CV Rework Discussion

[veslingr]

20 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

So you're telling me E was pulled from the store because of how bad players performed in her? Oh please.

 

 

Again, irrelevant.

 

 

Ah, but they left out plenty of info, didn't they?

Including how said data is weighted.

and kaga is still here, but look how top players outperform Big E in it or perform just the same.

 

so i do not agreethey remove it because of performance

[veslingr]

10 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Not Really.

In 0.8.5 it was Actually Working extremely Good.

If Enemy Stayed Together CV could not really Attack them Properly.

BUT They could not really Attack the CV either.

 

So what happened was the Same Situation that ALL other Ships have as well. If no Good Opportunity was there. A CV either had to take the Risk of having his Squadron Deleted. Just like Ships have to take the Risk of being Deleted.

Or had to Wait for a Better Chance when Someone of the Enemy Team makes a Mistake.

 

And That was actually Fair.

 

 

Sorry. But the Current Situation is not Fair. The Current Situation is something that is Generally Enjoyed by People with no Real Life which have an Inferiority Complex and due to that need to be the King of Someone in a Game.

And this is Generally something that Everyone but the King Hates.

 

Thats why since the Update. WG has Gained about a Thousand CV Players Happily Sealclubbing People in Low Tier CVs. But at the same Time have lost 3 Thousand other Players which decided. Yeah Screw this. I am not Playing Fodder for some PEEEEEP which can just PEEEEEP me over and over again with nothing I can do about it.

 

 

And No. We Clearly dont Agree. But right now. Beyond T4 the CVs are not Happy either.

Because as I explained above. With Great Power comes Great Responsibility.

If your a CV in T8 then you HAVE TO carry the Match. And there these Players which just want to be Godmode without any Skill. Have a problem.

The Enemy has one of these Godmode Ships as well. And so they keep losing like Crazy and dont Play.

 

Thats why you got Twice as many Low Tier CVs which cannot Block each other. Than you got High Tier CVs which end up in a Direct Competition for Victory.

 

not true.....Conqueror will do 10k + salvo on ship no matter if he has 0 or 5 friends beside him. 

 

and about second part, today's CV just do not show a single sign of dominating battlefield. Not in DMG, not in PR, not in WR (and mirror MM is now spread across most classes).

[El2aZeR]

13 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I can only assume you are talking about their “influence”-KPI? No they did not disclose the weighting, just the input values. Arguably there won’t be a weighting everyone agrees 100% anyway so.

 

Or all data in general. If I remember correctly they only told us that they take bad and good player stats into account. They have not told us how such data is weighted.

 

12 minutes ago, veslingr said:

well it was not pulled out of shop because players were over performing in it. look at her stats....sitting strongly in middle. 

 

They did actually state that she is too strong, you know?

Something that has in fact gradually shown in her stats as other skilled players have started playing her.

 

7 minutes ago, veslingr said:

and kaga is still here, but look how top players outperform Big E in it

 

Your dataset is outdated.

[veslingr]

3 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Your dataset is outdated.

no idea, used it from WoWS stats, you have newer set?

 

also what has changed that puled Big E o ntop and downed kaga?...this set is from "new" CVs, excluding RTS version

[1MajorKoenig]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

If I remember correctly they only told us that they take bad and good player stats into account. They have not told us how such data is weighted.

 

They said they divide the player base into three groups which lets them check wether it is an easy ship or requires more skill (basically how close these groups are to each other). I think they also said that certain outliers are excluded - which is standard procedure in statistics. I think they showed some of these reports and how they look like. 

 

[Yedwy]

27 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Even if that would be true - what is WG doing different on cruisers and destroyers? Or aren’t they equally bad balanced in your opinion?

The difference is that in all those classes you deal damage to your attacker by firing back at him, in this a bot fires for you...

[1MajorKoenig]

13 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

The difference is that in all those classes you deal damage to your attacker by firing back at him, in this a bot fires for you...

 

I understand the differences between the classes but why do you think WG balances CVs different to other classes?

[Sunleader]

18 minutes ago, veslingr said:

not true.....Conqueror will do 10k + salvo on ship no matter if he has 0 or 5 friends beside him. 

 

and about second part, today's CV just do not show a single sign of dominating battlefield. Not in DMG, not in PR, not in WR (and mirror MM is now spread across most classes).

 

Yes and CV can do that too lol.

Conqueror can do this by Driving out of its Cover into Position to Attack the Enemy Fleet. And will then Take the Counterfire of the Entire Enemy Fleet.

So he will do a 10k Salvo and Eat 40-50k Damage.

 

The CV can do exactly the Same. He can Just Yolo his Squad into the Blob to Drop some Torpedoes in there. And the Squad will be Gone.

Thats how Fairness Works.

 

Right now. The CV does not Care. He can Drop anyone at anytime without any Risk whatsoever to himself.

 

 

Actually they Do.

Your just not Understanding the Data.

 

BBs mostly do Damage to BBs and Cruisers. So they get High Damage but Low Exp.

They also dont do any real Spotting or Capturing of Points. So they have High Damage. And well that is it.

 

Cruisers are doing Good Damage and do Good Exp as they mostly use their Support Abilities and alot of their Damage comes from Enemy Cruisers and DDs.

 

And DDs do the lowest Damage. But they Capture Points and do Spotting. Moreover. Their Damage is often from Enemy DDs. Thanks to which they get alot of Experience.

 

 

But CVs ?

CVs do as much Damage as Battleships. But they do it to ALL Classes. They can do this Damage Accurately to Decide a Battle as they See fit.

They on top do as much Spotting as DDs. And they can even keep Enemy DDs Spotted at will. Being able to Spot without any Risk to Themselves. Unlike the DD which has to Risk his Life to do this.

Did you know ?

Capturing the Base in a Death Match while the Enemy CV is Still Alive. Is nearly Impossible. Because even if the Entire Enemy Team is somewhere else. The CV can Reach you regardless of his own Position and can Ruin your Day.

CVs can do Literally EVERYTHING better than the other Classes with only one Exception. Which is Capturing Points.

But as they can Virtually Deny Point Capture and kill the DD doing it from the Enemy if they want to. Its not really a Matter.

 

 

So no Offense to you Mate.

But CVs are in Fact. Outperforming all other Classes.

That is a Fact and has been Proven Several Times.

 

 

[El2aZeR]

22 minutes ago, veslingr said:

no idea, used it from WoWS stats, you have newer set?

 

also what has changed that puled Big E o ntop and downed kaga?...this set is from "new" CVs, excluding RTS version

 

Use http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/index.html .

 

Nerfs for everyone, buffs for E both directly based on her "average performance" and relatively speaking.

There was also a reddit post fairly recently (aka like a month ago or so) that showed Enterprise is hilariously ahead in avg WR by a ridiculous margin across all servers. Can't find it for the life of me tho.

 

19 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

They said they divide the player base into three groups which lets them check wether it is an easy ship or requires more skill (basically how close these groups are to each other). I think they also said that certain outliers are excluded - which is standard procedure in statistics. I think they showed some of these reports and how they look like. 

 

Ah yes, now I remember.

Which btw inherently creates an issue with how reworked CVs compare to RTS ones since e.g. the player skill distribution is vastly different, so reworked CVs will inevitably be shown as weaker since average skill is lower.

 

And well, that still doesn't say what group is weighted more or whether they are weighted equally.

[Padds01]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Rather obvious when you consider how and why balancing changes have happened in this game.

 

Also funny that you bring up SC, a game that is in fact only balanced around pro players.

actually i picked Sc2 because of the amount of times i have seen blizzcon panel vids stating that was not how they did it

 

and it doesnt seem obvious if they were balancing against pro level players wouldnt you be finding flak and aa tuned to be balanced against players like you? 

 

 

 

 

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

actually i picked Sc2 because of the amount of times i have seen blizzcon panel vids stating that was not how they did it

 

and it doesnt seem obvious if they were balancing against pro level players wouldnt you be finding flak and aa tuned to be balanced against players like you? 

 

What is the saying? "Actions speak louder than words."

 

And they actually did that, you know? Until they realized they're ruining their investment in the rework with it.

Also flak is only supposed to punish bad players. It's a basic skill check.

[veslingr]

11 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Yes and CV can do that too lol.

Conqueror can do this by Driving out of its Cover into Position to Attack the Enemy Fleet. And will then Take the Counterfire of the Entire Enemy Fleet.

So he will do a 10k Salvo and Eat 40-50k Damage.

 

The CV can do exactly the Same. He can Just Yolo his Squad into the Blob to Drop some Torpedoes in there. And the Squad will be Gone.

Thats how Fairness Works.

 

Right now. The CV does not Care. He can Drop anyone at anytime without any Risk whatsoever to himself.

 

 

Actually they Do.

Your just not Understanding the Data.

 

BBs mostly do Damage to BBs and Cruisers. So they get High Damage but Low Exp.

They also dont do any real Spotting or Capturing of Points. So they have High Damage. And well that is it.

 

Cruisers are doing Good Damage and do Good Exp as they mostly use their Support Abilities and alot of their Damage comes from Enemy Cruisers and DDs.

 

And DDs do the lowest Damage. But they Capture Points and do Spotting. Moreover. Their Damage is often from Enemy DDs. Thanks to which they get alot of Experience.

 

 

But CVs ?

CVs do as much Damage as Battleships. But they do it to ALL Classes. They can do this Damage Accurately to Decide a Battle as they See fit.

They on top do as much Spotting as DDs. And they can even keep Enemy DDs Spotted at will. Being able to Spot without any Risk to Themselves. Unlike the DD which has to Risk his Life to do this.

Did you know ?

Capturing the Base in a Death Match while the Enemy CV is Still Alive. Is nearly Impossible. Because even if the Entire Enemy Team is somewhere else. The CV can Reach you regardless of his own Position and can Ruin your Day.

CVs can do Literally EVERYTHING better than the other Classes with only one Exception. Which is Capturing Points.

But as they can Virtually Deny Point Capture and kill the DD doing it from the Enemy if they want to. Its not really a Matter.

 

 

So no Offense to you Mate.

But CVs are in Fact. Outperforming all other Classes.

That is a Fact and has been Proven Several Times.

 

 

right..thats why GC outdmg any CV by [edited]far :) 

this was good joke mate

[Allied_Winter]

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Oh, look. Shokaku is actually stronger than before now.

No, no it is not! You yourself said she's totally unplayable now ... 

 

Or was this video just clickbait?

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

I understand the differences between the classes but why do you think WG balances CVs different to other classes?

 

Mostly because, as quite a few pointed out, Cruisers and DDs are more prone to take damage when they try to apply said damage. 

 

I mean ... hands down, El2 is correct with regards to the overall situation ... for a good player. For a bad player it doesn't make a difference if he loses his planes to AA (because he flew into too many flak bubbles) or gets blasted out of the water by having his citadel filled with enemy BB shells (because he showed broadside and potato-armour didn't work). And then we can see what quite often has happened with Warships balancing: As long as enough players are around the average mark, nothing to worry about.

 

Overall I can only guess, but I think that WG is quite happy with the number of CV Roflstompers like El2 (compared to pre-rework). Or in short: Who cares how much a unicum can stomp players with if the average looks good.

 

 

 

[Dubble_Dutch]

Battles with tier 3 and 4 ships with 4 CVs has become unplayable and is absolutely no fun playing any more. There isn't any ship in that tier that has decent AA that is even able to shoot down any plane whatsoever.

 

[Allied_Winter]

1 minute ago, Dubble_Dutch said:

4 CVs has become unplayable

I beg you pardon, you mean two CVs per team and thus four in total? Because 4 per team is not possible. 3 per team is the maximum.

[Capra76]

21 minutes ago, Allied_Winter said:

Overall I can only guess, but I think that WG is quite happy with the number of CV Roflstompers like El2 (compared to pre-rework). Or in short: Who cares how much a unicum can stomp players with if the average looks good.

 

The concern I have is that it's not really that complicated, once you get the idea of dodging flak all that's really left is lining up your attacks, even an average player with a bit of work should be getting towards this sort of level within 100 games or so.

[Allied_Winter]

Just now, Capra76 said:

The concern I have is that it's not really that complicated, once you get the idea of dodging flak all that's really left is lining up your attacks, even an average player with a bit of work should be getting towards this sort of level within 100 games or so.

Probably. But keep in mind, if the average player plays .... let's say three to four lines (one CV line among them) and plays three to ten games a week ... how long it'll take them to get to 100 games and learn when/how to dodge flak.

 

And then there's the players at T10 that still don't have a clue about the game. So the same will apply to CV tactics as well: Ignoring all game mechanics and simply do what they think is right and who knows, maybe it works for them? I mean, who said it in this (or a related thread)? Some DDs might be happier now, as in RTS days they were cross dropped and one shotted whereas now they get a 2 to 4k rocket strike every minute or so (assuming the enemy CV isn't El2). These are the same folks that park in front of a DM and pull smoke.

[El2aZeR]

5 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

The concern I have is that it's not really that complicated, once you get the idea of dodging flak all that's really left is lining up your attacks, even an average player with a bit of work should be getting towards this sort of level within 100 games or so.

 

No need for concerns. Just remember how speshul this playerbase is.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, veslingr said:

right..thats why GC outdmg any CV by [edited]far :) 

this was good joke mate

 

Did you Actually Read what I said ? :)

Damage alone is entirely Irrelevant.

Because you have no way to Check where that Damage was done.

10k Damage to a DD means that DD is Half Dead. 10k Damage to an Enemy BB means that BB is not even Impressed enough to Change Target to you.

 

Now. Conqueror will certainly do 10k Damage to an Enemy BB in this Situation.

But the only one able to just go ahead and Kill enemy DDs the same way is the CV.

 

Also Mate.

Someone already told you.

WoWs Numbers is Nice. But it Contains Data from the Past Years from Completely Different Situations.

 

If you want to get a Proper Grip on thins. Use Recent Data from Maplesyrup.

For example from here.

 

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20190928/eu_2month/average_class.html

 

And Guess what 63k to 61k

CVs and BBs in High Tier are Actually pretty much Equal in Damage.

So are Low Tier BBs and CVs.

 

But CVs as you can See get a Massively higher Experience Gain per Battle because they can a Crabton of other Jobs as well.

They for example do more Spotting Damage than DDs.

They also have a way Higher Kill Ratio per Match. And guess who has the Highest Defends Points ? Yep CVs again.

 

See Mate. You can Actually see that the Other Classes are Fairly Balanced in their Exp. Because while they Differ in Single Stats. They usually will beat other Classes in other Stats.

But CVs are Good at pretty much Everything Except being Hit by Enemies and Capturing Points.

 

 

Sorry Mate.

But the Facts are Against you.

CVs are Overpowered. That is a Fact which you yourself Admitted already by Equaling it to a 3 Person Division of other Ships.

Albeit of course that 3 Person Division never happened because you barely Play the Game and what little you Play is in CVs. Which basicly means you just Lied right into all of our Faces and made up these Claims up out of Thin Air.....

But well thats a Different Story I guess......

[Pikkozoikum]

42 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

And Guess what 63k to 61k

CVs and BBs in High Tier are Actually pretty much Equal in Damage.

So are Low Tier BBs and CVs.

CVs were suppoused to do more damage than BBs. There is always one ship type, who does the most damage, because that is the game design.

When did they added the emblems and symbols? You can archieve them by an arverage damage over 100 games with a ship type and the CV was the ship type, who needed the most average damage to unlock the emblems. The BBs the second highest.

 

If picked a random week at 2018 and the average damage of CV is 68k

 

42 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

They also have a way Higher Kill Ratio per Match

They have a lower kill ratio than RTS CVs, at least for the Data I checked.

 

42 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

But CVs as you can See get a Massively higher Experience Gain per Battle

If that is a problem, it just needs to be balanced. Because you have different modifiers for different classes. For example battle ships get more Exp for potential damage, than other ships. Thus if CVs get too much exp from their jobs, then they have to lower the modifiers for defend bases, or spotting.

 

But I don't think that is why a CV has high average base exp. It's most likely because they almost survive until end in most games. Thus they are generally able to gain more base exp than a dd, who dies in the first minutes.

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

CVs were suppoused to do more damage than BBs. There is always one ship type, who does the most damage, because that is the game design.

 

Wanna know what else is PvP game design?

Counterplay options.

 

Too bad reworked CVs have none.

 

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

They have a lower kill ratio than RTS CVs, at least for the Data I checked.

 

Ah, and here I thought statistics are irrelevant?

[1MajorKoenig]

8 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

And well, that still doesn't say what group is weighted more or whether they are weighted equally.

 

Which doesn’t really matter. One can still see how good,

average and weak players are doing compared to each other and how the situation compares to other ships/classes. 

 

If your personal impression is correct, WG would see two pretty low lines for average and bad players and a very high one for the good players.

 

However I have some doubts there, especially on the level of the “average” group

 

 

[MadBadDave]

Clearly there is a lot of anger towards cv’s, and you have to ask the question will this thread ever end, even if WG finally got something right and it pleased everyone. Given they continue to screw MM up I doubt it.

 

Cvs are and always will be OP it’s their nature, let’s face it they killed off the biggest and all BB’s with very little effort.

 

In game I hate cvs they have no counter play, and once spotted it’s totally up to the cv whether you live or die, by the what 3rd attack your aa is not existent you can’t run or hide, and since playing them  it’s noticeable how very easy it is to hit ships, and you can see why blobs formed, yes damage isn’t as high as citadelling a bb or cruiser but detonations are more common  and no amount of angling can prevent damage.

 

While aa diminishes plane availability and health does not, ie at the end of the game a winning cv will still have a full hp and it’s planes will be intact, a T10 bb will be battered and bruised with a lot of it’s aa destroyed. And then there’s the psychological impact of constantly being focused by a cv.

 

It won’t happen but cvs have to be removed, and I say that as a person getting into and starting to enjoy cvs, my last cv battle I won the game, by focussing on the same ship, as we all know within seconds of finishing one attack I was on him again, from the safety of the edge of the map.

 

Subs will be interesting but still won’t be as op as CV’s they have to be on the front line and can’t travel the entire length of the map in what one minute.

[El2aZeR]

16 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Which doesn’t really matter.

 

Except it does. That was my entire point.

In balance playerskill is irrelevant because you assume that whatever mechanic you're designing will be used to its full potential. Hence why bad player stats are irrelevant while skilled player stats are the balancing benchmark.

 

17 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

If your personal impression is correct, WG would see two pretty low lines for average and bad players and a very high one for the good players.

 

Honestly you've lost me on this one. What lines?

 

As for your doubts for "average" players, it can in fact be proven. As I explained time and time again, just a quick look into the top 100 list maplesyrup provides will show a tremendous difference in stats when you compare between CVs and other classes, meaning that the CV playerbase isn't capable of filling even 100 slots with truly skilled players.

Likewise CV average stats are down, but top player stats have not changed much (if at all). Therefore the potential of CVs remains the same as before.

This means one of the following is true:

- CVs have become harder to play

- Average player skill is down the drain

 

Given that the rework was marketed towards players who have either never played CVs or even this game before it isn't hard to conclude that the latter is true.

[Allied_Winter]

4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

In balance playerskill is irrelevant because you assume that whatever mechanic you're designing will be used to its full potential. Hence why bad player stats are irrelevant while skilled player stats are the balancing benchmark.

 

Precisely. 

 

But on the other hand, and that is what I'm (and you probably too) see with WG balancing, if the number of players that can reach full potential is small enough, one doesn't need to bother about them. Balancing by numbers. That's why a lot of forumites (with whom I have to agree too) say, "Look the average player is what counts."

 

In the end ... both (or all) sides are correct. Depending on the overall framing and background each and everyone has. Giving a Formula 1 car a simpler to operate clutch, might make Lewis Hamilton and co go faster (as well as generate some hate as know lesser skilled folks are now able to drive F1 cars), but on the other hand the "lesser skilled folks" are happy because now they get that darn car started and moving. Sure sparks flying left right and center, but it got going. And that's probably all the "lesser skilled folks" wanted. And the FIA as well, but maybe the spectators and promoters not so much. But hey, they already bought the tickets ...