CV Rework Discussion

[El2aZeR]

8 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

All that while having a gamestate that is ... more acceptable for the average player.

 

Is it though?

According to the chat in the matches I play I'm making people uninstall left and right. 

 

Seriously though, if it were widely accepted we wouldn't see complaints popping up everywhere.

 

2 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

How far ahead is El2 and the other CV unicums?

 

Say hi to 90+% WR since 0.8.7.

 

I'm probably the reason E got pulled. 

 

11 minutes ago, veslingr said:

this game, as most games are turning around average player because in normal Gauss distribution they are the majority, majority of income, majority of player base.....and offcourse you mold your game according to that majority.

 

This is actually not how f2p games work since the vast majority will never pay anything.

Instead of building a core playerbase out of the veterans and most dedicated players though WG seems to have chosen to make quick cash off of the more... speshul players instead.

[veslingr]

20 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

True. Only when exploits (or simply skilled players that put more effort into learning the game) get too far ahead or when bad players get too far behind you need to change something.

 

And the question is: How far ahead is El2 and the other CV unicums? If WG deems that they are indeed not too far ahead, then the overall game state can be deemed ... balanced. Regardless how often unicums say the mechanic is broken (which it is). But as soon as WG deems that now they are too far ahead, something will change.

the real question is not how far they are ahead (you pointed out that one post before) but how they affect majority feels of game...and i can tell you with statistically certainty that average player get affected by those uniqum as often as he gets affected by detonation. 

El2aZeR had 112 CV games in last 21 days it is 5 games per day....and it was 50 -50% cnance that he was on your team....so basically you have chance of meeting him 2 times per day as oposition....lets say there are 200 players like him, you have 400 games of chance to meet him per day...in those 21 days there were couple of thousands games per day..so your chance to meet player of that cliber on oposite side in between 1%....total irelevant for game balance.

[JaiFoh]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

 

 

Say hi to 90+% WR since 0.8.7.

 

I'm probably the reason E got pulled. 

 

You are!!!

But you are not wrong, i have had to take a mandated break due to a House move and my gaming laptop exploding but when i steal the PC back from the wife i get a few games.
and in-spite of being rusty as all heck i took Enterprise out, managed to do 95K damage, two kills and topped the leaderboard in a T10 game. 
in 5 games of taking Enterprise out she feels like when i am taking out Kamikaze. 
Enterprise has Joined the Kamikaze sisters, Kutuzov, Nikoli, Ceaser and Belfast as the OP ships

(don't get me started on Smolensk)

[Mr_Glitter]

4 minutes ago, veslingr said:

proper usage of sling is so rare that (and to be honest i think of it as exploit not wanted mechanic) that it does not change global thing, where proper usage of sling is almost nonexistant.....

Yes it's rare, but it's especially strong versus stationary radar cruisers. If you know how to use Slingshot you're even able to reliably hit moving ships. 

And if I remember it right, Slingshot is not counted as an exploit by WG. 

It's wanted muh cinematic gameplay. 

8 minutes ago, veslingr said:

and Continous AAA from 3 ships will melt your Saipan 6 planes after one drop.

Just no. My planes will only melt before hitting the target if I collect Flak bubbles. I will lose 2 to 3 yes, but it depends heavily on the enemy ship type. 

12 minutes ago, veslingr said:

i am agains no flying zones.

And I want counterplay against CVs besides stupid blobbing or wasting smoke. 

 

[veslingr]

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

 

 

This is actually not how f2p games work since the vast majority will never pay anything.

Instead of building a core playerbase out of the veterans and most dedicated players though WG seems to have chosen to make quick cash off of the more... speshul players instead.

but there is no single link/proff/indicator that better players spend more money in game...so larger the base of players is large the chance of money from them...and lagrest base of players are - average players.

[Allied_Winter]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

Is it though?

According to the chat in the matches I play I'm making people uninstall left and right

Well ... you will players that rage whenever is a CV in the match, that's less a problem of players like you who make the best of a CV but simply the CV itself.

 

And apparently WG is willing to live with that (probably for a variety of reasons), only when WG is forced to pull more CVs that you play from the shop it'll become a problem for them.

 

 

But I see, I should be playing more Enterprise. I mean do I really care about an OP ship when I'm the one playing it?

 

 

 

[veslingr]

Just now, Mr_CVed said:

 

And I want counterplay against CVs besides stupid blobbing or wasting smoke. 

 

we had that....crying lobby killed RTS stye of play with fighters

[veslingr]

I pulled out stats form EU server, last 2 months, TX. - Myple

we have this situation.

 

TOP 10 by WR we have 1 cv on 10-th place

TOP 10 by DMG we have 1 CV on 9-th place

TOP 10 by EXP we have 2 CVs on 7 and 8-th place

 

does this looks like CV domination?

[El2aZeR]

19 minutes ago, veslingr said:

and i can tell you with statistically certainty that average player get affected by those uniqum as often as he gets affected by detonation.

 

And yet, does their rarity make detonations any less frustrating?

Bad experiences tend to stay with people longer than good ones. Hence why everyone was complaining about the 9000 apm inhuman crossdropping RTS CV and never about the can't-even-find-the-alt-key auto-dropping potato.

 

Or alternatively it is rare to meet a cheater in a game with a good anti-cheat system but that doesn't make it acceptable.

 

13 minutes ago, veslingr said:

but there is no single link/proff/indicator that better players spend more money in game...so larger the base of players is large the chance of money from them...and lagrest base of players are - average players.

 

Generally speaking the more invested you are in effort and time the more willing you'll be to spend money on it.

Meanwhile someone who goes full rush B every single time just to look at some fancy explosions and gunfire is unlikely to ever invest anything.

 

This is actually a proven principle in f2p games. However it can be argued that the potato who learned nothing over 15k games is just as invested as the most super of super unicums. Deciding which group to cater to tends to decide the longevity of the game. Games like Counter-Strike and StarCraft catered to their most skilled players, hence why their original versions are still played today.

WG meanwhile enjoy the advantage of having a monopoly with WoWs, so they can pretty much do whatever they want and choose which group they want to cater to without any pressure.

[mtm78]

22 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

According to the chat in the matches I play I'm making people uninstall left and right. 

But aren't you asking them if they are having fun when you drop them? I mean that kinda skews their natural response don't you think

 

 

 

 

 

[1MajorKoenig]

14 minutes ago, veslingr said:

but there is no single link/proff/indicator that better players spend more money in game...so larger the base of players is large the chance of money from them...and lagrest base of players are - average players.

 

In fact there is a correlation between time spent in the game and money spent. There are some people who never pay but it is a pretty easy calculation. Make people play more and money will flow. Combine that with the fact that WOWS has a pretty stable veteran player base and struggles to attract additional/new players you will see that veterans need to be catered for. 

 

Problem: The playerbase is pretty diverse in opinions so you won’t find a common ground that makes everyone happy. 

[veslingr]

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

In fact there is a correlation between time spent in the game and money spent. There are some people who never pay but it is a pretty easy calculation. Make people play more and money will flow. Combine that with the fact that WOWS has a pretty stable veteran player base and struggles to attract additional/new players you will see that veterans need to be catered for. 

 

Problem: The playerbase is pretty diverse in opinions so you won’t find a common ground that makes everyone happy. 

you are mixing veterans with good players- There are alot of players with 10 k battles and sub 50% WR.

 

Yes, veterans needed to be cared for, i do not argue here, but if we talk to care abut 5% of Unqums vs 60%-70% of average players.....i feel that those 60% do majoritiy of funding by sheer volume of them. 

 

and in those 60% averages you have alot of veterans.

 

 

[Sunleader]

3 hours ago, veslingr said:

Do you know that Maple miss around 30% of data because it only watch solo games. Not single division game is calculated. 

 

Also comparing High tier is apsolutly wrong  you compare t9 ships with t 8 there. CV miss one tier. 

 

Also looking exp is bad. Some of modifiers are taking into acxount and CV have highest percentage of premium ship compared to silver ones. From t8 to t10 CV have 10 ships out of whoom 4 are premiums. It is 40%

 

And last part is totaly different story. 

 

1.

Irrelevant. Because from the get go not everyone has a Division to Carry him around.

2.

CVs cover 2 Tiers. Thats Intended by Design. I think its Stupid as well. But its how the System Currently Works.

3.

CV and BB have the Exact same Exp Factor. Sorry to tell you. But CVs doing so much more Exp than BBs actually Proves they do vastly more in the Match. As they get the Exact same Exp Reward as BBs for the same Actions.

4.

Yes. But it makes you Untrustworthy.

 

 

[veslingr]

3 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

Irrelevant. Because from the get go not everyone has a Division to Carry him around.

2.

CVs cover 2 Tiers. Thats Intended by Design. I think its Stupid as well. But its how the System Currently Works.

3.

CV and BB have the Exact same Exp Factor. Sorry to tell you. But CVs doing so much more Exp than BBs actually Proves they do vastly more in the Match. As they get the Exact same Exp Reward as BBs for the same Actions.

4.

Yes. But it makes you Untrustworthy.

 

 

myple 2 month stats - TX

 

TOP 10 by WR we have 1 cv on 10-th place

TOP 10 by DMG we have 1 CV on 9-th place

TOP 10 by EXP we have 2 CVs on 7 and 8-th place

 

can you point me to CV domination? Can you point me to CV domination in EXP over BBS? (still think EXP is bad indictor where premium camos and/or flags [edited] things up)

[Allied_Winter]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

And yet, does their rarity make detonations any less frustrating?

Bad experiences tend to stay with people longer than good ones. Hence why everyone was complaining about the 9000 apm inhuman crossdropping RTS CV and never about the can't-even-find-the-alt-key auto-dropping potato.

 

Or alternatively it is rare to meet a cheater in a game with a good anti-cheat system but that doesn't make it acceptable.

 

With regards to detonation: Probably not (although I only chuckle when I get detonated, I can't be bothered to get frustrated about randomness). But as long as it's overall ... a rare enough occurence, I'd say it's ok (though I know that 'rare enough' is considered subjective and thus different opinions on WHAT is rare enough arise).

 

With regards to cheats ... well... yes it does. Take highways for example: It is not allwoed to go above a certain speed and there are regular checks for that. Usually punishments follow en suite. But does that mean you will get all speeders? No.

 

Effort vs. Reward. You make the laws and punishments harsh enough to deter most people from speeding and/or get the most out of those that you catch speeding, but you'll never catch everybody speeding (unless you do a surveillance on everybody which comes with a pretty high effort on your end).

 

With regards to CVs: You make the skill ceiling high enough so that only a few will get there, yet the majority is satisfied with what they get below the skill ceiling.

 

So WG simply goes the most economical route. If a few players get frustrated and rage quit/uninstall, let them. We have data that shows them leaving doesn't impact our overall cashflow and/or shows that most of them come back after X months.

[1MajorKoenig]

23 minutes ago, Mr_CVed said:

And I want counterplay against CVs besides stupid blobbing or wasting smoke. 

 

Ah finally the good old counterplay point. WG is famous to master this piece superbly since years.

 

With CVs - well they at least tried:

- Auto AA so you don’t even get distracted 

- Sector Button with Auto damage built in (would love that on a BB against DD...?)

- cover each other and overlapping auras (and to a lesser extend clouds)

- ship borne fighters which are pretty strong surprisingly 

 

 

Now: compare that to HE spamming RN monkey BBs. What is the counterplay there? Hide from battle? 

 

Or Subs - well let’s see :-)

[Sunleader]

4 minutes ago, veslingr said:

myple 2 month stats

 

TOP 10 by WR we have 1 cv on 10-th place

TOP 10 by DMG we have 1 CV on 9-th place

TOP 10 by EXP we have 2 CVs on 7 and 8-th place

 

can you point me to CV domination?

 

Sigh...

 

1.

2 Month Data is Irrelevant here. Because 2 Month Data Actually Includes the 0.8.5 Update and 0.8.6 Update were CVs were far better Balanced.

2.

Winrate is Completely Irrelevant as well. Because 1 CV is always Fighting 1 CV. Thanks to which this Stat does tell us nothing about the Power of the Class. It only tells us the Difference between Ships inside the Same Class.

And even there WR is extremely Unreliable.

3.

Single Ship Statistics tell you pretty much nothing. Because they are Extremely Heavily Influenced on the Balance in between the Ships. Kremlin for Example is Promised to Stick out. Because it is currently Vastly Superior to the other T10 BBs against which it is Matched.

But among the T10 CVs no CV Sticks out from the other T10 CVs like that.

 

These Statistics tell you that Kremlin is far better at Fighting Grosser Kurfürst. Than Midway is at Fighting Hakuryu.

But in terms of how Strong Midway is against Kremlin. Its telling you absolutely nothing.

[veslingr]

6 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Sigh...

 

1.

2 Month Data is Irrelevant here. Because 2 Month Data Actually Includes the 0.8.5 Update and 0.8.6 Update were CVs were far better Balanced.

2.

Winrate is Completely Irrelevant as well. Because 1 CV is always Fighting 1 CV. Thanks to which this Stat does tell us nothing about the Power of the Class. It only tells us the Difference between Ships inside the Same Class.

And even there WR is extremely Unreliable.

3.

Single Ship Statistics tell you pretty much nothing. Because they are Extremely Heavily Influenced on the Balance in between the Ships. Kremlin for Example is Promised to Stick out. Because it is currently Vastly Superior to the other T10 BBs against which it is Matched.

But among the T10 CVs no CV Sticks out from the other T10 CVs like that.

 

These Statistics tell you that Kremlin is far better at Fighting Grosser Kurfürst. Than Midway is at Fighting Hakuryu.

But in terms of how Strong Midway is against Kremlin. Its telling you absolutely nothing.

oh oh...now when i used next set of data from nex source you dismiss date in general? We should go by feeling? But you were williing to use data like High, Middle, Low Tier without looking what is composed into that data?
And 2 months is very relevantt, nothig epicly cahnged in those to moths.

 

 

but i will now put shorter data lets see there if we will see CV domination,

I mean, this domination should be seen somewhere in statistic, right?

 

P.S.

now all classes have Mirror MM. 

[mtm78]

10 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Now: compare that to HE spamming RN monkey BBs. What is the counterplay there? Hide from battle? 

 

There is counterplay to everything in this game, except CV's. That includes HE spammers. 

11 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

- Auto AA so you don’t even get distracted 

DFAA change to just buffing dmg is the WORST part, removing tactical aspects of the game.  Old DFAA actually was trying to encourage teamwork at least. 

[1MajorKoenig]

3 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

DFAA actually was trying to encourage teamwork at least. 

 

That is true.

 

4 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

There is counterplay to everything in this game, except CV's. That includes HE spammers.

 

Normal CL and DD yes. But BB HE spam? What is your counter?

[El2aZeR]

7 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

But BB HE spam? What is your counter?

 

Positioning and concealment for starters?

 

27 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

So WG simply goes the most economical route. If a few players get frustrated and rage quit/uninstall, let them. We have data that shows them leaving doesn't impact our overall cashflow and/or shows that most of them come back after X months.

 

Honestly I question whether the rework has been financially successful at all. Premium CVs clearly aren't flying off the shelf and WG lost plenty of trust with veteran players.

Leaving that as the status quo can't be in their interest.

[veslingr]

14 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Sigh...

 

1.

2 Month Data is Irrelevant here. Because 2 Month Data Actually Includes the 0.8.5 Update and 0.8.6 Update were CVs were far better Balanced.

2.

Winrate is Completely Irrelevant as well. Because 1 CV is always Fighting 1 CV. Thanks to which this Stat does tell us nothing about the Power of the Class. It only tells us the Difference between Ships inside the Same Class.

And even there WR is extremely Unreliable.

3.

Single Ship Statistics tell you pretty much nothing. Because they are Extremely Heavily Influenced on the Balance in between the Ships. Kremlin for Example is Promised to Stick out. Because it is currently Vastly Superior to the other T10 BBs against which it is Matched.

But among the T10 CVs no CV Sticks out from the other T10 CVs like that.

 

These Statistics tell you that Kremlin is far better at Fighting Grosser Kurfürst. Than Midway is at Fighting Hakuryu.

But in terms of how Strong Midway is against Kremlin. Its telling you absolutely nothing.

here are 1 WEEK data - myple - TX - 1 week is very shot period but you wanted data after patch

 

we do not see big variation from 2 months data....as expected nothing big changed from 2 months data

 

TOP 10 by WR we have 1 cv on 8-th place

TOP 10 by DMG we have 1 CV on 10-th place

TOP 10 by EXP we have 2 CVs on 4 and 5-th place

[1MajorKoenig]

12 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Positioning and concealment for starters?

 

Too bad if Conq has better concealment than most of her targets - and positioning... well kind of the only way. Meaning hiding. Pure excitement. However I am not here to complain about Conqueror although I find her design toxic and not promoting dynamic gameplay.

 

What I would prefer against such a ship though: automatic CIWS which shoot down Conq’s shells, potentially a button which improves the defensive effect and if we are really crazy even a plane Consumable which could greatly reduce the impact of the incoming attack. If I further knew that I have roughly two minutes to the next strike - now that would be awesome. Ah wait 

[Mr_Glitter]

30 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

With CVs - well they at least tried:

- Auto AA so you don’t even get distracted 

- Sector Button with Auto damage built in (would love that on a BB against DD...?)

- cover each other and overlapping auras (and to a lesser extend clouds)

- ship borne fighters which are pretty strong surprisingly 

Do you think manual controlled AA would help against a CV? 

 

You're not able to hit a DD with your BB main guns? Not speaking about up to 12.3km secondary gun range which hits automatically. 

 

Already nerfed overlapping auras and dps from multiple ships?  defensiv AA consumable is nerfed as well. Teamplay anyone? 

 

Ship borne fighters are not a real threat, they're just a bit annoying. 

[mcboernester]

WG doesnt seem to plan anymore big modifications here, so yeah. 

 

From a purple PoV I can tell you that CVs are utterly broken since Day 1 of the Betatest last year based on their core concept, and that none of those tweaks regarding aa / speed / dmg was able or will be to change that. Ppl actively denied that and always told me "you just want your op cvs back"  At one Point they buffed AA so hard that most CVs just quit and we dropped below RTS numbers, now we are slightly above while the AA is a joke right now. Many good players dont even see any Reason to mount def AA for example since it just doesn't help anymore.

 

Guess what, back in 2018 i couldn't just dive into a Republique, Des Moines with active AA and a yamato + montana  So yeah, guess i was right after all