CV Rework Discussion

[WingedHussar_Adler]

29 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

This is one of the "viable" alternatives the mechanics of the rework leaves us with, yes.

The other would be for CVs to remain hilariously overpowered, being able to singlehandedly decide matches without any input from the enemy team. As it stands now a skilled CV player can only be defeated by, ironically, their own team.

 

There is no middle ground.

only problem is that most can not use that feature of CV and as such do not disturbe overal balance much.

 

also top player from almost every ship are well over 70% of WR...meaning (by your logic) every ship is OP and has ability to win battles by themself....but offcourse it is not the ship but captain....same goes for CV too infact.

 

 

[El2aZeR]

18 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

only problem is that most can not use that feature of CV and as such do not disturbe overal balance much.

 

Same can be said about many other blatantly overpowered ships.

Yet for some reason CVs need special treatment?

 

18 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

also top player from almost every ship are well over 70% of WR...meaning (by your logic) every ship is OP and has ability to win battles by themself....but offcourse it is not the ship but captain....same goes for CV too infact.

 

Except for the fact that such players have no chance whatsoever against a skilled reworked CV player.

What makes reworked CVs overpowered is that they have objectively no counterplay, which is requirement for the rework concept to work. When you e.g. meet a 80% WR BB player, you have options to deal with and outplay him regardless of what class you play. If you meet a 80% WR CV player on the other hand there is literally nothing you can do except for praying that his team is incompetent to the extreme. And even that may not be enough for your own team to win the match.

 

Whether something is balanced or not isn't purely written in stats.

[Yedwy]

37 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

only problem is that most can not use that feature of CV and as such do not disturbe overal balance much.

 

also top player from almost every ship are well over 70% of WR...meaning (by your logic) every ship is OP and has ability to win battles by themself....but offcourse it is not the ship but captain....same goes for CV too infact.

Look bro, I am not especially good in cvs but I have a basic competence and in vast majority of battels to win the match only thing the team has to do is not yolo, thats it, give me time to demolish them and as added bonus they get to plonk safely at some spotted reds... Only times this doesnt work is if enemy cv is better then me and stacks damage and kills faster then me and belive me there is depressively small number of really good cv players around so chance to meet them is nearly zero...

[WingedHussar_Adler]

3 hours ago, Yedwy said:

Look bro, I am not especially good in cvs but I have a basic competence and in vast majority of battels to win the match only thing the team has to do is not yolo, thats it, give me time to demolish them and as added bonus they get to plonk safely at some spotted reds... Only times this doesnt work is if enemy cv is better then me and stacks damage and kills faster then me and belive me there is depressively small number of really good cv players around so chance to meet them is nearly zero...

Problem is that CV have (in general) lower dmg than BBs of same tier. So in practice I do not see that demolishing. 

 

I know theory. But in practice. Every single CV player I met last couple of days were in bottom 4 spots after the game. 

 

Theory vs reality is greatly disturbed

[WingedHussar_Adler]

This iteration of CV is final…..they will not change it to RTS model.

So lets see what they did good and what they did not do good.

GOOD THINGS: death of thousands cuts…..well I think it is much better deal than with hughe alpha where good/great players could put out ships (DDs and some cruisers) in one pass….even DPM is similar this ALHA strike influenced much more overall battle. It is not the same to kill dd in first minute by crosdrop with 3 TBs in one pass or give him chance to retreat from rockets that do not kill instant. Second good thing is that CV (as all other classes) has ability to attack whole game if he is a little bit carefull. Every other class has unlimited ammo so in fact CV do. I see no problem there if we change some other things. AAA is fine (with accepted suggestions)

 

BAD THINGS: spotting, anti DD weapon, no risk, ability to influence A from C, CV should be nemesis to BBs not DDs.

 

Suggestions that would make this iteration of CVs much more balanced:

 

1. – remove AP. Ap does not fit into “death by thousands cuts”. It is just wrong. Leave only HE with greater dispersion so BBs are hitted and DDs not so often

2. – introduce radio system. CV sees target but only ships in radio range see them also….Ships out of radiorange do not see ships, do not see ships on minimap – WOT style

3 – remove/modify rockets….rockets are anti DD weapons. CV should not be anti DD, it should be anti BB ship. Or leave rockets like tiny tims. HVARS (Big E especially) are just wrong. I would remove rockets totally from game.

4 – reduce bomb DMG increase torpedos dmg (again moving towards BBs dmg from DD/CA dmg)

5 – introduce range…lets say 80/100 km…that’s way CV need to move much better, and can not influence A from C….if there is fight for points and CV did not move….he can not reach A…he can not kill dds on A…he can not decap…..more risk involved.

 

 

Now back to AAA….it is fine….in my opinion most “defence” from CVs should come from movement. That’s why I sugest torpedos to be main weapons….DD will avoid it with ease…..Cruiser will avoid it or eat one…..BBs will get more of them.

With rockets and precise HE bombs DD is fucked…..but if we would remove rockets, increase dispersion of HE DD in fact would be very hard to hit for CV.

 

Movement to avoid torpedos + runing out of range of CV is viable active defence (later especialy in endgame).

 

All this can be inplementd in this CV gameplay without nay problem and would solev a lot of provlems

[HaachamaShipping]

11 hours ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

see below what Rionnen_marksman said:

 

And as I stated earlier, I prefer to get sunk fast by a good CV player than bit-by-bit by a CV potato, who can onlydo it due to unlimited planes.

If a potato sinks you bit by bit with planes from restoration, what would prevent them from just sinking you bit by bit with planes he could access from the start of the game?

 

If they lose all their planes at the start of the game, why would they suddenly be a threat late-game with half-full squads?

[LordTareq]

I like the suggestion of an action radius for the aircraft, will make playing CV’s more engaging as they need to move closer to the front and gives a better chance of killing one, which is one of the most annoying aspects of CV imho, you barely ever have enough time to kill the CV even when dominating the match.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 1 Minute, LordTareq sagte:

I like the suggestion of an action radius for the aircraft, will make playing CV’s more engaging as they need to move closer to the front and gives a better chance of killing one, which is one of the most annoying aspects of CV imho, you barely ever have enough time to kill the CV even when dominating the match.

Thats such a good idea I believe WG will surely implement it soon.

Keep them coming guys. 

☆

[Yedwy]

1 minute ago, LordTareq said:

I like the suggestion of an action radius for the aircraft, will make playing CV’s more engaging as they need to move closer to the front and gives a better chance of killing one, which is one of the most annoying aspects of CV imho, you barely ever have enough time to kill the CV even when dominating the match.

Aaaand then you think about who you rely upon to protect you in a random match... No, joust no... As things stand now you gain dpm by getting closer with a cv as well staying away is a neccesity due to the lack of protection and not a wanted feature...

[mein_nick_ist_besetzt]

50 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

Suggestions that would make this iteration of CVs much more balanced:

 

1. – remove AP. Ap does not fit into “death by thousands cuts”. It is just wrong. Leave only HE with greater dispersion so BBs are hitted and DDs not so often

2. – introduce radio system. CV sees target but only ships in radio range see them also….Ships out of radiorange do not see ships, do not see ships on minimap – WOT style

3 – remove/modify rockets….rockets are anti DD weapons. CV should not be anti DD, it should be anti BB ship. Or leave rockets like tiny tims. HVARS (Big E especially) are just wrong. I would remove rockets totally from game.

4 – reduce bomb DMG increase torpedos dmg (again moving towards BBs dmg from DD/CA dmg)

5 – introduce range…lets say 80/100 km…that’s way CV need to move much better, and can not influence A from C….if there is fight for points and CV did not move….he can not reach A…he can not kill dds on A…he can not decap…..more risk involved.

I'm guessing that you don't play CVs often, do you?

[WingedHussar_Adler]

9 minutes ago, mein_nick_ist_besetzt said:

I'm guessing that you don't play CVs often, do you?

only 3.000 battles in CV...you?

[mein_nick_ist_besetzt]

1 minute ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

only 5.000 battles

fair enough. And yet in a single set of proposals you want to:

 

1) remove the means to fight DDs and severely limit the means to fight the CCs

2) move the CV even closer to where the DDs and CCs actually are

3) both of the above while knowing that the CV player is either flying or navigating

 

Wouldn't that make a CV a one-time, disposable take off ship?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, mein_nick_ist_besetzt sagte:

fair enough. And yet in a single set of proposals you want to:

 

1) remove the means to fight DDs and severely limit the means to fight the CCs

2) move the CV even closer to where the DDs and CCs actually are

3) both of the above while knowing that the CV player is either flying or navigating

 

Wouldn't that make a CV a one-time, disposable take off ship?

Actually getting close isn't hard. 

But removing the abilities to fight DD's is the most stupid thing. 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

1 minute ago, mein_nick_ist_besetzt said:

fair enough. And yet in a single set of proposals you want to:

 

1) remove the means to fight DDs and severely limit the means to fight the CCs

2) move the CV even closer to where the DDs and CCs actually are

3) both of the above while knowing that the CV player is either flying or navigating

 

Wouldn't that make a CV a one-time, disposable take off ship?

1- in my opinion it is wrong for CV to hunt dd....it was historicaly wrong, it is balanc vise wrong...one of strong points of CV is that he can neutrilaze and eliminate DD with ease and DD can not do much except smoke up

2 - skill

3 - skill BUT bring back option to manually drive ship so CV can fine tune his position 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

1 minute ago, Yoshanai said:

Actually getting close isn't hard. 

But removing the abilities to fight DD's is the most stupid thing. 

not tottaly...you can still hunt them with HE bomba...but not with clinical precision like now with rockets

[HaachamaShipping]

1 hour ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

AAA is fine (with accepted suggestions)

Ha. Sure... 

1 hour ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

Now back to AAA….it is fine….in my opinion most “defence” from CVs should come from movement. That’s why I sugest torpedos to be main weapons….DD will avoid it with ease…..Cruiser will avoid it or eat one…..BBs will get more of them.

With rockets and precise HE bombs DD is fucked…..but if we would remove rockets, increase dispersion of HE DD in fact would be very hard to hit for CV.

 

Movement to avoid torpedos + runing out of range of CV is viable active defence (later especialy in endgame).

Depending on CV player skill and torps used, a torp can be extremely hard to dodge even for DDs. Add to that a single torp hit already wrecks a DD and that some CVs can in fact cross-torp with a single squad and I do not think this is a real solution. Cruisers and BBs would stay screwed anyway.

 

And your suggested 80/100 km range covers multiple high tier maps...

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 4 Minuten, WingedHussar_Adler sagte:

not tottaly...you can still hunt them with HE bomba...but not with clinical precision like now with rockets

You don't want to face my HE Bombers then. 

Obliterating DD's with them is easy. 

[mein_nick_ist_besetzt]

3 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

1- in my opinion it is wrong for CV to hunt dd....it was historicaly wrong, it is balanc vise wrong...one of strong points of CV is that he can neutrilaze and eliminate DD with ease and DD can not do much except smoke up

2 - skill

3 - skill BUT bring back option to manually drive ship so CV can fine tune his position 

Historically, my DDs wouldn't run off "to cap" either, so I won't take that as an argument. Neither is having CVs in the middle of gunfight for the matter - you should decide on the approach ;)

 

"Skill" is just another iteration of "get gud" - the proposed changes do nothing for balance, they however put the skill floor *required* to play a CV on levels nobody else needs to start on.

 

4 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Actually getting close isn't hard. 

But removing the abilities to fight DD's is the most stupid thing. 

Getting close is a must anyway, as CV is totally ineffective while in transit.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

1 hour ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

If a potato sinks you bit by bit with planes from restoration, what would prevent them from just sinking you bit by bit with planes he could access from the start of the game?

 

If they lose all their planes at the start of the game, why would they suddenly be a threat late-game with half-full squads?

 

I guess I just stop here, as I don't like talking to a wall... :)

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 7 Minuten, Deckeru_Maiku sagte:

 

I guess I just stop here, as I don't like talking to a wall... :)

You are stopping because he is absolutely right. 

[Capra76]

2 hours ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

If they lose all their planes at the start of the game, why would they suddenly be a threat late-game with half-full squads?

 

AA mounts shot away by HE fire, fewer allies to provide support, generally just less AA to stop him.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 13 Minuten, Capra76 sagte:

 

AA mounts shot away by HE fire, fewer allies to provide support, generally just less AA to stop him.

Since when does AA stop anything regardless of AA modules????? 

[HaachamaShipping]

29 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

AA mounts shot away by HE fire, fewer allies to provide support, generally just less AA to stop him.

Continuous dps is utterly incapable of preventing strikes in the first place. The only ship with enough continuous dps to maybe pose an issue for any CV in its MM spread might be the Texas (to T4 CVs). But generally, continuous dps is not enough to shut down CVs (which is why good players still hurt you from the get go if they want to). What shuts down CV potatoes hard are two things:

• flak buffs they fly into and wipe their squad in 1-2 hits
• their own inability to get basic CV gameplay right, like correct aim or positioning.

The first point is tied to long-range AA, thus to the large caliber AA mounts that hardly ever get fully wiped (and on DDs form the main caliber guns). A drop in continuous dps that comes with all your small caliber AA dying does not decrease the flak buffs and thus does not cause much of a degradation of the idiot filter they are. Meanwhile basic CV incompetence is absolutely unrelated to AA effectiveness. A player that does not know how to aim will miss you, whether you have AA or not.

[CptBarney]

24 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Since when does AA stop anything regardless of AA modules????? 

They make funny and loud noises that scares smoll potatoes and other creatures.

 

Imagine texas with a 50% flat out increase in its con dps and AA max range at 5.8km?

 

Makes me wonder if that would actually do anything.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, CptBarney sagte:

They make funny and loud noises that scares smoll potatoes and other creatures.

 

Imagine texas with a 50% flat out increase in its con dps and AA max range at 5.8km?

 

Makes me wonder if that would actually do anything.

It would be felt but won't prevent strikes.