CV Rework Discussion

[1MajorKoenig]

32 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

I don't have the actual number either, but don't you agree that when a significant number of players who have shown to be able to understand and make use of game mechanics, all have the same conclusion, this conclusion is almost certainly true. 

 

 

So it's not enough that good players explain that how flak works is something which isn't random and thus can be predicted and played around? That's the argument, not if flak shoots down planes. Flak surely shoots down planes... from bad players mostly. Which leaves only DPS as deterrent against good players, and DPS won't deplane them while a bad player would already lose to many planes to flak so he can't sustain added dps losses. 

 

Does it really matter what overall statistics are when every good CV which is able to dodge flak basically has free reign. Yes, dps will drop planes, and yes avg numbers might look fine, but wasn't REEwork meant to lower the gap between average and good CV players? Fix the vision issue ( how does that work out when you now have 3cv's in low tier matches sometimes... )? Lower influence of CV player on match outcome?

 

Good CV, basically one which can dodge flak and which knows how the aiming mechanics work, is still outperforming average CV by a landslide. 

 

Vision problem still there.

 

Influence of CV player on match is still not proportional to other ships.

 

The only thing REEwork was actually successful in so far is in making sure battleships ( ok ... and destroyers might not get cross dropped but that actually took some skill  and was very much rare for me at least unless meeting a very good CV player who was willing to invest a significant amount of time on it ) live longer even if they go without escort, and it removed the team work aspect of DFAA. 

 

And it caused the current: 'bad DD no spot but stay near fleet' complaints since isn't that what is sad to DD players complaining about being focused by CV's?

 

Hey hey

 

Yep in this particular instance I doubt that avoiding ALL Flak is really such a big issue as some here try to make it look like. Dodging some clouds sure but I would be curious to see if it is really such a biggy tbh. Mind you: overall. If I have once in 5000 games a CV player who dodges my clouds I won’t even bother. 

 

To the skill gap topic WG showed their analysis on that - However some of the players have a contradictory opinion. 

 

Honestly even if WG would show such analytics more often I think a lot of people would just go “they are just making up stuff, they look for numbers supporting their narrative, etc”. 

 

Not sure if such discussions are fruitful when some players are so much stuck in their opinions.

[veslingr]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The standard argument of some people here would be: Because the other players are all bad. ;)

 

If you are doing good, but other players not, then it's still a skill thing. The AA is working against everyone the same, the difference is the skill/knowledge of the players. Use the surface ships their sector system, do they play smart. Is the CV playing smart, going only for good targets. His the CV player dodging well the AA, etc.

 

I would assume, that you learnt way more about the CV Rework, than the average player. Also maybe you played more idk

it is the same question as "If AP is balanced why i do not recive 30-40 salvo from other BBs and other players got devastated?"

 

Avoiding AAA is to some degree skill.....so more skilled players take less dmg than less skiled players....and i personaly think it is ok.....same as with every other type of weapon where good players can reduce incoming dmg by ussing skill.

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Hey hey

 

Yep in this particular instance I doubt that avoiding ALL Flak is really such a big issue as some here try to make it look like. Dodging some clouds sure but I would be curious to see if it is really such a biggy tbh. Mind you: overall. If I have once in 5000 games a CV player who dodges my clouds I won’t even bother. 

 

To the skill gap topic WG showed their analysis on that - However some of the players have a contradictory opinion. 

 

Honestly even if WG would show such analytics more often I think a lot of people would just go “they are just making up stuff, they look for numbers supporting their narrative, etc”. 

 

Not sure if such discussions are fruitful when some players are so much stuck in their opinions.

If people are against something from the beginning, no argument will ever change their mind.

The CV gameplay could be 100% fitting into the game, and some people would still complain. Guess the "Dumbed down" arguement would be the favorite one.

Or, that the CV has too low impact (in the case the CV would be well balanced)

[mtm78]

30 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

To the skill gap topic WG showed their analysis on that - However some of the players have a contradictory opinion. 

 

Honestly even if WG would show such analytics more often I think a lot of people would just go “they are just making up stuff, they look for numbers supporting their narrative, etc”. 

 

Not sure if such discussions are fruitful when some players are so much stuck in their opinions.

 

What amount of ammo used in World of Tanks is 'premium' ammunition according to WG?

 

And yeah I missed those analytics, but I also seen streams where dev's and community managers were dodging questions left right and center.  Would be great if WG was more open about analytics... I would love to see a detailed damage distribution chart displaying ships classes being damaged by CV's. 

 

This is a commercial company, they made it clear they cater to BB players during the development cycles since this game left cbt, and I see REEwork as just another extension to this.

 

And about this discussion dying when subs are default game mode: how about I ignore submarines, let them kill my whole team I don't give a damn. I did not BUY my premium destroyers to go hunt submarines, WG can NOT force me to do so. So I will keep playing my BOUGHT CONTENT in the way intended WHEN I SPENT THE MONEY ON IT. Not on whatever promises WG wants to come back on. 

30 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

If people are against something from the beginning, no argument will ever change their mind.

This is such an easy out, it's frankly a bit disgusting to dismiss arguments because you want to lump everyone into a group of people who are just 'emotionally opposed to rework'. 

 

Yeah, I do find this quite distasteful really. 

[1MajorKoenig]

22 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

And yeah I missed those analytics, but I also seen streams where dev's and community managers were dodging questions left right and center.  Would be great if WG was more open about analytics... I would love to see a detailed damage distribution chart displaying ships classes being damaged by CV's. 

 

Look for the CC summit presentation. They showed their numbers and how they use them. 

 

22 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

And about this discussion dying when subs are default game mode: how about I ignore submarines, let them kill my whole team I don't give a damn. I did not BUY my premium destroyers to go hunt submarines, WG can NOT force me to do so. So I will keep playing my BOUGHT CONTENT in the way intended WHEN I SPENT THE MONEY ON IT.

 

I understand that position. I think change is inevitable in such a game so you can’t really hold tight to anything really. Which is especially annoying if the game is in a state one would like conserve. 

 

About the addition of subs in particular  - I am not surprised. I can’t say I am a huge proponent of that idea and don’t like what I have seen of the concept so far but apparently WG thinks it is the only way forward. I don’t know really if that will make the game better though 

 

EDIT: what I CAN tell you from my own perspective though: my excitement about new line announcements have almost completely died down. If I remember 2015/16 any new line was a huge happening and I was really excited. By now I barely notice the announcements. Nor have I played any of the recent lines much. Maybe WG is even right and I am not the only one needing fresh ideas 

[CptBarney]

19 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

What amount of ammo used in World of Tanks is 'premium' ammunition according to WG?

 

And yeah I missed those analytics, but I also seen streams where dev's and community managers were dodging questions left right and center.  Would be great if WG was more open about analytics... I would love to see a detailed damage distribution chart displaying ships classes being damaged by CV's. 

 

This is a commercial company, they made it clear they cater to BB players during the development cycles since this game left cbt, and I see REEwork as just another extension to this.

 

And about this discussion dying when subs are default game mode: how about I ignore submarines, let them kill my whole team I don't give a damn. I did not BUY my premium destroyers to go hunt submarines, WG can NOT force me to do so. So I will keep playing my BOUGHT CONTENT in the way intended WHEN I SPENT THE MONEY ON IT. Not on whatever promises WG wants to come back on. 

Id probs quit the game for good if subs enter randoms (will more like).

 

For numerous reasons ranging from playing minigames while im trying to actively learn how to play dd's and do more damage while still being effective. And reducing how far i can push in my BB's (especially miss georgia) because im pretty sure most teammates will camp and kite hard since the playerbase isn't exactly known for its competance.

 

19 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

This is such an easy out, it's frankly a bit disgusting to dismiss arguments because you want to lump everyone into a group of people who are just 'emotionally opposed to rework'. 

 

Yeah, I do find this quite distasteful really. 

People like him aren't interested in arguements, just having their voice heard.

 

Otherwise they would actually realised they have lost if they bother to cross reference anything and compare it to their own arguements and also reality.

 

Ironically enough hes described himself in said sentance.

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

19 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

This is such an easy out, it's frankly a bit disgusting to dismiss arguments because you want to lump everyone into a group of people who are just 'emotionally opposed to rework'. 

 

 

Oof, please don't say that. What are you saying makes no sense. I said "IF" . That means, there is a condition. The condition is, "if someone is against something from the beginning"

That doesn't mean, I dismiss arguments, because I want lump everyone (everyone?!?! where did I said that) into a group of people

 

And is my comment wrong? Is there nobody, who dislike the rework from the beginning, when it was annouced and is almost trying to sabotage it? I noticed that from one or two people (not a group)

 

Also you are saying "dismiss arguments". There are often no arguments. Opinions are not arguments, at least not in Germany, because arguments alsways need an evidence/fact, otherwise it's not an argument, but a claim/assertion

[1MajorKoenig]

3 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

People like him aren't interested in arguements, just having their voice heard.

 

Otherwise they would actually realised they have lost if they bother to cross reference anything and compare it to their own arguements and also reality.

 

Ironically enough hes described himself in said sentance.

 

And you think personal attacks are a good basis for interesting discussions?

 

 

9 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

playing minigames

 

Here we agree. I am not hyped about subs either. I don’t like what I have seen about ASW/counter play nor this whole odd tier stuff nor 30kn submerged subs. Not sure about that 

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, veslingr said:

it is the same question as "If AP is balanced why i do not recive 30-40 salvo from other BBs and other players got devastated?"

 

Avoiding AAA is to some degree skill.....so more skilled players take less dmg than less skiled players....and i personaly think it is ok.....same as with every other type of weapon where good players can reduce incoming dmg by ussing skill.

 

Problem is. Currently a Really Skilled Player can Evade nearly 100% of the AA Damage. But a Really Skilled Player can barely barely Avoid 1 out of 3 Strike Types. And even that one he can only Reduce Damage not actually Dodge it.

And no. The CV missing does not Count. If a BB Misses you because it Aimed wrong. It missed. You did not Avoid it.

[Pikkozoikum]

9 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Problem is. Currently a Really Skilled Player can Evade nearly 100% of the AA Damage

Could you show a replay, where nearly 100% is evaded? Guess I'm not really skilled, since I lose planes to AA

 

Btw, I remember someone, who said, that it's not possible to dodge air strikes, while against a BB you can get immune when bow in. Which would be the same case

[CptBarney]

3 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

And you think personal attacks are a good basis for interesting discussions?

 

Theres nothing to discuss besides incredibly small things at this point.

 

3 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Here we agree. I am not hyped about subs either. I don’t like what I have seen about ASW/counter play nor this whole odd tier stuff nor 30kn submerged subs. Not sure about that 

No, i just think subs are utterly pointless and when they arrive i will just quit, if i want to play subs there are far better games out there for that. 

 

And since this company fails epicly at balancing (besides reework, NTC which they were fine with going through with and also breaking multiple promises and thinking paid gold ammo was a good idea) im not interested in seeing the utter fail that submarines will be and then some bloody reeeework 3-5 years down the road (if this game still exists by then).

 

It's quite obvious this will be another class you can't really balance properly without causing frustrations on both sides.

[veslingr]

7 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Problem is. Currently a Really Skilled Player can Evade nearly 100% of the AA Damage. But a Really Skilled Player can barely barely Avoid 1 out of 3 Strike Types. And even that one he can only Reduce Damage not actually Dodge it.

And no. The CV missing does not Count. If a BB Misses you because it Aimed wrong. It missed. You did not Avoid it.

you talk about slingshot....well WG and their glorious mechanism that was introduced becasue AAA was out of this world and shreded every single exiting planes, so planes got imuunity which led to slingshots.

 

 

i was refering to dodging flack, it is skill dependent and as that, for me, wellcome to game.

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

you talk about slingshot....well WG and their glorious mechanism that was introduced becasue AAA was out of this world and shreded every single exiting planes, so planes got imuunity which led to slingshots.

 

 

i was refering to dodging flack, it is skill dependent and as that, for me, wellcome to game.

Entire immunity window was added simply because WG wants you to see firework without using RMB key

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, veslingr said:

you talk about slingshot....well WG and their glorious mechanism that was introduced becasue AAA was out of this world and shreded every single exiting planes, so planes got imuunity which led to slingshots.

 

 

i was refering to dodging flack, it is skill dependent and as that, for me, wellcome to game.

Is slingshot even worth? The mechanic change. I mean long range doesn't do much damage.

The major damage source is short range, and this is not bypassed with sling shot. I assume, that people, who use slingshot, will still lose planes

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

you talk about slingshot....well WG and their glorious mechanism that was introduced becasue AAA was out of this world and shreded every single exiting planes, so planes got imuunity which led to slingshots.

 

 

i was refering to dodging flack, it is skill dependent and as that, for me, wellcome to game.

 

No. I am talking about Heavy AA and Normal Flying.

 

Shall I tell you a Trick ?

 

Torpedo Bombers can Dive below Heavy AA. And as you can Start the Attack Run nearly 10km away. You can go into Attack Run before entering AA Range.

Thus not a Single Heavy AA Cloud will Hit you. Meaning you only take the DPS Damage which is not even 5% of the Total AA Damage.

 

With Divebombers. You can Slingshot in Theory. But I consider it an Exploit and dont Use it.

But you can actually just Fly in between the Flak Clouds without being Hit at all if you learned the Rythm of the Flak Bursts.

Its not that Hard to Learn actually. Just View the Black Puffs Spawning. And then in the same Rythm Change your Heading or Speed. So they dont Spawn ontop of you.

 

With Rocket Planes you have to do this to Succeed. But thanks to the Fast Refilling Motorboost. They can Change Speed Constantly. And thus are pretty easy to get through Flak without being Hit.

 

 

Believe me. Its not that Hard to Learn really.

Take a Training Room. Place a Minotaur or something. And just Figure out the Rythm without any Pressure.

[veslingr]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

Is slingshot even worth? The mechanic change. I mean long range doesn't do much damage.

The major damage source is short range, and this is not bypassed with sling shot.

i think in perfect situation your immunit expires same seconds you are over target and drop it than you gain new immunity....so in perfect scenario in is 100% imunnity.....but to produce that in reall game combat in almost impossible. 

[veslingr]

2 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

No. I am talking about Heavy AA and Normal Flying.

 

Shall I tell you a Trick ?

 

Torpedo Bombers can Dive below Heavy AA. And as you can Start the Attack Run nearly 10km away. You can go into Attack Run before entering AA Range.

Thus not a Single Heavy AA Cloud will Hit you. Meaning you only take the DPS Damage which is not even 5% of the Total AA Damage.

 

With Divebombers. You can Slingshot in Theory. But I consider it an Exploit and dont Use it.

But you can actually just Fly in between the Flak Clouds without being Hit at all if you learned the Rythm of the Flak Bursts.

Its not that Hard to Learn actually. Just View the Black Puffs Spawning. And then in the same Rythm Change your Heading or Speed. So they dont Spawn ontop of you.

 

With Rocket Planes you have to do this to Succeed. But thanks to the Fast Refilling Motorboost. They can Change Speed Constantly. And thus are pretty easy to get through Flak without being Hit.

 

 

Believe me. Its not that Hard to Learn really.

Take a Training Room. Place a Minotaur or something. And just Figure out the Rythm without any Pressure.

i get your point..but everything you said did not eliminate constant AAA DPS....you can not avoid it by attacking early with TB.

 

only 100% immunitiy is possible with perfect slingshot...on any other scenario AAA DPS will get dmg to you

[CptBarney]

1 minute ago, veslingr said:

i think in perfect situation your immunit expires same seconds you are over target and drop it than you gain new immunity....so in perfect scenario in is 100% imunnity.....but to produce that in reall game combat in almost impossible. 

Consistently it would be and the type of CV but some of the 65%+ players could probs do it semi consistently.

 

Idk know if he meant Avoid 100% of AA damage or avoiding 100% of flak which if thats the case the latter from what i've seen seems do able while the former is well impossible for obvious reasons.

 

But yeah slingshotting with dive bombers allows you to pop over a ship and drop yer bombs with minimal-mild damage taken.

 

I consider slingshotting a mechanic otherwise it wouldn't be there since the start or taken out ages ago.

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

i get your point..but everything you said did not eliminate constant AAA DPS....you can not avoid it by attacking early with TB.

 

only 100% immunitiy is possible with perfect slingshot...on any other scenario AAA DPS will get dmg to you

 

Thats why said "nearly" 100% of the AA Damage.

Most Ships Heavy AA Clouds have a Damage of nearly 2000 DPS. And if you Include Potential Mutli Cloud Hits it gets even Worse.

DPS on the other Hand is usually Values around 150-200 at best. And thats High Values.

Even if you take the Close Range Value which Includes all Outer Auras. You dont get anywhere near the 2000 DPS Value of the Heavy AA Clouds.

 

But since the Near Aura is usually very Limited you can for most Part just Stay outside it.

In the End. The only Damage you cant Evade is the DPS Value. Which makes up maybe 5-10% of the Total AA Damage.

 

And thats the thing. The DPS Values are so Low that currently. Even when a T8 CV Attacks a T10 AA Cruiser like Minotaur. If he knows what he is doing. He can Drop that Minotaur 2 Times with his T8 Aircraft.

And the Minotaur no matter how Skilled he is. Has to Hope that the CV Misses. Because except for the Torpedoes which against which he can at least Reduce the Damage by Maneuvering. He cant do anything to Prevent himself from being Hit.

[mtm78]

33 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

 

 

Oof, please don't say that. What are you saying makes no sense. I said "IF" . That means, there is a condition. The condition is, "if someone is against something from the beginning"

That doesn't mean, I dismiss arguments, because I want lump everyone (everyone?!?! where did I said that) into a group of people

 

And is my comment wrong? Is there nobody, who dislike the rework from the beginning, when it was annouced and is almost trying to sabotage it? I noticed that from one or two people (not a group)

 

Also you are saying "dismiss arguments". There are often no arguments. Opinions are not arguments, at least not in Germany, because arguments alsways need an evidence/fact, otherwise it's not an argument, but a claim/assertion

 

Need to pick up my kid, but I did miss the 'IF'. I might edit/expand on this response later though I just am afraid I'll miss it otherwise :D

 

And you're making a generic statement in a thread which imho isn't filled with opinion, but arguments founded on observed data ( which limits usefulness, but doesn't prevent it entirely ). 

[Pikkozoikum]

12 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Torpedo Bombers can Dive below Heavy AA. And as you can Start the Attack Run nearly 10km away. You can go into Attack Run before entering AA Range.

Thus not a Single Heavy AA Cloud will Hit you. Meaning you only take the DPS Damage which is not even 5% of the Total AA Damage.

well, if you go with potential dmg of flak explosion, that it will be maybe the case. But it makes no sense. Otherwise I could say with every ship, that I avoide more than 95% of the income damage. since the potential dmg is often 1-2 Mil.

So, avoiding that many dmg would be normal for every ship type

If I go with total AA damage, in most cases the cont. dps is doing it. I mean ships like Yahagi have only cont. dps. The thing with Flak explosion is, that they do a lot damage, when they hit, especially with DefAA. thus they need a low hit rate. otherwise it would be totally op, if people can shred in long range with every attack.

 

12 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

With Divebombers. You can Slingshot in Theory. But I consider it an Exploit and dont Use it.

But you can actually just Fly in between the Flak Clouds without being Hit at all if you learned the Rythm of the Flak Bursts.

Its not that Hard to Learn actually. Just View the Black Puffs Spawning. And then in the same Rythm Change your Heading or Speed. So they dont Spawn ontop of you.

The long range of a single ship is not the problem. Also the highest cont. dps is in short range, and the DBs are not by passing that.

It's more a problem, when there is a second ships, who is shooting with long range, while in short range of another ship.

12 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Believe me. Its not that Hard to Learn really.

Take a Training Room. Place a Minotaur or something. And just Figure out the Rythm without any Pressure.

It's not about to believe, if someone can avoide flak explosion. I can avoide those most of the time. You were talking about "AA damage" and that's what I'm refering to. The Flak explosions are not the major damage source of the total damage.

If I have to do an assumption* it's like

5-10% burst

10-20% flak explosion (but also depends heaivly on the players, guess it could also go up to almost 100% in single matches, but I'm talking about over all, wish I could see statistics about that)

70%-85% cont. dps

 

*it's not a fact

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

Need to pick up my kid, but I did miss the 'IF'. I might edit/expand on this response later though I just am afraid I'll miss it otherwise :D

 

And you're making a generic statement in a thread which imho isn't filled with opinion, but arguments founded on observed data ( which limits usefulness, but doesn't prevent it entirely ). 

Well, it was in context with the previous post ;)

I'm glad, that you just missed the "if" :P

[veslingr]

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

 

Thats why said "nearly" 100% of the AA Damage.

Most Ships Heavy AA Clouds have a Damage of nearly 2000 DPS. And if you Include Potential Mutli Cloud Hits it gets even Worse.

DPS on the other Hand is usually Values around 150-200 at best. And thats High Values.

Even if you take the Close Range Value which Includes all Outer Auras. You dont get anywhere near the 2000 DPS Value of the Heavy AA Clouds.

 

But since the Near Aura is usually very Limited you can for most Part just Stay outside it.

In the End. The only Damage you cant Evade is the DPS Value. Which makes up maybe 5-10% of the Total AA Damage.

 

And thats the thing. The DPS Values are so Low that currently. Even when a T8 CV Attacks a T10 AA Cruiser like Minotaur. If he knows what he is doing. He can Drop that Minotaur 2 Times with his T8 Aircraft.

And the Minotaur no matter how Skilled he is. Has to Hope that the CV Misses. Because except for the Torpedoes which against which he can at least Reduce the Damage by Maneuvering. He cant do anything to Prevent himself from being Hit.

this is also what WG stated they want to happen. They did say "no flying zone ships" is in the history.....and from my perspective it is also ok...t8 cruiser, dd, BB can and will do dmg to t10 bb/CL/DD....so i do not see reason why t8 cv could not strike t10 cruiser....todays cv have low alpha and dmg to that cruiser would not be that significat that no fly zone is needed. 

 

I really relly do not see reason why t8 cv should not be able to do 3-5 k dmg to cruiser with heavyy loses to planes

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, veslingr said:

this is also what WG stated they want to happen. They did say "no flying zone ships" is in the history.....and from my perspective it is also ok...t8 cruiser, dd, BB can and will do dmg to t10 bb/CL/DD....so i do not see reason why t8 cv could not strike t10 cruiser....todays cv have low alpha and dmg to that cruiser would not be that significat that no fly zone is needed. 

 

I really relly do not see reason why t8 cv should not be able to do 3-5 k dmg to cruiser with heavyy loses to planes

That's true, and I always try to tell that people. But it's op, if a CV can do any dmg against an AA Ship, people want their Wooster/Mino/Gearing and kill all the planes with the first flak explosion. *exaggerates*

[veslingr]

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

That's true, and I always try to tell that people. But it's op, if a CV can do any dmg against an AA Ship, people want their Wooster/Mino/Gearing and kill all the planes with the first flak explosion. *exaggerates*

peoples are funny.....cv dooing 3 k dmg to their BBs = rage mode on

Smolensk dooing 70 k dmg in 30 second= ok, crap happens