why make it so complicated like increasing Floodchance ?

 

Some Noob CVs dont know how to wait after a Flood and Drop after DC Finished.

So they will likely not be able to take out the Enemy properly.

How about we just give CVs a Tactical Nuke Squadron instead.

Drop Kills all Enemies in a 10km radius.

 

 

Oh and to satisfy the Whiners we should also add the *Nuked* Badge for anyone being hit.

So they cant complain about it.

 

 

Its Perfect. And since then you really dont need any Skill whatsoever anymore.

I am also sure we can get 5% CV Players soon.

 

 

 

Oh.

I forgot.

Of course we need to make sure that the CV is Immune to Nukes so the CV cant be Sniped by the Enemy CV.

 

Would mot be Fun for the CV otherwise right.

 

 

 

 

Seems the illustrious title of weekend tester doesn’t remove the temptation to be a total moron to someone who’s trying to help? 

 

Gj mate, good job. 

 

I’m sorry, but as you seem to want to hide your stats, (I don’t think anyone should be able to hide them) I’m sure you’ll forgive me for ignoring you as a pompous, self righteous [edited]. (You probably won’t though, judging by the post above) 

 

for what hat it’s worth.

 

EDIT- Apologies, you didn’t say “you take no losses” you said that it’s a waste of time and that you don’t bother. You did however Underplay plane losses due to AA (especially if you’re not bothering to dodge flak)

 

1. Keep flying like that with a kaga (not caring about AA) and you’re gonna run out of planes, or have to use the useless rockets.

2. I have the Kaga, I KNOW that you take losses in it because the planes are flimsier than a paper straw.

3. The regen rate does not overcome the rate of losses if you just fly straight through AA. 

4. Lets remember that it was YOU that stated you don’t care about AA. Flak is part of AA, I would LOVE to see you fly through flak bursts and not take losses in a Kaga. 

5. My suggestions were based on my experiences, I’ve hit 16 torps before getting a flood, and don’t forget flood mechanics were changed not too long ago.

[CptBarney]

It's a shame that flooding mechanics were changed along with rates of flooding.

 

It means torpedoes aren't as deadly as they could be but eh, thats my one man opinion weegee will listen to huge silent majority that seldomly comes onto the forums and engages in constructive critism.

 

Oh well.

[rnat]

1 hour ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

4. Lets remember that it was YOU that stated you don’t care about AA. Flak is part of AA, I would LOVE to see you fly through flak bursts and not take losses in a Kaga. 

You are aware that Flak is mostly dodge-able (i hear entirely dodge-able for the actually good CV-players but >90% is good enough for me) ?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he doesn't care about AA because he dodges Flak and ever since 8.7 continuous dps is very lacking,

rather than doesn't care => fly straight through the bursts like an imbecile.

 

Given that even I am usually able to field full squadrons (some or all) when uptiered in the Ryujo I'd hazard a guess that the Kaga doesn't have any big problems with plane-management against T8-9. (Haven't played mine since i got it this anniversary, so i haven't got any feeling for her myself)

[Rionnen_marksman]

1 minute ago, rnat said:

You are aware that Flak is mostly dodge-able (i hear entirely dodge-able for the actually good CV-players but >90% is good enough for me) ?

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he doesn't care about AA because he dodges Flak and ever since 8.7 continuous dps is very lacking,

rather than doesn't care => fly straight through the bursts like an imbecile.

 

Given that even I am usually able to field full squadrons (some or all) when uptiered in the Ryujo I'd hazard a guess that the Kaga doesn't have any big problems with plane-management against T8-9. (Haven't played mine since i got it this anniversary, so i haven't got any feeling for her myself)

Depends on whether the flak is in the same place as the puffs.

 

either way, not even @El2aZeR can do drops without taking losses, sometimes multiple losses (see his last YouTube vid vs the Bismarck... even in his enterprise he loses planes)

 

also... maybe so, maybe he does dodge it, I’m getting better at it and probably avoid about 80-90% of it, you still WILL take losses, my Edinburgh routinely takes 5-6 planes per pass out when a cv targets me.

 

so yes, CV’s are OP, but no, you still cannot IGNORE AA. You WILL take losses, sometimes significant. 

 

personally I think they should bring back DFAA panic mode. 

 

Bb’s shouldn’t be able to withstand constant cv attack, but imo all ‘light’ cruisers and all DD’s should have the option of DFAA. (Or bake it in to them all 30sec 50% DPS increase with a 200% accuracy nerf on a 90sec timer)

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 5 Stunden, Rionnen_marksman sagte:

be a total moron to someone who’s trying to help? 

 

Gj mate, good job. 

So that was necessary was it? 

 

Vor 5 Stunden, Rionnen_marksman sagte:

Keep flying like that with a kaga (not caring about AA) and you’re gonna run out of planes, or have to use the useless rockets.

Kaga rockets aren't useless. Ignoring AA doesn't mean he doesn't dodge flak. Kaga doesn't need to pay attention to AA at all as is there no need for any other carrier to do so either since AA is dead. 

 

Vor 5 Stunden, Rionnen_marksman sagte:

2. I have the Kaga, I KNOW that you take losses in it because the planes are flimsier than a paper straw.

3. The regen rate does not overcome the rate of losses if you just fly straight through AA.

Good for you being apparently so incompetent in Kaga that you lose planes so mindlessly that not even the Regen rate can keep up. Says a lot. 

 

Vor 5 Stunden, Rionnen_marksman sagte:

4. Lets remember that it was YOU that stated you don’t care about AA. Flak is part of AA, I would LOVE to see you fly through flak bursts and not take losses in a Kaga. 

Why should flak be included if its such an low effect part of AA anyway that can be evaded blindfolded? Flak could aswell not be there at all that's why noone includes it in their talk about AA. 

 

Vor 5 Stunden, Rionnen_marksman sagte:

5. My suggestions were based on my experiences, I’ve hit 16 torps before getting a flood, and don’t forget flood mechanics were changed not too long ago

Maybe aim more for bow and Stern then? Kaga flood chance is lower than other CVs for a reason. To get more floods aiming for bow and stern will net you a lot more. Probably is to hard to do I bet. 

 

Btw @Sunleader is doing pretty well in CV's. If you saw his stats you would be suprised. 

 

U would also start crying probably because he beats you by at least 20%

[Rionnen_marksman]

13 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

So that was necessary was it? 

 

Kaga rockets aren't useless. Ignoring AA doesn't mean he doesn't dodge flak. Kaga doesn't need to pay attention to AA at all as is there no need for any other carrier to do so either since AA is dead. 

 

Good for you being apparently so incompetent in Kaga that you lose planes so mindlessly that not even the Regen rate can keep up. Says a lot. 

 

Why should flak be included if its such an low effect part of AA anyway that can be evaded blindfolded? Flak could aswell not be there at all that's why noone includes it in their talk about AA. 

 

Maybe aim more for bow and Stern then? Kaga flood chance is lower than other CVs for a reason. To get more floods aiming for bow and stern will net you a lot more. Probably is to hard to do I bet. 

 

Btw @Sunleader is doing pretty well in CV's. If you saw his stats you would be suprised. 

 

U would also start crying probably because he beats you by at least 20%

Im quite sure @Sunleader can speak for his/herself. 

 

I don’t cry when someone is better than me. I try to learn, I am well aware I am not the best WoWs player (and don’t ever expect to be so) To address your points...

 

Yes, it was necessary(as well as justified and relevant to his/her behaviour), being a tester doesn’t give you the right to post how he did, he is as I am, a member of the community and to act how he was only makes him look bad and does injustice to his “weekend tester” title.

 

with the kaga spread of torps, no, it’s not difficult to do at all, and yes... I have done and continue to do this.. perhaps 50% of the time hitting bow/stern.

 

there is a vast difference between AA being ineffective at stopping strikes, and being “dead”. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

There is no difference. AA is dead. 

 

You are jealous about a forum title expecting people to represent those better? Oh my. 

 

Sunleader can speak for himself surely. Doesn't mean I can't come in and call you out however. 

 

You say you try to get better but clearly judging by your performance you are not really or are simply despite trying challenged. Considering how easy CV's are to play saying that you are trying but actually finishing with such a performance anyways is kind of telling that it might not be for you. 

 

Therefore I conclude that you simply lack the experience to even remotely challenge Sunleader on anything he says. 

[CptBarney]

Yay getting above 56% winrate in fatway!

 

although smoll damage numbers have dropped doe...

 

(three games with only dd’s and light cruisers and a few bb’s too farm doesnt help along with decent teammates breath in the enemies general direction and they die).

 

oh well.

 

will aim for 400 games with her.

[HaachamaShipping]

43 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Good for you being apparently so incompetent in Kaga that you lose planes so mindlessly that not even the Regen rate can keep up. Says a lot. 

tbf, Kaga regen is not very good for the quality of plane you get. It's the stupid amount of reserves that make it more than adequate to get through a match though.

[Capra76]

4 hours ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

either way, not even @El2aZeR can do drops without taking losses, sometimes multiple losses (see his last YouTube vid vs the Bismarck... even in his enterprise he loses planes)

 

What you need to consider is if those losses are meaningful, which is to say do they stop him contributing to the battle?

 

If the worst case scenario is that you lose enough of X type plane that you need to use Y type for one sortie until the former regenerates/recovers then clearly this has no material effect.

 

 

[Lootboxer]

37 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

There is no difference. AA is dead. 

 

You say you try to get better but clearly judging by your performance you are not really or are simply despite trying challenged. Considering how easy CV's are to play saying that you are trying but actually finishing with such a performance anyways is kind of telling that it might not be for you. 

 

 

Marksman, sorry mate but he is right. Reeworked CVs may not be for you. Or at least not yet for you. No offence. Anyway your poor performance does not mean that they are in any need of buffs.

I agree on panic effect with you, it was cool thing to have in a poor DD or CL. It even sometimes made BBs to stick to you for protection, now they do not care as BBs have best AA nowadays.

What reeeework needs is another rework in fact, as now even if CVs are considered OP they are quickly boring and how much fun can one take in ruining gameplay for the others, on the top totally neglecting value of concealment, AA built and skills?

[CptBarney]

23 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

tbf, Kaga regen is not very good for the quality of plane you get. It's the stupid amount of reserves that make it more than adequate to get through a match though.

Shame that we might not have miss akagi the werid fox yanderen (yuno still queen) in teh game.

 

seems like a combo of both, but im not surprised with how fragile her planes are too be honest.

[Sunleader]

7 hours ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

Seems the illustrious title of weekend tester doesn’t remove the temptation to be a total moron to someone who’s trying to help? 

 

Gj mate, good job. 

 

I’m sorry, but as you seem to want to hide your stats, (I don’t think anyone should be able to hide them) I’m sure you’ll forgive me for ignoring you as a pompous, self righteous [edited]. (You probably won’t though, judging by the post above) 

 

for what hat it’s worth.

 

EDIT- Apologies, you didn’t say “you take no losses” you said that it’s a waste of time and that you don’t bother. You did however Underplay plane losses due to AA (especially if you’re not bothering to dodge flak)

 

1. Keep flying like that with a kaga (not caring about AA) and you’re gonna run out of planes, or have to use the useless rockets.

2. I have the Kaga, I KNOW that you take losses in it because the planes are flimsier than a paper straw.

3. The regen rate does not overcome the rate of losses if you just fly straight through AA. 

4. Lets remember that it was YOU that stated you don’t care about AA. Flak is part of AA, I would LOVE to see you fly through flak bursts and not take losses in a Kaga. 

5. My suggestions were based on my experiences, I’ve hit 16 torps before getting a flood, and don’t forget flood mechanics were changed not too long ago.

 

Well Mate. If you say something that Shows you got no Idea then you get an Answer treating you like you got no Idea.

 

 

1.

I made my Stats Public in the Past when I had something to Provide Evidence for.

(Which by the way was that CVs are Overpowered. And that I certainly did given that during that Time I even made the Top 100 CV Players in the EU despite playing CVs for only about 1 Month...)

 

But by now CVs being Ridiculously Overpowered is a Fact so Clear and Obvious that I dont need to Prove it really.

So my Stats went back to Private how they have always been before.

 

But oh well.

Here is a Screen of my CV Stats.

Just so you know that when I tell you something you might want to listen.

 

 

 

2.

Mate. As Kaga you start with almost 3 Squads per Type. You can pretty much lose your entire Squadron each time you Fly and you will still Bomb 9 Targets.

Add another 3 to that thanks to Regeneration....

Sorry. But if you have Trouble Running out of Planes with Kaga. I really dont know what your Doing.

 

Also. *The Useless Rockets* are Mediocre but Decent. And as a way of Setting Fires before HE Bombing the Enemy for the Real Fires to be Set. They are Perfectly Fine.

They aint Enterprise Assaulters of Course. But they work.

But your main Staple thanks to the Fast Regeneration is actually your HE Bombers.

 

3.

Thats actually Bullcrab.

Kaga Planes are just Slightly more Vulnearble than Shokaku Planes.

But Kaga got more than enough to Spare in Comparisson.

 

4.

Flak Burst Deals 3.5% Damage to the Squadron. Kagas Plane being Weaker is Irrelevant cause its a Percentage.......

But in the First Place. Kaga always takes losses even without Flak Burst.

You just dont Care.

You got more than enough Spare Planes....

 

5.

Yeah. Thats Nice and Dandy. But no Offense to you. But 16 Torps with Kaga means you made 4 Successful Drops with 2 Squadrons.

Kaga Torps are Weak. But in Exchange you got 4 of them each Drop and 12 of them with each Squadron.

Moreover you got 2 more Squads setting Dots.

So 1 Flood means you can set a Fire next.

 

But hey who am I talking to.

I am sure an Kaga Expert like you already knows perfectly well how to Play it.

 

 

 

 

[CptBarney]

@Sunleader surprised you havent played miss midway yet.

 

also not enuff games in miss hosho mandatory 50 games or ill get sleepy caggi chan to eat dem pancakes again.

[Yedwy]

2 hours ago, CptBarney said:

Yay getting above 56% winrate in fatway!

 

although smoll damage numbers have dropped doe...

 

(three games with only dd’s and light cruisers and a few bb’s too farm doesnt help along with decent teammates breath in the enemies general direction and they die).

 

oh well.

 

will aim for 400 games with her.

Well chasing DDs around will often mean less then 100k damage farmed but you will be top 5 xp and effectively will have carried the match by taking them out, all you need is one at least half clever DD your side to survive till the endgame and he can cap everything

[CptBarney]

4 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Well chasing DDs around will often mean less then 100k damage farmed but you will be top 5 xp and effectively will have carried the match by taking them out, all you need is one at least half clever DD your side to survive till the endgame and he can cap everything

Ye, but i have been getting a lot of cruiser heavy game recently with a lot of dd’s sooo, that means pretty low potential damage.

 

Coupled with a team that doesnt take pride in fart sniffing and glue smelling, means big no no to damage.

 

Not that i mind doe.

[Rionnen_marksman]

3 hours ago, Yoshanai said:

There is no difference. AA is dead. 

 

You are jealous about a forum title expecting people to represent those better? Oh my. 

 

Sunleader can speak for himself surely. Doesn't mean I can't come in and call you out however. 

 

You say you try to get better but clearly judging by your performance you are not really or are simply despite trying challenged. Considering how easy CV's are to play saying that you are trying but actually finishing with such a performance anyways is kind of telling that it might not be for you. 

 

Therefore I conclude that you simply lack the experience to even remotely challenge Sunleader on anything he says. 

My performance aside (which is improving... albeit not as fast as I would like)

 

no, expecting more from someone with a title which denotes experience and/or authority than what he did is not jealousy, it’s called reasonable expectations. Forums are a place for people to come for help, chat and I suppose make online ‘friends’, new people will not know what the different titles and colours mean and someone acting like that will put people off. This has nothing to do with who is a better player (I’m happy to admit that isn’t me, and would never claim it to be) it is about how forum behaviour is conducted and what is and isn’t acceptable.

 

also, challenging someone unknown to you with no reasonable way of finding out who he is (or how good he is) is perfectly fine.

 

EDIT: apologies, that was uncalled for.

[BLUB__BLUB]

15 hours ago, DariusJacek said:

It's even worse when potato is sailing OP ship of OP class vs semi competent enemy in the same ship. Fortunately most badly.

All they archive is to up the game for a few poor souls, usually those trying to play objectives or do something useful in small ships with short range, unreliable armament and weakest AA in a game.

That happens, but usually it is Ark Royal vs Ranger or something.

Or you get Graf Zepp vs Enterprise... and then Lord @El2aZeR in the Zep... who'd win? 

 

Happens also with other ships, you get unicum in Smolensk vs potato in Hindy... 

 

That problem is not really the CV... it is (lack of) skill/points dependent MM.

Though I agree... as the devil always craps on the biggest heap... probably you get the potato in the weaker ship.

WHich is indeed wayyyyy worse in a CV.

 

Could be lucky though, maybe your team has the potato CV, but all the enemy has is 11X Viribus Unitis... 

 

[BLUB__BLUB]

BTW oh masterrrr @El2aZeR look what I got... 

Spoiler

 

[El2aZeR]

8 hours ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

so yes, CV’s are OP, but no, you still cannot IGNORE AA. You WILL take losses, sometimes significant.

 

Except unless you  up badly all losses are entirely insignificant.

Ignoring AA isn't being able to attack targets without losses. That is impossible. Ignoring AA is not caring about the losses you take due to a combination of hilariously weak AA and humongous reserves.

[BLUB__BLUB]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Kagas Plane being Weaker is Irrelevant cause its a Percentage.......

...and so I learn something new! 

Some stuff make more sense now, too. 

 

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 Ignoring AA is not caring about the losses you take due to a combination of hilariously weak AA and humongous reserves.

AKA "calculated loss". How many planes would it cost to hit the Mino. 

Or hit that big fat Currywurst instead... Hmmm...