CV Rework Discussion

[El2aZeR]

10 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

Annoys me that ships have an endless stream of shells.

 

If the logic of some people here were to be taken seriously then the amount of shells a ship can fire per match is also limited due to the match timer just like CV reserves.

Here's the relevant question tho: Does it matter?

[HaachamaShipping]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

You mean smaller, right?

Because most T8 CVs easily rival RTS Midway in terms of strike reserves. In fact e.g. even in terms of individual plane reserves reworked Shokaku almost rivals pure strike 0/3/3 RTS Shokaku from 4 years ago (35 vs 36 TBs, 33 vs 36 DBs).

Saipan is pretty much the only CV left which has what were considered appropriate strike reserves in RTS at T8 and even she gets a couple more planes in comparison.

I meant larger in that you get more planes from the start than the usual like up to 12 to 14 of each type. Because obviously, if you just take away plane regen and let people work with something like Implacable's 12/12/12 setup, that's not going to work out.

45 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

Sorry, but what is supposed to be the "decent aspect" here? Getting slowly swarmed to death by numbers of airplanes instead of getting sunk by skill?

I would prefer the skill death, as it would mean that I would have many more situations were I would stay alive, due to the attacking CV being a potato and wasting his planes until he runs out of them...

So many more skilless potato CVs in the game than skilled CV players... as it is now, skill is not needed to p.o. players in other classes, but still skill wins the battles. So: nothing changed since before reework - except for even more non-CV players getting frustrated and wishing CVs out of the game

The decent aspect is that it limits the amount of OPness the good CV player can get out of the ship vs what potatoes get. For the surface target player, it doesn't change much whether players have to play with fixed hangar size or regenerating planes, except it makes it a tiny bit more equal between CV players of differing skill. And just as much as idiots will waste their planes (which tbh, often are not much of a threat except for spotting), good players will just be able to throw more planes at you from the start.

[Rionnen_marksman]

Just now, El2aZeR said:

 

If the logic of some people here were to be taken seriously then the amount of shells a ship can fire per match is also limited due to the match timer just like CV reserves.

Here's the relevant question tho: Does it matter?

Probably not, I just find it rather funny when people complain about a cv having an unlimited amount of planes (call them.... cv shells) that take time to get across the map (call it a ‘reload’)....

 

whilst sailing their non cv ship firing shells that have a set reload time.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

12 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

The decent aspect is that it limits the amount of OPness the good CV player can get out of the ship vs what potatoes get

 

Uhm... nope, it doesn't.

Good CV players still make the difference in battles. Same as before reework, only even more non-CV players are pi$$ed now about CVs

[Rionnen_marksman]

2 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

Uhm... nope, it doesn't.

Good CV players still make the difference in battles. Same as before reework, only even more non-CV players are pi$$ed now about CVs

Not sure how true that is tbh, pre rework A cv could lock down and ruin another cv’s game WHILST still doing huge alpha to multiple other ships.

 

I’m not saying this is perfect (I personally preferred the RTS setup, though imo that was MUCH more OP than this is, maybe that’s because I only have a t8 cv) but I think it’s an improvement for the other classes. (Which could still have been followed and harassed by a cv pre rework)

 

 

[El2aZeR]

17 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

I meant larger in that you get more planes from the start than the usual like up to 12 to 14 of each type.

 

Fun fact:

Initial reserves of reworked CVs are actually fairly close to the total reserves of RTS CVs in most cases. Only the T10s get vastly outmatched.

Basic examples:

24 of Independence (-/12/12) vs 38 of Ranger (12/12/14)

48 of RTS Shokaku (-/24/24) vs 49 of RW Shokaku (16/17/16)

 

Even in terms of individual planes they aren't that far apart.

 

17 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

The decent aspect is that it limits the amount of OPness the good CV player can get out of the ship vs what potatoes get.

 

This WOULD be true if AA were actually capable of downing a significant amount of aircraft. Too bad it isn't.

 

7 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

Not sure how true that is tbh, pre rework A cv could lock down and ruin another cv’s game WHILST still doing huge alpha to multiple other ships.

 

Said alpha was dealt at a much reduced RoF, making them far less flexible.

RTS CVs also had to deal with no fly zones which presented no counterplay options for the CV player whatsoever, meaning they had to rely on teammates to deal with them.

 

Locking down the opposing CV is actually of less value than one might think as this can happen only against potatoes which are naturally more useless. Anyone who has mastered the basics of fighter combat will prove to be much more disruptive to even a skilled player.

Besides, it's not like potatoes now are any more useful compared to before. If anything they've actually become more useless if stats are any indication.

[Rionnen_marksman]

True enough @El2aZeR

 

imo, there are bigger problems than CV’s in this game.

 

except at low tiers, 4 cv’s is too much for low tier battles, that is a problem

[HaachamaShipping]

23 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

Uhm... nope, it doesn't.

Good CV players still make the difference in battles. Same as before reework, only even more non-CV players are pi$$ed now about CVs

That they would do regardless of how the aircraft are supplied.

16 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

This WOULD be true if AA were actually capable of downing a significant amount of aircraft. Too bad it isn't.

For one, do you think just providing an initial pool of aircraft with no regeneration is going to improve things? Also regarding skill gap.

Second, while for now it seems AA is going to stay like this, who knows where this game will be going. One reason why I considered Ark Royal still a decent purchase is because any increase in AA power makes spammable planes more useful than having few good planes.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

12 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

That they would do regardless of how the aircraft are supplied.

Exactly. That's what I said. So why do we need a (nearly) unlimited amount of planes (for the potatoes) when in the end it makes no difference to the time before the reeework (which WG gives as the reason for this mechanic).

 

[El2aZeR]

9 minutes ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

For one, do you think just providing an initial pool of aircraft with no regeneration is going to improve things? Also regarding skill gap.

Second, while for now it seems AA is going to stay like this, who knows where this game will be going. One reason why I considered Ark Royal still a decent purchase is because any increase in AA power makes spammable planes more useful than having few good planes.

 

Nah, unless WG decides to scrap the rework and start anew even radical adjustments won't really solve anything as the fundamentals themselves are what is causing such issues.

 

Well, considering the last official statement was "is all balans now camrade" I actually wouldn't expect too much more at this point.

Especially if the rumor about WG having given up on the rework is to be believed, which becomes more and more credible as 0.8.10 will be the third major patch in which no significant adjustments are made.

[HaachamaShipping]

5 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Exactly. That's what I said. So why do we need a (nearly) unlimited amount of planes (for the potatoes) when in the end it makes no difference to the time before the reeework (which WG gives as the reason for this mechanic).

 

More like, if it makes no difference, why complain about it? It is the current status quo, there is no need to change it if it doesn't improve anything.

 

[Rionnen_marksman]

30 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

Exactly. That's what I said. So why do we need a (nearly) unlimited amount of planes (for the potatoes) when in the end it makes no difference to the time before the reeework (which WG gives as the reason for this mechanic).

 

Because this way even potatoes can carry on playing to the end of the game

[BLUB__BLUB]

1 hour ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

Uhm... nope, it doesn't.

Good CV players still make the difference in battles. Same as before reework, only even more non-CV players are pi$$ed now about CVs

But the non-CV players even if potato, can actually take a CV and... Oh wait, they do... 

 

20 minutes ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

Because this way even potatoes can carry on playing to the end of the game

Only if they meet a red potato team with a red potato CV. That big Piñata is easy prey if your team sucks. 

Only a good CV player will survive onto the end if he has a potato team. If he's no good and has potato tem, he'll be dead quickly.

Because after capping, guess what DD is gonna do... 

 

OK a really lucky one might as well, as usual you'd better be lucky than good. 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

2 hours ago, Sleepy_Bunny said:

More like, if it makes no difference, why complain about it? It is the current status quo, there is no need to change it if it doesn't improve anything.

 

see below what Rionnen_marksman said:

2 hours ago, Rionnen_marksman said:

Because this way even potatoes can carry on playing to the end of the game

 

And as I stated earlier, I prefer to get sunk fast by a good CV player than bit-by-bit by a CV potato, who can onlydo it due to unlimited planes.

 

2 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

But the non-CV players even if potato, can actually take a CV and... Oh wait, they do... 

 

Only if they meet a red potato team with a red potato CV. That big Piñata is easy prey if your team sucks. 

Only a good CV player will survive onto the end if he has a potato team. If he's no good and has potato tem, he'll be dead quickly.

Because after capping, guess what DD is gonna do... 

 

OK a really lucky one might as well, as usual you'd better be lucky than good. 

 

I play Hosho and the other T4 CVs a bit recently.

I often get utter potato teams.

And still I'm usually among the last three ships getting sunk, although I am a first class finest kind CV potato myself.

 

And when playing against CVs, I get good teams, I get bad teams, I get lots of potato CVs, but still they usually are among the last enemy ships to get sunk.

So from my POV I can't subscribe to Your view... might happen for You, but in those random battles I do during the daytime CVs rarely die early.

[bEtHeNs]

4 horas antes, El2aZeR dijo:

 

If the logic of some people here were to be taken seriously then the amount of shells a ship can fire per match is also limited due to the match timer just like CV reserves.

Here's the relevant question tho: Does it matter?

Yes it matters, because in prerework the timing of the looses was relevant. If you managed to kill the other cv planes early then it was a won match. Now this is not happening.

 

Comparing ammunition with planes in a search of justice betwen classes of ship is a random game.

[El2aZeR]

12 minutes ago, bEtHeNs said:

Yes it matters, because in prerework the timing of the looses was relevant. If you managed to kill the other cv planes early then it was a won match. Now this is not happening now.

 

I frankly fail to see how this is relevant to the question at hand.

 

Also funnily enough it was literally impossible to deplane T7+ CVs early due to the service time penalty. Likewise this didn't guarantee victory as surface ships had viable options to completely lock out the enemy CV from the match.

Now bad CV players are still completely useless, not only because they lose all their planes to flak and as such don't require an enemy CV to deplane them, but also because they can't hit jack with their ordinance. Their influence on the match now is almost equal to someone who goes afk. Meanwhile surface ships lost all practical means to defend against air attacks so eventually a skilled CV will just kill them all if time permits it.

 

Thus having a skilled CV vs a potato CV matchup gives you at least just as good/bad odds to win or lose as previously, aka the potential influence on a match a CV can have is the same as before.

[bEtHeNs]

Justo ahora, El2aZeR dijo:

 

I frankly fail to see how this is relevant to the question at hand.

 

The question is the rework which leads to a comparition with the previous system, and the realism behind each system. The rework made not unlimited but all the time replenishable amount of planes, it affects the game results. Someone said that if we go back to previous system of limited planes they would like to see limited amunition for the ships. Isn't it?

 

I can't remember ships stop firing because they had run out of shells, did that ever happen?

[El2aZeR]

Just now, bEtHeNs said:

The question is the rework which leads to a comparition with the previous system, and the realism behind each system.

 

Uh, no.

The question is whether it is actually relevant that theoretically speaking ships are being limited in ammunition by their reload speed and match time just like CV aircraft.

 

The answer to that is ofc no. What is relevant is the amount of aircraft CVs can field as well as whether AA is capable of putting a significant dent into such reserves. And to that the answer is quite simple, CV reserves are humongous and AA is pitiful.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 And to that the answer is quite simple, CV reserves are humongous and AA is pitiful.

And still from t6 to t10 cvs dmg is in middle of the pack lacking behind BBs in most cases. 

 

How stronger AAA and less planes would influence that?

[El2aZeR]

12 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

And still from t6 to t10 cvs dmg is in middle of the pack lacking behind BBs in most cases. 

 

How stronger AAA and less planes would influence that?

 

Since average stats is only representative of how hard the average player is failing at CV play, why would that matter?

[Yedwy]

8 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Besides, it's not like potatoes now are any more useful compared to before. If anything they've actually become more useless if stats are any indication.

Dont be so negative m8, its not like many of us predicted it will be exactly like this, right? Oh wait... 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

28 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Since average stats is only representative of how hard the average player is failing at CV play, why would that matter?

Because if you make cv "harder" 80% or more players that play them would do almost nothing in them. That would make class underperform by alot compared to rest of classes that are played by same average players. 

[El2aZeR]

7 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

Because if you make cv "harder" 80% or more players that play them would do almost nothing in them. That would make class underperform by alot compared to rest of classes that are played by same average players. 

 

Which is just fine because player skill is irrelevant to balance. Sure, you'd lose most of the playerbase but that's the natural outcome when your fundamental mechanics are severely flawed.

If someone were to have the desire to play CVs without getting completely demolished, they would just have to git gud.

 

CV play requires an entirely different skill set, more so than any other class. As such how average players perform in other classes is irrelevant since a comparison cannot be made.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Which is just fine because player skill is irrelevant to balance. Sure, you'd lose most of the playerbase but that's the natural outcome when your fundamental mechanics are severely flawed.

If someone were to have the desire to play CVs without getting completely demolished, they would just have to git gud.

 

CV play requires an entirely different skill set, more so than any other class. As such how average players perform in other classes is irrelevant since a comparison cannot be made.

basically CV would be only elitistic ship (average player would be totally useless in it) in which top dogs would do average things, while the rest ships would be EZ mode ships(compared to CV) in which potatoes would do same reasaults as top dogs in CVs.....that is one big mess :)

 

 

[El2aZeR]

12 minutes ago, WingedHussar_Adler said:

basically CV would be only elitistic ship (average player would be totally useless in it) in which top dogs would do average things, while the rest ships would be EZ mode ships(compared to CV) in which potatoes would do same reasaults as top dogs in CVs.....that is one big mess :)

 

This is one of the "viable" alternatives the mechanics of the rework leaves us with, yes.

The other would be for CVs to remain hilariously overpowered, being able to singlehandedly decide matches without any input from the enemy team. As it stands now a skilled CV player can only be defeated by, ironically, their own team.

 

There is no middle ground.