CV Rework Discussion

[CptBarney]

4 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

Wtf is that? 

YOU CAN'T DO THIS TO ME WARGAMING. 1 WHOLE HOUR??? YOU CAN'T DO THIS TO MEEEEE!!! 

 

@CptBarney

 

Nah I believe sadly all has been said

Ya i just saw dat, guess the server guinea pigs have decided to transcend regardless.

 

shame, guess wargaming can leave the thread alone for now untill they decide to idk add more things i guess.

 

oh well, might as well start doing a line drawing of a CV but one that actually existed. Just too chooose....

[WingedHussar_Adler]

2 hours ago, AndyHill said:

In randoms good BBs will blab cruisers just like in CW and good carriers will strike the important targets and spot just like in CW. Likewise, bad players will still be bad in CW. If a game design only works when there are bad players around, the design is inherently bad and failed. The game needs to be balanced for good players, especially when it will make things better for baddies as well, or at least not worse.

Problem is that most semi competitive clans will not accept your average WOWS player into clan or/and CW.....and CW has very good system of leaving "not so good" clans to potato in between them on first level...no amount of grind will help you in CW if you just can not win.

 

and WG will balance game to accommodate highest percentage of players.....and sadly most in wows do not know basics of gameplay(here i blame WG for dumbing down the game instead forcing peoples to lean a thing)

[El2aZeR]

I fail to see how minimap only spotting is going to solve anything when you consider the actual issue is CVs can just kill everything by themselves.

But then again that would imply WG knows how reworked CVs play.

[CptBarney]

Well despite trying to spot dd's even killing them and such, i ended up losing every game in my midway today (3 games but still). It still mostly stock, but i didn't think that would hinder my performance soo much, and im guessing because of the stock planes trying to manage plane reserves is harder, plus not getting hit by flak from multiple ships is harder as well.

 

Annoys me to no end when you spot something and no one bothers attacking it despite whinging to spot something.

 

Did 91k, 78k and 113k so far 6ish kills altogether might be 7.

 

Dunno if its me, lack of experience at tier 10 or some other reason.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, CptBarney said:

Well despite trying to spot dd's even killing them and such, i ended up losing every game in my midway today (3 games but still). It still mostly stock, but i didn't think that would hinder my performance soo much, and im guessing because of the stock planes trying to manage plane reserves is harder, plus not getting hit by flak from multiple ships is harder as well.

 

Annoys me to no end when you spot something and no one bothers attacking it despite whinging to spot something.

 

Did 91k, 78k and 113k so far 6ish kills altogether might be 7.

 

Dunno if its me, lack of experience at tier 10 or some other reason.

You have to consider also, that the non-T10s got mostly the buffs, while the T10s got slightly buffs, nothing or nerfs. I don't remember the values, but there was a table of the changed HP Pools.

[CptBarney]

@Yoshanai Well since your an expert on miss midway, how teh feck do you play her even with stock planes and three module upgrades missing?

 

Tried to do the same things as miss lexi but somewhat mixed results so far, kinda was expecting planes to be more meaty, and enemy team annoyingly enough kept blobing and sticking to islands. While also somehow having crossfires (because in two matchs my team thought blobbing into one giant mass was a great idea....).

[Panocek]

13 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Well since your an expert on miss midway, how teh feck do you play her even with stock planes and three module upgrades missing?

You play other ships until you stockpile enough Free Exp and credits to get Midway into shape. She's no Hakuryu to get away with stock planes.

 

Also with 0.8.7 T10 CVs were actually nerfed in terms of plane hp, while T8 got buffs "to flatten out plane progression". Or something like that

[CptBarney]

4 minutes ago, Panocek said:

You play other ships until you stockpile enough Free Exp and credits to get Midway into shape. She's no Hakuryu to get away with stock planes.

 

Also with 0.8.7 T10 CVs were actually nerfed in terms of plane hp, while T8 got buffs "to flatten out plane progression". Or something like that

Then ill probs just play georgia and jean bart then (not that i mind either way).

 

Plane hp doesn't seem to scale that well from tier 8 to 10 if its only a few points, but then i guess you don't want planus to be too gud.

 

What a bloody mess lol.

[Panocek]

Just now, CptBarney said:

What a bloody mess lol.

You must be new to WoWs in 2019

 

Well, plane hp gains are about 10%, for example torpedo bonkers go up from 2080hp on Lexi to 2290hp on Midway, SE included. Speed gain of 15kts is more substantial with Improved Engines and FCM2.

[El2aZeR]

<4 mins ADE.

"Skillgap is smaller than before" LOL.

Spoiler

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, Panocek said:

You must be new to WoWs in 2019

 

Well, plane hp gains are about 10%, for example torpedo bonkers go up from 2080hp on Lexi to 2290hp on Midway, SE included. Speed gain of 15kts is more substantial with Improved Engines and FCM2.

Well, the HP buff makes sense. If we go with surface ships, they mostly would gain around 20% more HP from T8 to T10. But Planes where more like 50%-100% more HP (Don't have the real numbers, maybe someone has the table with numbers?)

The gaps are way huger, thus the AA scaling would have larger gaps as well.

 

[El2aZeR]

6 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, the HP buff makes sense. If we go with surface ships, they mostly would gain around 20% more HP from T8 to T10. But Planes where more like 50%-100% more HP (Don't have the real numbers, maybe someone has the table with numbers?)

The gaps are way huger, thus the AA scaling would have larger gaps as well.

 

Except that's a lie.

I know, I too am surprised.

 

 

[El2aZeR]

What is this? I lost all my planes before they could drop because I was an idiot and attacked a Monty covered by a DM that had DFAA?

Spoiler

 

And why are my planes grayed out with a fat 0 on their symbol? Could it be that I'm being *gasp* punished for my stupid decision making?

Spoiler

 

What the heck, I only got 60k damage in a T10 match, lost almost all my strike planes and had to actually support my team to secure a win?

Spoiler

 

Clearly the rework is so much better now. I can't just  all over AA ships in the RTS iteration. Boo.

 

And while we're at it:

Near fastest possible first strike in rework: 1:30 mins

Near fastest possible first strike in RTS: 2:44 mins (and required DD to play bad, turning into a torp he already dodged)

Spoiler

 

Same map, same CV, pretty much same damage dealt.

Clearly the rework too is much better in this regard. /s

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Except that's a lie.

I know, I too am surprised.

 

What exactly? That the HP gap between planes were larger than between ships?

[El2aZeR]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

What exactly? That the HP gap between planes were larger than between ships?

 

Is this really what you want to nitpick? "Oh, look, but THAT is true. Ignore what this discussion is actually about where I blatantly lied!"

I know you like to ignore facts and you never admit you've been lying the entire time when you're proven wrong, but still. 

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Is this really what you want to nitpick? "Oh, look, but THAT is true. Ignore what this discussion is actually about where I blatantly lied!"

I know you like to ignore facts and you never admit you've been lying the entire time when you're proven wrong, but still. 

I assumed you are nitpicking. I made a statement, which is correct. It's about the statement.

I ignore facts? The fact I was saying is correct. I claimed, that the HP gaps were huger of planes, than of ships.

That statement you ignored I assume, just blame me for not knowing the numbers (which I ask for, so we can check the numbers)

 

I don't lie, if I'm not 100% sure about something, I say it. Not like you do, coming up with irrelevant data, and single samples, who are even more irrelevant.

[El2aZeR]

43 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I made a statement, which is correct.

 

Cute, really.

First of all let's see.

A B-hull NC has 66k HP, a Montana 96.3k. This represents an increase of about 31.5%.

B-hull Bismarck vs GK: 34.6%

B-hull Amagi vs Yama: 31.8%

 

A Lexington TB had 1860 HP, a Midway 2060. This represented an increase of 9.7%.

After the plane HP buff a Lexington TB has 2080 HP, a Midway 2290. This is an increase of 9.2%.

Difference Shokaku vs Haku RFs before: 19.4%.

Difference Shokaku vs Haku RFs now: 9.7%.

Difference Lex vs Midway DBs before: 30.8% (which I believe is the biggest out of them all)

Difference Lex vs Midway DBs now: 9,2%

Difference Imp vs Auda TBs before: 18.9%

Difference Imp vs Auda TBs now: 9.3%

 

I'll spare you the humiliation and won't go any further. Point is your narrative is already wrong. You should've really checked that before throwing your salt at me.

But not only is your narrative a lie, the part about where plane health increased by at least 50% is even more so.

 

Maybe you should reevaluate this statement

43 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I don't lie

 

because it is, ironically, a lie.

Ouch.

 

43 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Not like you do, coming up with irrelevant data, and single samples, who are even more irrelevant.

 

Says the guy who thinks percentage population is relevant when overall population differs.

Single samples are relevant depending on topic. For example in determining whether CVs are overpowered or not.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Cute, really.

First of all let's see.

A B-hull NC has 66k HP, a Montana 96.3k. This represents an increase of about 31.5%.

B-hull Bismarck vs GK: 34.6%

B-hull Amagi vs Yama: 31.8%

 

A Lexington TB had 1860 HP, a Midway 2060. This represented an increase of 9.7%.

After the plane HP buff a Lexington TB has 2080 HP, a Midway 2290. This is an increase of 9.2%.

Difference Shokaku vs Haku RFs before: 19.4%.

Difference Shokaku vs Haku RFs now: 9.7%.

Difference Lex vs Midway DBs before: 30.8% (which I believe is the biggest out of them all)

Difference Lex vs Midway DBs now: 9,2%

Difference Imp vs Auda TBs before: 18.9%

Difference Imp vs Auda TBs now: 9.3%

 

I'll spare you the humiliation and won't go any further. Point is your narrative is already wrong. You should've really checked that before throwing your salt at me.

But not only is your narrative a lie, the part about where plane health increased by at least 50% is even more so.

 

Maybe you should reevaluate this statement

 

because it is, ironically, a lie.

 

 

Says the guy who thinks percentage population is relevant.

Single samples are relevant depending on topic. For example in determining whether CVs are overpowered or not.

Ah, here we go.

 

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

(Don't have the real numbers, maybe someone has the table with numbers?)

I said, that I do not know the numbers. I was even asking for the correct numbers. So where was I'm lying? How can you blame me for lying, when I say, that I don't know the numbers? This is pathetic.

When I call some numbers and say "They are like" and then say, I don't have the numbers, how can you nitpick me for the numbers? It was an estimation clearly.

 

As I said, it's the statement I was giving, not the correct numbers.

 

Beside that.

Kaga DB. 1310 HP vs Hakuryu 2050 = 56% more HP And that even without the Module for T10s.

 

Mogami 39,9k HP -> Zao 40,8k  = 3%

Kagero 15,1k HP -> Shimakaze 17,9k = 16%

 

19 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

After the plane HP buff a Lexington TB has 2080 HP, a Midway 2290. This is an increase of 9.2%. 

This shows clearly, that you didn't understand my point. I was talking about that the gaps are too huge. If there are some planes, which have alreay a good gap, why should they change it? I'm talking about the gaps not about planes, who don't show a gap. And those, where they got huge buffs. Not my fault, when you don't understand the context. Nitpicking at it's finest. You blame for not consindering every single ship with every single value to just exclude them. Next time I will give a footnote*

I was only refering to the large gaps and the planes who got those large buffs. If something wouldn't be clear, you could come up with a nice discussion and friendly discussion, but you are not interessted in that, it seems.

But I assume you would nitpick here again, taking one sentence by sentence, instead of seeing the whole context. Pls don't

 

9 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You have to consider also, that the non-T10s got mostly the buffs, while the T10s got slightly buffs, nothing or nerfs. I don't remember the values, but there was a table of the changed HP Pools.

 

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

But not only is your narrative a lie, the part about where plane health increased by at least 50% is even more so.

1. Kaga.

2. I repeat. I never said, that I know the numbers.

3. It was an estimation, since I don't have the real numbers (I said, that I don't have the real numbers). Calling an estimation a lie....

 

26 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Single samples are relevant depending on topic. For example in determining whether CVs are overpowered or not.

Yes, you show how good you can perform in the Rework and show how bad you perform in RTS... would like to see your best RTS games.

 

27 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Says the guy who thinks percentage population is relevant. 

Oof,  it's way more relevant, then the total number, which is irrelevant. If you say there are 1000 CV players, then it sounds like, there are very few players playing CV. but when there are 2000 players in total, then 50% of all the players are playing CV, that is a huge number. Thus the total number of 1000 gives a totally wrong conclusion.

 

If you say there are 1000 players now and 1500 with RTS. that it sounds like, that the RTS-CV is popluar. But if there are like 100,000 players back then to the RTS times, the number 1500 would show, how unpopular the CV was.

The number with 1000 CV player and 2000 total palyer would show the relation of 50%, and as you mentioned, that the game is unpopular, but it's way more likely, if you would have 100,000 players, that there would be up to 50% CV players of those 100,000 players.**

 

 

 

By the way, for me is this discussion finished, up to you, if you want understand my statement now, or not. I tryed to make it clear, I would have prefered a kindly request to clear it, instead of this.

 

 

 

 

*Statement is not applied to every single ship with every single value. Just those, who are relevent for the topic.

 

**The numbers are purely fictional to explain the issue and to make the differences clear.

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I said, that I do not know the numbers.

 

Which is like saying "no offense, but" before saying something incredibly offensive, especially considering the narrative you're trying to push.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I was talking about that the gaps are too huge.

 

Which is a general statement and as such untrue.

If someone said "all black people are criminals" and then went "lol I only meant the black people who are actually criminals", how would that sound to you?

Yup, like a very poor excuse.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

1. Kaga.

 

Let me quote what you said:

8 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

But Planes where more like 50%-100% more HP

4 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

What exactly? That the HP gap between planes were larger than between ships?

 

You just tried to change your narrative from "lol everyone had a 50% to 100% difference" to "omg, only one of them had that".

Emphasis on "try". Tell me again how you're not lying?

 

But hey, not only that, you take a CV which you KNOW has T6 planes, as a result you now actually mean the gap between T6 and T10. Do you really want me to pull up the relevant numbers?

Two words: Intellectual dishonesty.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Yes, you show how good you can perform in the Rework and show how bad you perform in RTS... would like to see your best RTS games.

 

Ah, but it is you yourself who said that player performance is irrelevant when it comes to balancing and that we should balance around the ship itself, aka its potential capabilities, no? Something that I coincidentally agree with. And guess what, top player performance determines the potential of a mechanic, not average performance.

Therefore this proves that with RTS AA a (rather small) blob was capable of shutting down a T8 CV strike regardless of CV player skill. This is no longer possible in the rework especially when island cover is considered unless the CV player in question is terrible.

As such AA is in fact not stronger in the rework. It was far, far weaker.

Likewise CVs were far more punishable in the RTS iteration.

 

Also my damage and kill records in T8 are with the rework which managed to beat out years of RTS play in just a few months.

This also implies that I wasn't the best RTS Enterprise player on this server. Too bad that isn't true either.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Oof,  it's way more relevant, then the total number, which is irrelevant. If you say there are 1000 CV players, then it sounds like, there are very few players playing CV. but when there are 2000 players in total, then 50% of all the players are playing CV, that is a huge number.

 

PRECISELY.

And that is why it is irrelevant. You have basically just proven that 1 out of 1000 is a better percentage than 1 out of 10000. Some basic logic will get you there, no need to calculate anything.

 

So lets say there was 1 CV player before the rework. After the rework there is still only 1 CV player. The total population pre-rework however was 100, after it total population is 10.

Therefore because the total population has shrunk, that means the rework has improved the population of CV players? Really?

 

Your concept of what is relevant is especially laughable when one considers that this is a seasonal game with varying population depending on the time of year while RTS CV population at least largely stayed the same regardless as they weren't popular enough to be affected by it. Whether that is true of the rework as well remains to be seen but is very likely.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

By the way, for me is this discussion finished

 

Ofc it is. There is no use further discussing anything when you're proven wrong as usual. You quitting the discussion immediately afterwards only to reappear later on spouting the very same things again isn't exactly new.

[Allied_Winter]

8 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

<4 mins ADE.

"Skillgap is smaller than before" LOL.

Soooo the enemy CV did the same thing he probably does in a BB: Straightlining

 

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

You quitting the discussion immediately afterwards only to reappear later on spouting the very same things again isn't exactly new.

So I just copy the last 50 pages and copy/attach them at the end?

[mcboernester]

14 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

 

So I just copy the last 50 pages and copy/attach them at the end?

[Xevious_Red]

14 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

I fail to see how minimap only spotting is going to solve anything when you consider the actual issue is CVs can just kill everything by themselves.

But then again that would imply WG knows how reworked CVs play.

It will be a minor buff to DD - not kept fighter spotted, and not picked up accidentally by a fly over of Torps/AP bombs. Won't help if the CV is actively trying to kill them (which is likely), but does at least mean the CV has to focus them rather than just getting them killed as a side note.

[MadBadDave]

So MM and Cv's are fine are they, ROFL, no they are not.

 

T8 Cvs (top tier) accounted for 10 kills, Saipan was a brilliant CV player, and he won the game for greens, I came second and yep was killed by red CV.

 

So is MM and CV rework Balanced ????????

 

Btw Hood's unique AA also continues to be total pants, no,then why has Tirpitz which is known to have bad ingame AA,which is laughable in it''s self given the time, effort, tallboys and planes it took to kill it, (did only 8 planes attack Yamato, they must've been Russian's if so), maybe if it was Tirpitzki it would have in game AA similar to it's historic value,  and yet Hood's supposedly good AA knocked down less planes than Tirpitz, yes I was focussed on more than Tirp (I was on front line), never mind get an Italian cruiser nobody's ever heard of.

[CptBarney]

2 minutes ago, MadBadDave said:

So MM and Cv's are fine are they, ROFL, no they are not.

 

T8 Cvs (top tier) accounted for 10 kills, Saipan was a brilliant CV player, and he won the game for greens, I came second and yep was killed by red CV.

 

So is MM and CV rework Balanced ????????

 

Btw Hood's unique AA also continues to be total pants, no,then why has Tirpitz which is known to have bad ingame AA,which is laughable in it''s self given the time, effort, tallboys and planes it took to kill it, (did only 8 planes attack Yamato, they must've been Russian's if so), maybe if it was Tirpitzki it would have in game AA similar to it's historic value,  and yet Hood's supposedly good AA knocked down less planes than Tirpitz, yes I was focussed on more than Tirp (I was on front line), never mind get an Italian cruiser nobody's ever heard of.

Hey you played with smoll2razer!

 

I also got rekt by a hakekeku with her dive bombers while trying to kite away with miss georgia (i put myself in a stupid position anyways) but we held of over 7 ships with only 3 lol (amagi shat herself and ran away lol, thank you two smoll toineh minotaurs).

 

Hood's AA has always been trash doe, not sure why peeps actually think she has gud AA.

 

kinda giggle whenever i see her in any tier 8 cv really 'w'

[El2aZeR]

11 minutes ago, MadBadDave said:

So MM and Cv's are fine are they, ROFL, no they are not.

 

Hi there. 

 

Also Nueve is not an Italian ship. She's the USS Boise, a Brooklyn-class CL, bought and renamed by Argentina sometime after WW2.