CV Rework Discussion

[siraiaw]

i have noticed that the graf zeppelin's bombs will be farther to the edges of the cirkle if you accelerate during the drop, while they will be further into the center if you take the drop as slow as possible, why is that?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 25 Minuten, siraiaw sagte:

i have noticed that the graf zeppelin's bombs will be farther to the edges of the cirkle if you accelerate during the drop, while they will be further into the center if you take the drop as slow as possible, why is that?

The bombs are accelerated the faster the planes move. So they travel forward after release because of the planes speed. 

If you slow down they do that much less and end up more in the middle. 

[siraiaw]

Just now, Yoshanai said:

The bombs are accelerated the faster the planes move. So they travel forward after release because of the planes speed. 

If you slow down they do that much less and end up more in the middle. 

so you are saying i have to sacrifice the only strength the graf zeppelin has to make a good bombing run?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, siraiaw sagte:

so you are saying i have to sacrifice the only strength the graf zeppelin has to make a good bombing run?

No, you simply aim accordingly with keeping your speed in mind. You go fast? Position the upper half of the circle where you want the bombs to hit. 

 

You go slow? Position the lower half where you want to hit. 

[siraiaw]

Just now, Yoshanai said:

No, you simply aim accordingly with keeping your speed in mind. You go fast? Position the upper half of the circle where you want the bombs to hit. 

 

You go slow? Position the lower half where you want to hit. 

but the graf zeppelins bombs are hitting to the left and right of the cirkle if you accelerate, not in the top of the cirkle

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 1 Minute, siraiaw sagte:

but the graf zeppelins bombs are hitting to the left and right of the cirkle if you accelerate, not in the top of the cirkle

That's just RNG

[siraiaw]

Just now, Yoshanai said:

That's just RNG

its not rng if it happens consistently, as in it happens pretty much every time

[1MajorKoenig]

8 minutes ago, siraiaw said:

but the graf zeppelins bombs are hitting to the left and right of the cirkle if you accelerate, not in the top of the cirkle

 

6 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

That's just RNG

 

5 minutes ago, siraiaw said:

its not rng if it happens consistently, as in it happens pretty much every time

 

They changed it so Bombs Fall mostly in the outer areas of the reticle. So in a way you are both correct 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 1 Minute, siraiaw sagte:

its not rng if it happens consistently, as in it happens pretty much every time

I don't know. You have more games than I have in Graf Pepelin so maybe you are right. 

 

In my experience the bombs usually behave as I described with a few odd drops. 

[siraiaw]

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

 

 

They changed it so Bombs Fall mostly in the outer areas of the reticle. So in a way you are both correct 

that's the weird thing, it hits in the inner area if you decelerate completely before and during the bombing run

[1MajorKoenig]

49 minutes ago, siraiaw said:

that's the weird thing, it hits in the inner area if you decelerate completely before and during the bombing run

 

Really? Need to test that in the training room 

[Yedwy]

4 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Really? Need to test that in the training room 

Its possible he is right, I wont bother though as GZ is so frustrating to play its just not worth the effort...

[Yosha_AtaIante]

 

[DeviousDave02]

27 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Really? Need to test that in the training room 

Just tried it, Polar training room against 3 tier 8 bots set to do nothing.

 

Slowing down AND dropping from a high altitude did seem to make the bombs fall closer together but didn't seem to have any effect on where they fell in the circle.

 

50% of the time it just made them both miss the target.

 

Dropping at lower altitude, speed seemed to have no effect.

 

80 bombs dropped - 53 bombs hit - 11 citadels

 

Citadel hits against tier 8 US and RU BB's seemed highly random and required RNG to have a bomb hit between the secondary batteries on the mid deck without hitting any superstructure or a gun emplacement.

 

RU BB 'could' be citadel struck from behind if a bomb hit the very, very edge of the deck next to the rear turret mantle however only managed this once.

 

God these AP bombers are c**p.

[Yedwy]

Exactly - the ship is  and not worth the bother apart from the occasionaly "snowflake" event, glad I got it for free

[Panocek]

18 hours ago, MrConway said:

CVs in the current state are mostly fine and should be OK once we figure out how to nerf @El2aZeR specifically

So the moment El2 gets nerfed Enty returns to the store?

[CptBarney]

1 minute ago, Panocek said:

So the moment El2 gets nerfed Enty returns to the store?

Read yoshis thread just above in this page.

[Sunleader]

On 11/4/2019 at 6:04 PM, Rionnen_marksman said:

“It does not matter anyway”

 

says guy with 20% WR in the Enterprise.

 

Well. I explained it Several Times before already.

The more Overpowered a Certain Class is. The more the entire Match depends on the Player Playing it in that Match being Good.

 

People tend to Forget this and think oh yeah since CVs are beyond Doubt Overpowered. If I get one I can Win all my Matches easily.

Thing is. MM puts one of these Overpowered CVs on both sides.

 

So while any Noob in a CV will still be able to Farm 50k Damage on some BB without any Effort or Skill.

Winner of the Match will be the Team who got the Better CV.

 

Thats why Bad CV Players will often end up with 20-30% Winrate on their CVs.

After all. They are effectively Driving a Ship so Overpowered that its worth 5-6 other Ships.

And the Enemy has a Ship just as Overpowered.

So if your CV is a Noob. And the Enemy CV is actually Good. Your basicly Playing 12 vs 18.....

 

 

22 hours ago, MrConway said:

 

It seems that even though we are on page 472, I still need to reiterate that CVs will not be removed. 

 

CVs in the current state are mostly fine and should be OK once we figure out how to nerf @El2aZeR specifically. 

 

Well. Maybe you could Stop Pretending CVs are Balanced and Start Working on them.

Maybe then People would not start calling for their Removal in the First Place.

 

As for Elazer. No Need. He and his Enterprise might be Strong. But I can Bombs Literally anyone with my CV and anyone with a CV can Bomb me.

Elazer will of course Frustrate 3-5 Players each Match which cant do anything about him. Where a Normal CV Players will only Frustrate 1 or 2 Poor Souls each Match which cant do anything about them.

But Ultimately Elazer still only Frustrates about the same amount of People as 2-3 Normal CV Players.

 

So its Great that you want to Nerf Elazer and thus have the 2000 CV Players only Frustrate 2000 other Players each Match instead of thanks to Elazer Frustrating 2004 other Players each Match.

But I am pretty sure you Realize that this wont Solve the Problem.

 

After the AA Rework. AA is Useless. As a CV Player mysels. I COMPLETELY IGNORE IT. Its so useless and irrelevant that paying attention to it costs me more time than just flying right through it.

And of course when I play other Ships. (As rarely as that happens by now thanks to CVs sucking all the Fun out of this Game) I also notice that even with AA Upgrades and even when Paying Attention to Always Reinforce the Sector when the

 

Enemy Aircraft come in. There is Literally no Difference to the amount of Attacks I take.

The Damage Burst is so incredible weak. That you need to do it 3 times to Kill 1 Aircraft from a Full 12 Plane Squadron.

And the the few Seconds of Reinforced AA is so Irrelevant that Testing with a Friend showed pretty clearly.

Using AA Reinforced Sector gives you roundabout 1 Extra Kill assuming the Enemy Carries out at least 2 Attack Runs with that Squadron.

And pls note. Thats assuming a Cruiser with at least Decent AA.

For Ships with Weak AA you wont even make a Difference unless your Striked 3 Times with the same Squadron. And even on Ships with very Strong AA the Difference barely grows to 2 Aircraft when your Attacked by the same Squadron Twice.

 

Not that it matters. Because the Number of Attacks is not Changed at all.

Entirely Regardless of using Sector Reinforcement or not.

The Enemy CV will be able to get the Exact Same Number of Drops on you with that Squadron.

 

 

 

Right now CVs are only one thing.

And that is Frustrating.

They are Incredible Stressful to Play. Because as a CV your the Major Deciding Factor of Winning or Losing the Match.

Meaning that barely anyone will Play High Tier CVs because the Potato Players thanks to that Incredible Influence they have of course constantly Lose as the Remaining Team cant Cover for them.

While being Targeted by a CV is Extremely Frustrating and Unrewarding because you cant do anything about it.

 

Great Way of making CVs the least Fun Experience in the Entire Game for both the CV Players and the Players Targeted by them.

[Rionnen_marksman]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

Well. I explained it Several Times before already.

The more Overpowered a Certain Class is. The more the entire Match depends on the Player Playing it in that Match being Good.

 

People tend to Forget this and think oh yeah since CVs are beyond Doubt Overpowered. If I get one I can Win all my Matches easily.

Thing is. MM puts one of these Overpowered CVs on both sides.

 

So while any Noob in a CV will still be able to Farm 50k Damage on some BB without any Effort or Skill.

Winner of the Match will be the Team who got the Better CV.

 

Thats why Bad CV Players will often end up with 20-30% Winrate on their CVs.

After all. They are effectively Driving a Ship so Overpowered that its worth 5-6 other Ships.

And the Enemy has a Ship just as Overpowered.

So if your CV is a Noob. And the Enemy CV is actually Good. Your basicly Playing 12 vs 18.....

 

 

 

Well. Maybe you could Stop Pretending CVs are Balanced and Start Working on them.

Maybe then People would not start calling for their Removal in the First Place.

 

As for Elazer. No Need. He and his Enterprise might be Strong. But I can Bombs Literally anyone with my CV and anyone with a CV can Bomb me.

Elazer will of course Frustrate 3-5 Players each Match which cant do anything about him. Where a Normal CV Players will only Frustrate 1 or 2 Poor Souls each Match which cant do anything about them.

But Ultimately Elazer still only Frustrates about the same amount of People as 2-3 Normal CV Players.

 

So its Great that you want to Nerf Elazer and thus have the 2000 CV Players only Frustrate 2000 other Players each Match instead of thanks to Elazer Frustrating 2004 other Players each Match.

But I am pretty sure you Realize that this wont Solve the Problem.

 

After the AA Rework. AA is Useless. As a CV Player mysels. I COMPLETELY IGNORE IT. Its so useless and irrelevant that paying attention to it costs me more time than just flying right through it.

And of course when I play other Ships. (As rarely as that happens by now thanks to CVs sucking all the Fun out of this Game) I also notice that even with AA Upgrades and even when Paying Attention to Always Reinforce the Sector when the

 

Enemy Aircraft come in. There is Literally no Difference to the amount of Attacks I take.

The Damage Burst is so incredible weak. That you need to do it 3 times to Kill 1 Aircraft from a Full 12 Plane Squadron.

And the the few Seconds of Reinforced AA is so Irrelevant that Testing with a Friend showed pretty clearly.

Using AA Reinforced Sector gives you roundabout 1 Extra Kill assuming the Enemy Carries out at least 2 Attack Runs with that Squadron.

And pls note. Thats assuming a Cruiser with at least Decent AA.

For Ships with Weak AA you wont even make a Difference unless your Striked 3 Times with the same Squadron. And even on Ships with very Strong AA the Difference barely grows to 2 Aircraft when your Attacked by the same Squadron Twice.

 

Not that it matters. Because the Number of Attacks is not Changed at all.

Entirely Regardless of using Sector Reinforcement or not.

The Enemy CV will be able to get the Exact Same Number of Drops on you with that Squadron.

 

 

 

Right now CVs are only one thing.

And that is Frustrating.

They are Incredible Stressful to Play. Because as a CV your the Major Deciding Factor of Winning or Losing the Match.

Meaning that barely anyone will Play High Tier CVs because the Potato Players thanks to that Incredible Influence they have of course constantly Lose as the Remaining Team cant Cover for them.

While being Targeted by a CV is Extremely Frustrating and Unrewarding because you cant do anything about it.

 

Great Way of making CVs the least Fun Experience in the Entire Game for both the CV Players and the Players Targeted by them.

I understand what you’re saying, however I disagree, if I fly my Kaga squadron over a t8 (or even t7) AA  cruiser, I am GOING to take losses no matter what I do. Yes, I don’t take as many losses as I used to pre rework, but I also do much less damage per time.

 

sure, I can come back again and again, that’s the problem. 

 

Imo, rebalancing needs to happen, I think that they should remove AA mounts from the list of modules that can be incapacitated.

 

 

EDIT:

 

i also think that only torp bombers should be able to spot, the other two shouldn’t be able to spot, that would reduce the impact of CV’s considerably. 

 

Though also for the sake of balance, I think cv torp speed should be increased across the board by 5kt OR flood chance increased considerably (due to the change in flood mechanics)

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

Yes, I don’t take as many losses as I used to pre rework, but I also do much less damage per time.

 

Except you deal at least the same amount of damage as an RTS CV in the same time, so that's moot.

Therefore you

- have the same damage dealing capabilities

- have a far higher amount of possible targets

- take far fewer losses

- have far more reserves

 

Yeah, nothing wrong here. /s

 

On that note:

Spoiler

 

Sure must be fun to get killed before you can even see a single enemy ship.

But hey, at least he got a plane kill lol.

[Rionnen_marksman]

10 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Except you deal at least the same amount of damage as an RTS CV in the same time, so that's moot.

Therefore you

- have the same damage dealing capabilities

- have a far higher amount of possible targets

- take far fewer losses

- have far more reserves

 

Yeah, nothing wrong here. /s

 

On that note:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Sure must be fun to get killed before you can even see a single enemy ship.

But hey, at least he got a plane kill lol.

You took that rather a long way out of context, I was responding to the point made by Sunleader that you don’t lose a plane and can ignore all AA (demonstrably not true).

 

i also stated the problem is that I can just go back again and again to the same target (obviously if I somehow lose all my planes I’ve got to wait) 

 

Stopping that happening to the poor t6 cruiser? Restrict CV MM to +\-1, yes that has its drawbacks too, but no t6 is designed or has the capabilities to effectively repel a t8 CV. (Especially the enterprise 😂)

 

thats not really a new problem though, pre rework DFAA helped... but could be tricked out of people and then guess what? You just go back when it’s down and they have no chance at all.

[El2aZeR]

19 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

You took that rather a long way out of context

 

Does it matter? The very idea that reworked CVs somehow deal less damage than RTS ones is still wrong regardless.

 

20 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

thats not really a new problem though, pre rework DFAA helped... but could be tricked out of people and then guess what? You just go back when it’s down and they have no chance at all.

 

You do realize "baiting" inherently implies that your opponent misplays?

[CptBarney]

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Does it matter? The very idea that reworked CVs somehow deal less damage than RTS ones is still wrong regardless.

 

 

You do realize "baiting" inherently implies that your opponent misplays?

I was expecting more of a stomp on your end when it came to that match with the shokaku spamming fighters on top of his allies to keep you at bay.

 

But i guess even teammates will do anything to throw lol.

 

Good game though.

[Rionnen_marksman]

38 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Does it matter? The very idea that reworked CVs somehow deal less damage than RTS ones is still wrong regardless.

 

 

You do realize "baiting" inherently implies that your opponent misplays?

1. It does matter when you’re not talking about damage, you’re talking about plane losses.

 

2. Yes, they should wait longer... many didn’t though. 

 

Ill add another point here actually...

 

3. Are you sure that server wide stats on post rework cv’s are roughly the same as pre rework? (Not looked it up myself)

[Capra76]

1 hour ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

Stopping that happening to the poor t6 cruiser? Restrict CV MM to +\-1, yes that has its drawbacks too, but no t6 is designed or has the capabilities to effectively repel a t8 CV. (Especially the enterprise 😂)

 

In practice the only way that could happen is if every game became +/-1, not going to happen.