CV Rework Discussion

[veslingr]

3 hours ago, AndyHill said:

If you want to evaluate CV stats to other classes, try checking out the combination of spotting, damage and survival rate.

 

The main problem with carriers isn't their OPness, it's the harm they do to the gameplay by spotting and crabbing all over everyone. 

 

PS. If you're having trouble with Conquerors, try shooting back. 

Survival rate is ussles stats. Anybody can survive game. 

 

On other note if we would use combination of stats for all ships how we would ponder it?

 

Dmg

Spot

Tank

Cap

Decap

 

 

Let's say we have 5 top stats. Let's put ponder to them and see what we get. 

 

For sure stats do not show CVs significant influence if we look single stats as dmg or such

 

I would ponder it like this

 

Dmg -50%

Spot - 20%

Tank- 10%

Cap - 10%

Decap - 10%

 

[Beaker71]

Regrinding some more DD lines, and just had the misfortune to play against a Hosho with a 85% win rate that completely dominated the game. Nice going WG.

 

FUBAR

[Yedwy]

5 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

Regrinding some more DD lines, and just had the misfortune to play against a Hosho with a 85% win rate that completely dominated the game. Nice going WG.

 

FUBAR

Balanz da? 

[veslingr]

24 minutes ago, Beaker71 said:

Regrinding some more DD lines, and just had the misfortune to play against a Hosho with a 85% win rate that completely dominated the game. Nice going WG.

 

FUBAR

Competitive T4 scene  is totally ruined. 

[AndyHill]

2 hours ago, veslingr said:

Survival rate is ussles stats. Anybody can survive game. 

Except that they can't and don't. Carriers have a hefty lead in survivability (I'm going by memory, can't be bothered to actually check so I might be off) with about 74-75% at high tier. They are virtually immortal.

 

2 hours ago, veslingr said:

For sure stats do not show CVs significant influence if we look single stats as dmg or such

 

I would ponder it like this

 

Dmg -50%

Spot - 20%

Tank- 10%

Cap - 10%

Decap - 10%

Well again off the top of my head: 

Dmg - Carriers will be very close to top at high tiers, especially if you leave out steel ships and such rarities. You would also need to look at effective damage, since any dmg done to DDs is going to be more valuable than BB farming.

Spot - Carriers are completely in a class of their own - and basically make games worse for everyone by removing concealment play possibilities.

Tank - Carriers don't do much of, they don't die either, though. My Midway is roughly 1/3 of TX cruisers when it comes to tanking. Shima is pretty close, though, and the more shooty-bang-bang DDs are somewhat higher.

Cap - Not much for carriers.

Decap - If my memory serves me right, carriers are great at this. My Midway is comparable to DM, Mossie and Mino whereas Wooster is a bit higher.

 

This is how WG's own metrics valuated the different classes earlier in the summer: 

 

[Capra76]

16 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

Well again off the top of my head: 

Dmg - Carriers will be very close to top at high tiers, especially if you leave out steel ships and such rarities. You would also need to look at effective damage, since any dmg done to DDs is going to be more valuable than BB farming.

Spot - Carriers are completely in a class of their own - and basically make games worse for everyone by removing concealment play possibilities.

Tank - Carriers don't do much of, they don't die either, though. My Midway is roughly 1/3 of TX cruisers when it comes to tanking. Shima is pretty close, though, and the more shooty-bang-bang DDs are somewhat higher.

Cap - Not much for carriers.

Decap - If my memory serves me right, carriers are great at this. My Midway is comparable to DM, Mossie and Mino whereas Wooster is a bit higher.

 

 

Perhaps more importantly CV can adjust their role to suit the tactical situation on an almost moment by moment basis, thus:

• Dmg - can focus on this;
• spot - unparalleled ability;
• tank - unusual but can be done;
• cap - can be done, especially late game;
• Decap - as you say, one of the strongest tools;

and this is perhaps what makes CV uniquely powerful, they can be a DD, a cruiser or a BB all at the same time and depending upon what the situation requires.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, AndyHill said:

This is how WG's own metrics valuated the different classes earlier in the summer: 

How is the efficiency calculated?

[AndyHill]

I don't know exactly what the scoring criteria is, I'm not even sure if it has been published. If it has, it'll probably be in the summer cc summit materials.

[MAD_3R_Marauder]

15 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That's why I think, that people have a complete wrong view. They go always with what a single ship can do against another single ship. But it's a team game. And one ship type don't have to be fully equal to another ship type. A CV can be stronger than other ship types.

It's a team game in name only.

Where are the tools for actual team-play?

Where it VOIP for the team, so it can communicate/coordinate?

Where is the lobby, to make up a plan pre-match?

 

Clan-Battle (never played it, since I'm not in a clan), is where actual team-play is at. Random is a game of a bunch of single-players.

 

P.s. MW:O has done a _lot_ of stupid stuff and has a _horrible_ reputation for having an insanely toxic community. It also has VOIP for the team and in almost a year I played, I have gotten one, perhaps two matches with ONE a-hole spamming voice-chat (same with WoWs, btw, where, in my experience, toxic chat is rather the exception, not the rule), so it CAN be done and no, there won't be someone screaming at you every match, all match long.

 

15 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Almost every game with different classes in PvP have their different purposes. What can a Healer do in a 1vs1 in an RPG-PvP game? What can a Supporter do in a Moba? What can a medic do against tank?

That a different roles

See above

Remember that Leroy Jenkins video?

Remember how the team-leader tried to organize and plan the fight until that famous/infamous moment?

That's how the start of a team-game-match is supposed to be.

 

16 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I would actually like, if they don'T return automatically, hehe

Panzer General 1 (or 2?) did that. You forgot to fly your fighter/bomber squad back to an air-base before running out of fuel --> dead squad  :)

 

 

[CptBarney]

2 hours ago, MAD_3R_Marauder said:

P.s. MW:O has done a _lot_ of stupid stuff and has a _horrible_ reputation for having an insanely toxic community. It also has VOIP for the team and in almost a year I played, I have gotten one, perhaps two matches with ONE a-hole spamming voice-chat (same with WoWs, btw, where, in my experience, toxic chat is rather the exception, not the rule), so it CAN be done and no, there won't be someone screaming at you every match, all match long.
 

 

 

Mechwarrior online has one of the least toxic communities i've been in, so i have no clue where your getting that from, also voice chat is semi common in MWO unlike here due to how terrible their inbuilt voice chat system is compared to other games.

 

Regardless of what you think it is a team based game, because the game revolves around team's and has some team utilities to enable your team to win or have an easier time at winning. You dont need a lobby or VOIP for team-based gameplay. just a working brain, some bloody common sense and skill. You can easily formulate plans in chat even if it isn't the most ideal way of doing things. And yes it makes it easier to communicate and formulate plans but most peeps use discord or teamspeak for that outside the game.

 

And frankly in games like league of legends you can play solo so by your definition they aren't team based games at all.

 

 

[El2aZeR]

Just a reminder what issues WG identified with RTS CVs btw.

 

 

Objectively speaking:

High difficulty - arguably still true as average playerbase does not comprehend anything but ezmode

Low popularity - popularity now similar to RTS

High impact - it is possible to reach solo WRs higher than RTS now

AA system - unlike before impact of AA completely dependent on CV player, surface ship has no influence whatsoever

Disconnect from gameplay - CVs are more disconnected than ever before, not having a single active team utility while not engaging in combat with the opposing CVs either

AA builds/skills worthless - now even more worthless than ever before, not due to low popularity of CVs but because the increase in AA is useless

 

10/10 total success camrade.

[mtm78]

9 hours ago, AndyHill said:

This is how WG's own metrics valuated the different classes earlier in the summer: 

 

7 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

How is the efficiency calculated?

 

^^

 

Those graphs are like WG claiming only 30% of ammunition is gold ammo in tanks. 

7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Objectively speaking:

 

They missed the other problem they once identified and yet never came back on 'fixing' ... whatever happened after WG came out claiming battleships were becoming an issue and that they lived to long.. well reework happened.

 

I want dmg distribution charts from prior to REEwork and now, and then WG can tell me more about the X% gold ammo in tank about how they 'fixed' that issue. 

[veslingr]

9 hours ago, AndyHill said:

Except that they can't and don't. Carriers have a hefty lead in survivability (I'm going by memory, can't be bothered to actually check so I might be off) with about 74-75% at high tier. They are virtually immortal.

 

Well again off the top of my head: 

Dmg - Carriers will be very close to top at high tiers, especially if you leave out steel ships and such rarities. You would also need to look at effective damage, since any dmg done to DDs is going to be more valuable than BB farming.

Spot - Carriers are completely in a class of their own - and basically make games worse for everyone by removing concealment play possibilities.

Tank - Carriers don't do much of, they don't die either, though. My Midway is roughly 1/3 of TX cruisers when it comes to tanking. Shima is pretty close, though, and the more shooty-bang-bang DDs are somewhat higher.

Cap - Not much for carriers.

Decap - If my memory serves me right, carriers are great at this. My Midway is comparable to DM, Mossie and Mino whereas Wooster is a bit higher.

 

This is how WG's own metrics valuated the different classes earlier in the summer: 

 

Dont do "on top of your head" when i did post actual stats couple post up ....on top DMG dealer first CV is on 10 spot. So no it is not close to top...it is 10-th. 

Also if you did bother to look at stats you would see that Stalingrad (as steel ship) has more played games than Hakuryu which is top CV dmg dealer (ot 10.th spot) so steel ships are not rarity anmore they are esential part of this game and most players have couple of them.

 

i will post here again stats, so think to reconsider your post WITH ACTUAL STATS

 

 

[El2aZeR]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

so steel ships are not rarity anmore

 

Or CVs are just that unpopular.

[Asakka]

Oh damn, this thread is still alive. Its like an undead that cant die 

[mcboernester]

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Or CVs are just that unpopular.

Yeah because they are hard to play and have no influence while the AA works very well. Oh wait

Spoiler

 

[veslingr]

7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Or CVs are just that unpopular.

I do not thik so.

 

Stalingrad  - 463 game

Daring - 283

haku - 361

Kremlin - 1444

 

I would say - master race that dominate ALLL TYPE of charts is THE MOST PLAYED and BEST PERFORMING ships in WOWs - BBS

 

in top DMG we have BBs on 1., 2., 3., 4,. 6, place

In battle played they have total domination.

 

my conclusion, all other classes for average player are bad, they can not perform in it, BB are fortress that every 28 seconds sends 150.000 k potential alpha from 20+ km.

 

yeah.....if we wanna talk about what dominate game play right now we do not need to look much further, 

 

[CptBarney]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

I do not thik so.

 

Stalingrad  - 463 game

Daring - 283

haku - 361

Kremlin - 1444

 

I would say - master race that dominate ALLL TYPE of charts is THE MOST PLAYED and BEST PERFORMING ships in WOWs - BBS

 

in top DMG we have BBs on 1., 2., 3., 4,. 6, place

In battle played they have total domination.

 

my conclusion, all other classes for average player are bad, they can not perform in it, BB are fortress that every 28 seconds sends 150.000 k potential alpha from 20+ km.

 

yeah.....if we wanna talk about what dominate game play right now we do not need to look much further, 

 

Quite litteraly contridictated yourself in your own post.

 

Since there are ships there that have only recently come out and can only be acquired through special means (smolensk, bougonge, thunderer, kleber, etc.)

 

And it's obvious BB's are the most popular ship class.

 

What is the point of your post again? Or even arguement at this point?

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, veslingr said:

I do not thik so.

 

Well, I highly doubt Daring is the most popular DD while Haku is likely the most popular T10 CV due to being the most powerful one.

And even then Haku has less than 100 players more.

 

So that doesn't say much imo.

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, CptBarney said:

Quite litteraly contridictated yourself in your own post.

 

Since there are ships there that have only recently come out and can only be acquired through special means (smolensk, bougonge, thunderer, kleber, etc.)

 

And it's obvious BB's are the most popular ship class.

 

What is the point of your post again? Or even arguement at this point?

That hakuryu is not unpopular becasue also DDs and Cruisers have sam low amount of played games in contradiction of BBs ....concentrate man...it is all clear

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Well, I highly doubt Daring is the most popular DD while Haku is likely the most popular T10 CV due to being the most powerful one.

And even then Haku has less than 100 players more.

 

So that doesn't say much imo.

I will sort Tx per games played so we will see.....thx god myple is exprtable to excell and we can all check fast.

[mcboernester]

7 minutes ago, veslingr said:

I will sort Tx per games played so we will see.....thx god myple is exprtable to excell and we can all check fast.

 

Numbers from last week, based on marple

though i cannot tell how langley(old) sneaked in there..

 

The higher the Tier, the lower the player numbers. Why? cause 4 and 6 are a sh*tshow right now when it comes down to AA. I honestly feel the same way on 8 and 10 but eh... 

 

For comparison most played on the other classes:

BB = bismarck

CA = smolensk

DD = shima

 

I would also love to see how many bb players are german since all top played ships are made out of Kruppstahl while being the worst bbs you can play right now. 

[CptBarney]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

That hakuryu is not unpopular becasue also DDs and Cruisers have sam low amount of played games in contradiction of BBs ....concentrate man...it is all clear

And several other ships are more popular than haku?

 

Again what is the point of this? Haku is barely more popular than the Daring and the Daring is more popular than the Audacity.

 

Already a few of the newer ships have more battles played compared to CV's. I also only get around 1 CV every 4-8 games if im unlucky (sometimes going without after 10 games).

 

And the other newer ships (less than a month old) are already starting to play catch up. The NTC ships won't accumilate a huge amount of battles, since regrinding lines is a pain too be honest.

 

CV's aren't that popular no matter how you try to spin it. If wargaming buffs them again then you will see a surge in popularity again.

 

Tier 4 are popular because miss hosho is soo bloody easy to play with, even against tier 5 ships.

 

Also colbert is the only cruiser there with a low number of games, mainly due to the insane requirements just to get it, the other cruisers have considerably more.

[veslingr]

2 minutes ago, mcboernester said:

 

Numbers from last week, based on marple

though i cannot tell how langley(old) sneaked in there..

 

The higher the Tier, the lower the player numbers. Why? cause 4 and 6 are a sh*tshow right now when it comes down to AA. I honestly feel the same way on 8 and 10 but eh... 

 

For comparison most played on the other classes:

BB = bismarck

CA = smolensk

DD = shima

 

I would also love to see how many bb players are german since all top played ships are made out of Kruppstahl while being the worst bbs you can play right now. 

i am focused on TX...did not pull for whole range, sorted by number of players

[mcboernester]

5 minutes ago, veslingr said:

i am focused on TX...did not pull for whole range, sorted by number of players

try the flash version, its easier. had some trouble when exporting to excel

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/ShipAvgList/ShipAvgList.html