CV Rework Discussion

[mtm78]

14 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

That's more of a Houshou issue than a general CV issue. Go play something like a Furious, lose all your torp bombers and watch how long it takes to get them back. And if you don't lose all your planes, so they return to the CV, aircraft restoration time is a pointless thing.

 

I think RN CV's are the most balanced ( ~ weakest ) of em all, plox adjust all others to match RN CV's

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, Panocek said:

Except code is for Langley, not Hosho

dunno if WG released new one

 

Actually that depends on the code.

There is one for Hosho as well.

 

Also ranked sprint is a show. The moment the team with the more skilled CV player gets a cap the game is lost for the opposing team because they can't offset how fast a CV kills them anymore.

[Pikkozoikum]

7 hours ago, MAD_3R_Marauder said:

t's a team game in name only.

Where are the tools for actual team-play?

Where it VOIP for the team, so it can communicate/coordinate?

Where is the lobby, to make up a plan pre-match?

 

Clan-Battle (never played it, since I'm not in a clan), is where actual team-play is at. Random is a game of a bunch of single-players.

 

P.s. MW:O has done a _lot_ of stupid stuff and has a _horrible_ reputation for having an insanely toxic community. It also has VOIP for the team and in almost a year I played, I have gotten one, perhaps two matches with ONE a-hole spamming voice-chat (same with WoWs, btw, where, in my experience, toxic chat is rather the exception, not the rule), so it CAN be done and no, there won't be someone screaming at you every match, all match long.

I would say, that many player say, that a team game is not a team game, when there are random battles. Look at games like LoL, Battlefield or what ever. People always complain about, "what is my team doing" ;)

But it is a team game. Play a battleship - are you spotting for you own? Are you capping always alone? You don't play FFA and you rely on your team

8 hours ago, MAD_3R_Marauder said:

See above

Remember that Leroy Jenkins video?

Remember how the team-leader tried to organize and plan the fight until that famous/infamous moment?

That's how the start of a team-game-match is supposed to be.

As long as I know, the Leeroy video was a fake video or some kind of advertisement for the clan. But the planning, that's what you have in clan battles. If you play Warcraft and play random dungeons, you have the same

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, mtm78 said:

 

I think RN CV's are the most balanced ( ~ weakest ) of em all, plox adjust all others to match RN CV's

Weakest CV tier for tier is GZ and even that thing suffers from the fundamental flaw that against competent CV, there is little counterplay. And an Implacable might not devastate your ship with its bombs, but it's pretty much impossible to dodge those without the blessing by RNG and the rocket fighters are still no joke.

[Panocek]

45 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

From what I see, this carrier spotting ability, these annoying fast little mosquitoes buzzing down the map immediately at the start of the battle keeps BB from pressing towards where they WERE going and instead they just end up running for the nearest redline island or cover.

Even during lowest of CV population, be it RTS or REEEwork, most BB players refused to get their ships scratched anyway. Simple reason, most people prefer to fire, not be fired upon

If anything, rare MM brainfarts like 12v12 battleship games shows people will camp simply because they can.

48 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

It also kicks a destroyers efforts in the balls which is a the most vulnerable and frontline class in the game, a class that generally is supposed to perform the role of spotting and is therefore the most frontline and least affording of getting cheaply spotted by carriers. Imho a lot of this common negative and camping gameplay we encounter can be attributed to aircraft spotting targets. Just limit aircraft to 1km spotting and let the spotting roles be performed by ships.

Spotting was raised repeatedly as an issue. Was it fixed? No? Then its working as intended.

 

Which is presumably WG way of hitting two birds with single stone - REEEworking CV and reducing impact of those bloody pesky unicums, flanking, firing from island cover and launching torps at unsuspecting main audience in battleships

53 minutes ago, Sir_Sinksalot said:

2. Cooldown times are clearly not big enough. There is a cooldown with each type of aircraft but clearly it's not enough. I could attack with my torpe planes, lose them, send up some more, rinse and repeat and the cooldown time pretty much tied in with the run time it took to fly to the target, perform a couple of attacks and die.

WG tried to introduce initial delay before CV could take squadrons off, it was scrapped about as fast as it appeared on PTS

[Pikkozoikum]

4 hours ago, mtm78 said:

^^

 

Those graphs are like WG claiming only 30% of ammunition is gold ammo in tanks. 

Hm, I think the total effiency is calculated out of the effiency of damage, spotting, tanking and some other stats, those are somehow normalized to 1. I assume 1 is the mean or something

[veslingr]

13 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Weakest CV tier for tier is GZ and even that thing suffers from the fundamental flaw that against competent CV, there is little counterplay. And an Implacable might not devastate your ship with its bombs, but it's pretty much impossible to dodge those without the blessing by RNG and the rocket fighters are still no joke.

teamplay wins over anything in this game, wins over CV, wins over tomato zombies aka your teammates....it is  team game after all.....side that plays more as a team wins....easy as that.....but so hard for peoples to understand...peoples wanna go solo and do everyithing solo.....it is not working like that....go solo=cv is giggling....play as a team CV is sweating. 

 

Even with teams full of dumbos highest average DMG CV is sitting on some 80 k dmg.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Weakest CV tier for tier is GZ and even that thing suffers from the fundamental flaw that against competent CV, there is little counterplay. And an Implacable might not devastate your ship with its bombs, but it's pretty much impossible to dodge those without the blessing by RNG and the rocket fighters are still no joke.

 

And yet. Even the Graf Zeppelin can Massacre the currently most Overpowered Battleship Kremlin with nothing the Kremlin could do about it aside from Running away to the Corner of the Map hoping the CV doesnt want to Waste his Time on him...

 

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 4 Minuten, Sunleader sagte:

 

And yet. Even the Graf Zeppelin can Massacre the currently most Overpowered Battleship Kremlin with nothing the Kremlin could do about it aside from Running away to the Corner of the Map hoping the CV doesnt want to Waste his Time on him...

 

 

It will not even cost the Graf Pepelin any planes doing so or even if it's such a small amount it wouldn't matter which is funny as hell. And a Kremlin turning to avoid Torps and showing broadside to the whole enemy team is the most beautiful sight. 

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, veslingr said:

teamplay wins over anything in this game

 

Again, no it doesn't. The only thing that can defeat a skilled CV is their own team ironically.

[1MajorKoenig]

17 minutes ago, Yoshanai said:

It will not even cost the Graf Pepelin any planes doing so or even if it's such a small amount it wouldn't matter which is funny as hell. And a Kremlin turning to avoid Torps and showing broadside to the whole enemy team is the most beautiful sight. 

 

What a nonsense. GZ isn’t even capable of attacking a tug boat 

[Sunleader]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Again, no it doesn't. The only thing that can defeat a CV is their own team ironically.

 

Dont bother.

That Guy Claims that between 0.8.6 and 0.8.7 nothing really Changed in terms of CV Balancing.

And the last Time he even Played the Game was in March earlier this Year.

Needless to Say that he doesnt even really Play anything but CVs.

 

His Posts Show that he has pretty much no Idea of whats happening in the Game as well.

So at this Point I am Pretty Convinced that he is just Trolling on Purpose as he doesnt really care

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

What a nonsense. GZ isn’t even capable of attacking a tug boat 

 

Just because that applies to you doesn't mean it applies to everyone else.

 

Ranked out in 16 battles, 3 losses (one *insert known potato clan here* div, one all BBs suiciding, one gigantic throw). High caliber was earned in 14/16 matches. Was never in danger of losing a star.

Balans.

[AndyHill]

7 hours ago, veslingr said:

Dont do "on top of your head" when i did post actual stats couple post up ....on top DMG dealer first CV is on 10 spot. So no it is not close to top...it is 10-th. 

Also if you did bother to look at stats you would see that Stalingrad (as steel ship) has more played games than Hakuryu which is top CV dmg dealer (ot 10.th spot) so steel ships are not rarity anmore they are esential part of this game and most players have couple of them.

 

i will post here again stats, so think to reconsider your post WITH ACTUAL STATS

Ok, let's. 

 

Now I'm not an expert on using the maple syrup data so I might have screwed it up completely here, so take all of this with a grain of salt. Also the data I got is somewhat old and I didn't know how to get aggregate data (somewhat easily) since the data seems to come in segments of player win%. I used the 55-64 bracket of good players for these graphs.

 

In short: I MIGHT HAVE SCREWED UP EVERYTHING WHEN I INTERPRETED THE DATA AND WHAT IT ACTUALLY REPRESENTS.

 

Let's start with damage / spotting:

 

Spoiler

 

Carriers are pretty close to the top in damage, but spotting is definitely something I would classify as "having significant influence looking at a single stat".

 

Next is the kills per match and K/D -ratio:

 

Spoiler

 

Again we have a single stat that might be classified as having significant influence, since beside being close to the top in kills per battle, carriers almost never die themselves.

 

Now we hit something carriers are not very good at: cap control

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

DDs are the absolute masters of cap control, which is not very surprising. Carriers are especially bad at capping, but they do compensate by being the absolute best at decapping - which puts their total values in the general ballpark of cruisers, which are somewhat above battleships.

 

Then the one category carriers absolutely don't do much of: tanking damage

 

Spoiler

Note that this specifically doesn't mean carriers are vulnerable, they just don't do a lot of tanking. Also since these are T10 carriers, this also doesn't mean they are incapable of tanking. Under some circumstances they can be very hard to kill due to the armored deck and virtual invulnerability to dot damage. What this does mean is that carriers don't do much in terms of sharing the bruden of taking hits. In reality the most interesting thing I noticed in this graph is the minimal advantage Salem has over Des Moines.

 

Even though this is a bit of doubling up on survival (due to k/d -ratio already being presented earlier, I'll post the survival rates as well because they are interesting:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

The carriers are obviously something of an outlier in this category as expected (and I would classify this as a single statistic where carriers stand out), but what is really interesting to me is how little difference there is between the rest of the classes. It would be interesting to compare survival rates of BBs and DDs to the data sets of less capable players.

 

I don't think there's much interesting stuff in the rest of the data, win% only measures inter-class balance due to mirror matchmaking and average XP isn't completely comparable so that it could be used for for example measuring the effectiveness of damage dealt (to BB vs DD for example).

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 13 Minuten, 1MajorKoenig sagte:

 

What a nonsense. GZ isn’t even capable of attacking a tug boat 

Since you voted me bad I believe this isn't sarcasm and shows how little experience you have on how CV's work at all. I will from now on simply don't bother with you anymore. 

 

Try being like Sunleader and putting effort into something like for example learning how CV's work and how to play them. He absolutely hates the class and still had the energy to play them just to prove how OP they are. 

[Allied_Winter]

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Ranked out in 16 battles, 3 losses (one *insert known potato clan here* div, one all BBs suiciding, one gigantic throw). High caliber was earned in 14/16 matches. Was never in danger of losing a star.

Balans.

 

I assume a selection of CV's? Or just Easy E?

 

Maybe I should dabble a bit with ranked myself. Now that you've Ranked Out.

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

I assume a selection of CV's? Or just Easy E?

 

Just E.

Although maybe Shokaku is a better pick towards the end of the grind due to Massachusetts/Alabama spam in rank <5.

 

I'm actually a bit sad I can't terrorize ranked players anymore. Should've intentionally thrown some matches just to stay longer. T_T

[veslingr]

49 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Again, no it doesn't. The only thing that can defeat a skilled CV is their own team ironically.

i just do not agree here, never ever had problem with solo CV against us (in division where he spots for his team mates on good position, yes it is hell, but even if he is very good, solo he can not hurt me/us). I mean hurt enough to knock out one out of game. And if we see strong CV against us we play with less "freedom" and more as close team.

Usually CV goes for softer targets, killing solo players, never trying to force true heavy defended area, by that time game is won or lost.....AAA on 3 ship is still strong....

[mtm78]

Wait, you're acting your whole balance discussion on playing in divisions? 

[veslingr]

43 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Ok, let's. 

 

Now I'm not an expert on using the maple syrup data so I might have screwed it up completely here, so take all of this with a grain of salt. Also the data I got is somewhat old and I didn't know how to get aggregate data (somewhat easily) since the data seems to come in segments of player win%. I used the 55-64 bracket of good players for these graphs.

 

In short: I MIGHT HAVE SCREWED UP EVERYTHING WHEN I INTERPRETED THE DATA AND WHAT IT ACTUALLY REPRESENTS.

 

Let's start with damage / spotting:

 

  Hide contents

 

Carriers are pretty close to the top in damage, but spotting is definitely something I would classify as "having significant influence looking at a single stat".

 

Next is the kills per match and K/D -ratio:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Again we have a single stat that might be classified as having significant influence, since beside being close to the top in kills per battle, carriers almost never die themselves.

 

Now we hit something carriers are not very good at: cap control

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

DDs are the absolute masters of cap control, which is not very surprising. Carriers are especially bad at capping, but they do compensate by being the absolute best at decapping - which puts their total values in the general ballpark of cruisers, which are somewhat above battleships.

 

Then the one category carriers absolutely don't do much of: tanking damage

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Note that this specifically doesn't mean carriers are vulnerable, they just don't do a lot of tanking. Also since these are T10 carriers, this also doesn't mean they are incapable of tanking. Under some circumstances they can be very hard to kill due to the armored deck and virtual invulnerability to dot damage. What this does mean is that carriers don't do much in terms of sharing the bruden of taking hits. In reality the most interesting thing I noticed in this graph is the minimal advantage Salem has over Des Moines.

 

Even though this is a bit of doubling up on survival (due to k/d -ratio already being presented earlier, I'll post the survival rates as well because they are interesting:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

The carriers are obviously something of an outlier in this category as expected (and I would classify this as a single statistic where carriers stand out), but what is really interesting to me is how little difference there is between the rest of the classes. It would be interesting to compare survival rates of BBs and DDs to the data sets of less capable players.

 

I don't think there's much interesting stuff in the rest of the data, win% only measures inter-class balance due to mirror matchmaking and average XP isn't completely comparable so that it could be used for for example measuring the effectiveness of damage dealt (to BB vs DD for example).

Hmm mate...not sigle CV does over 100k dmg..infact top average DMG CV is Haku with 80 k..and on your chart all 3 are over 100 k....something is wrong here

[CptBarney]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

i just do not agree here, never ever had problem with solo CV against us (in division where he spots for his team mates on good position, yes it is hell, but even if he is very good, solo he can not hurt me/us). I mean hurt enough to knock out one out of game. And if we see strong CV against us we play with less "freedom" and more as close team.

Usually CV goes for softer targets, killing solo players, never trying to force true heavy defended area, by that time game is won or lost.....AAA on 3 ship is still strong....

You havent played since april.

 

So at this point your either trolling or delusional.

 

Just stop.

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, mtm78 said:

Wait, you're acting your whole balance discussion on playing in divisions? 

yes. Team stops CV.....you can argue it is wrong, but i think it is good idea.

If solo ship could stop CV...what if yu have 4-5 that kinds of ship all over the map....what cv could do? Wide map immunity and no striking zone? I am not for that.....in the end, this is team game...so wanting teamplay is not outrageous idea.

[1MajorKoenig]

45 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Just because that applies to you doesn't mean it applies to everyone else.

 

Ranked out in 16 battles, 3 losses (one *insert known potato clan here* div, one all BBs suiciding, one gigantic throw). High caliber was earned in 14/16 matches. Was never in danger of losing a star.

Balans.

 

Yea sure thing - that’s exactly why GZ tops all stat boards. Now it makes sense to me. But hey - who cares about facts as long as there are feeeelings.

 

And please remind me - I care about your amount of seal clubber battles exactly why?

[WingedHussar_Adler]

3 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

You havent played since april.

 

So at this point your either trolling or delusional.

 

Just stop.

can you stop with this idiotic discussion please? Better now? Happy?

Can you now try even to dispute some of my data or...?

[CptBarney]

Just now, WingedHussar_Adler said:

can you stop with this idiotic discussion please?

Can you stop ironically continuing it?