CV Rework Discussion

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, Panocek said:

And how many plane kills are actual strike aircraft?

Hmm, I guess it was every plane, but not 100% sure

[Mr_Glitter]

6 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

My average is 8.6 plane kills with the Yahagi (including non-CV matches). So, if the DPS is not destroying the planes, how I'm able to get 15-20 plane kills in some games? ;)

 

4 minutes ago, Panocek said:

And how many plane kills are actual strike aircraft?

And how many plane kills are from the fighter consumable? 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

I shot down 22 planes in Shima recently I guess AA is op lolol k

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

2 months ago:

Bad player loses all planes to AA.

 

Now:

Bad player loses all planes to AA.

 

Just because AA got buffed/nerfed doesn't mean CVs suddenly grow more planes to lose.

Use some basic logic before posting such nonsense, please.

Yes, please, try logic.

You think, there are only bad players and you. We can clearly see that you are argue with "bad players" But there are many players, who are not bad, but also not unicums. Those players don't lose always all planes. Even bad players don't lose always all planes, they are not bots, even if you like to think that.

Thus, if the AA is really weak, most players won't lose all the time all planes. (Otherwise I want see the proof of that)

If the AA is stronger, than players will lose more planes, or all. Over hundred thousands of games, you would clearly see the difference. But there is no. But believe, what you want ;)

 

4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Assuming what you say is true:

1. Yahagi has one of the better AA suites on her tier.

2. Bad players loiter inside AA longer than skilled ones, automatically resulting in more kills.

 

As such you've done nothing but proven that bad CV players lose all their planes regardless of whether it is to flak or DPS and, unless ridiculously weak, regardless of strength of such.

Which disproves your claim above ironically. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

The claim was "dps is not shotting down planes" and I disproven that, it also doesn't matter if Yahagi or other ship. cont. DPS is killing planes.

 

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Such stats do not exist because AA strength never was adequate to begin with.

And I'm merely telling the objective truth. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it any less so.

Well, you can believe that your claims are the truth, but without any facts, it's worthless, what you think. I go mostly with statistic and not what random people tell.

 

[Pikkozoikum]

13 minutes ago, Mr_CVed said:

 

And how many plane kills are from the fighter consumable? 

I checked it just once, the fighter did like 2 kills of ~15 total kills.

 

10 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

I shot down 22 planes in Shima recently I guess AA is op lolol k

That never could happen pre-Rework ;)

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, Pikkozoikum sagte:

Yes, please, try logic.

You think, there are only bad players and you. We can clearly see that you are argue with "bad players" But there are many players, who are not bad, but also not unicums. Those players don't lose always all planes. Even bad players don't lose always all planes, they are not bots, even if you like to think that.

Thus, if the AA is really weak, most players won't lose all the time all planes. (Otherwise I want see the proof of that)

If the AA is stronger, than players will lose more planes, or all. Over hundred thousands of games, you would clearly see the difference. But there is no. But believe, what you want ;)

 

The claim was "dps is not shotting down planes" and I disproven that, it also doesn't matter if Yahagi or other ship. cont. DPS is killing planes.

 

Well, you can believe that your claims are the truth, but without any facts, it's worthless, what you think. I go mostly with statistic and not what random people tell.

 

Statistics prove the avg player is bad. 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Statistics prove the avg player is bad. 

Yes, and the majority are the average players. But you can't balance because players are too bad for dodging AA, or playing smart around a CVs attacks. Otherwise the same woudl count for torpedo prediction or avoding broadside.

If you don't want the "skill" component in this game, then you have to remove it compeltly and make it just 100% RNG without any aiming or needed knowledge.

[Sunleader]

Wow.

Long Discussion in the Topic and I am not Involved.

How the Hell did that Happen ?

 

Also did I just read someone is Proud that he can Manage 15 Aircraft Kills against the Noob Players in T4 ?

I mean no Offense. But in T4 most CV Players wont even Hit you with their Strikes if you freaking Beached yourself and got Stuck.

 

If you got 2 CVs on T4 and get Striked 15 Times that Match without the CVs actually doing any Damage to you thanks to Dropping their Ordnance into the Water.

Then you will get 15 Aircraft Kills pretty easily. Because you Shoot down 1 Aircraft for Squadron he Sends...

Not that he Really Cares. Because he can Still Strike you 2-3 Times with each Squadron. But you do still get Aircraft Kills lol.

[El2aZeR]

21 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Yes, please, try logic.

You think, there are only bad players and you.

 

Considering even mediocre players can make it into the top 100 it can be assumed that the impact of such players on global stats is negligible.

 

Also in terms of playing style they are objectively no better than bots. Just go watch some streams of bad/mediocre CV players.

 

21 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The claim was "dps is not shotting down planes" and I disproven that, it also doesn't matter if Yahagi or other ship. cont. DPS is killing planes.

 

The actual claim was that the majority of plane losses from bad CV players is due to flak. That does not mean DPS isn't effective against bad CV players. That is something you inferred from it.

 

21 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Well, you can believe that your claims are the truth, but without any facts, it's worthless, what you think. I go mostly with statistic and not what random people tell.

 

Unlike you I have claimed nothing without being able to back it up with indisputable facts. Yet for some reason you remain resistant to them.

Also you just told us statistics are irrelevant when it comes to balance. Now you suddenly believe in them wholeheartedly.

 

And you want people to stop calling out your dishonesty LOL.

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

But who cares but you who clearly doesn't even bring a point to the table? What's your point? Is flak to strong? Is AA to strong? If so then you are delusional and don't know what you talk about. AA is the weakest in a long time and it has been posted a shitton of times already get over it! 

 

 

 

No offence but do you even read? I wasn’t even talking about how strong the combined AA level is at the moment (I have an opinion but that doesn’t matter at the moment). 

 

I was referring to your claim that Flak (clouds) is useless because it CAN be dodged.

 

And I simply asked for numbers to prove that AA clouds are really inefficient on an overall scale. 

 

Seems difficult to stay on topic? 

 

With regards to OP/UP - it’s been all said. I won’t continue on that with you 

 

 

Hence: still waiting to see if you have something to back your claim  on the clouds or whether it is just your personal impression. Which by the way would be fine but you should mark it as such

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, 1MajorKoenig sagte:

 

No offence but do you even read? I wasn’t even talking about how strong the combined AA level is at the moment (I have an opinion but that doesn’t matter at the moment). 

 

I was referring to your claim that Flak (clouds) is useless because it CAN be dodged.

 

And I simply asked for numbers to prove that AA clouds are really inefficient on an overall scale. 

 

Seems difficult to stay on topic? 

 

With regards to OP/UP - it’s been all said. I won’t continue on that with you 

 

 

Hence: still waiting to see if you have something to back your claim  on the clouds or whether it is just your personal impression. Which by the way would be fine but you should mark it as such

It's a fact that flak is irrelevant because it's avoidable. 

It shouldn't even be accounted for because of that. You don't go and say that a fighting game character is Op because of an avoidable throw. You only say it if it's unavoidable. 

 

Flak is avoidable therefore irrelevant. It has no effect whatsoever. To the one who can dodge. Since the rest of what's there which is unavoidable damage is to weak to matter it means? 

 

AA IS USELESS AND NONEXISTANT

[El2aZeR]

14 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

And I simply asked for numbers to prove that AA clouds are really inefficient on an overall scale. 

 

Again, how is that relevant?

 

Sure seems difficult to stay on topic indeed.

[1MajorKoenig]

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Again, how is that relevant?

 

Sure seems difficult to stay on topic indeed.

 

Is that a serious question? If clouds do a significant portion of the overall damage overall the claim “they are useless” is simply wrong. 

 

So lets just see the overall numbers

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 3 Minuten, 1MajorKoenig sagte:

 

Is that a serious question? If clouds do a significant portion of the overall damage overall the claim “they are useless” is simply wrong. 

 

So lets just see the overall numbers

If AA is fine why am I so good and the other people aren't. I should lose the same amount of planes as the bad players right? 

[Padds01]

23 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

It's a fact that flak is irrelevant because it's avoidable.

got a question, how do you avoid the flak that hits you when turning or during the start end animations where you cant maneuvre?

 

heres i think last weeks Community stream

 

one of the guys plays a haku then a midway and he eats flak in the same way i do ,  hes clearly not a pro midway player (and neither am i) so what are we doing wrong? 

 

[Lootboxer]

I am average/poor CV player and I am losing about the same number of planes as before.

I am not getting deplaned and I wasn't before AA nerfs (except for very rare cases where I up really badly )

I am losing similar number of planes because now I can be much less careful in target selection and to go for stronger AA ships or blobs even and still be OK plane wise, so why not?

I am sure most do the same.

That above plus flak collecting "pros" would explain similar number of plane kills overall on the server.

As a surface ship AA feels pretty much useless unless enemy CV is speshul and throws planes into the clouds of smoke to proceed with attempts of torping me from the bow or bombing from the side of my ship missing most of the time.

 

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 3 Minuten, Padds01 sagte:

got a question, how do you avoid the flak that hits you when turning or during the start end animations where you cant maneuvre?

 

heres i think last weeks Community stream

 

one of the guys plays a haku then a midway and he eats flak in the same way i do ,  hes clearly not a pro midway player (and neither am i) so what are we doing wrong? 

 

You are Dodging on the wrong rhythm. Dodging flak is like rhythm games. You dodge before it spawns. It's always the same rhythm. Practice it in training room and you will soon never get hit anymore 

[Padds01]

10 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

You are Dodging on the wrong rhythm. Dodging flak is like rhythm games. You dodge before it spawns. It's always the same rhythm. Practice it in training room and you will soon never get hit anymore 

yeah i can dodge it on approach , but the animations when going into an attack or coming out of one seem to be too long to fit between the beats, i had assumed i was just bad but this guy in the vid does exactly the same plus he needs to stop dodging to actually line up an attack (as i do and we both usually eat a good plate full doing that) , of course not a problem when ships are solo as you can get in close range and stop the flak but when your still in another ships flak zone we both get mauled 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, Padds01 sagte:

yeah i can dodge it on approach , but the animations when going into an attack or coming out of one seem to be too long to fit between the beats, i had assumed i was just bad but this guy in the vid does exactly the same plus he needs to stop dodging to actually line up an attack (as i do and we both usually eat a good plate full doing that) , of course not a problem when ships are solo as you can get in close range and stop the flak but when your still in another ships flak zone we both get mauled 

I will try to make a video on how I do it after work

[Bellegar]

15 hours ago, Allied_Winter said:

 

Yes that was done intentionally by us.

 

Excavatus explained it here:

Source: 

 

 

 

 

Ah sorry missed that

Somehow I thought it was still pinned before you closed it, and wasn't after reopening... I blame lack of coffee, something I will sort out immediately! :)

[CptBarney]

2 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Is that a serious question? If clouds do a significant portion of the overall damage overall the claim “they are useless” is simply wrong. 

 

So lets just see the overall numbers

It's mainly due to whether peeps dodge flak or not. I do dodge flak but havent understood the rhythem thing enough but its more than enough for me to drop 2+ on targets.

 

Flak because an actual issue or more of issue (depending on skill level, experience etc.) when facing multiple ships (unless theres a way to dodge flak from multiple ships in different directions).

 

It's kinda why blobs are gud at removing some or most planes, but the ships in question also help. something like 2 jean barts, georgia and mino is going to be very hard to strike.

 

But even though i struggled with miss lexi i still able to drop and kill an alaska and thunderer over time. (alsaka died 3 mins before thunderer but still).

 

I'd rather have strong CD, than flak or make flak random so that you cant figure out a pattern so easily.

 

Either way this reework failed to bridge the gap between bads and goods and beyond.

 

And i still prefer the Mini RTS version as well.

[mtm78]

6 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

You can’t judge just from your own impression but you need to look at the bigger picture. And I highly doubt that your claim holds true on a global average 

 

I don't have the actual number either, but don't you agree that when a significant number of players who have shown to be able to understand and make use of game mechanics, all have the same conclusion, this conclusion is almost certainly true. 

 

5 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I was asking for the share % with DPS and absolute amount of damage of Flak clouds on a global average. Because that is what you claimed: Flak clouds don’t do anything.

 

So it's not enough that good players explain that how flak works is something which isn't random and thus can be predicted and played around? That's the argument, not if flak shoots down planes. Flak surely shoots down planes... from bad players mostly. Which leaves only DPS as deterrent against good players, and DPS won't deplane them while a bad player would already lose to many planes to flak so he can't sustain added dps losses. 

 

5 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The statistic, that I saw, was more like, that the aa shot down the same amount like 2 month ago

Does it really matter what overall statistics are when every good CV which is able to dodge flak basically has free reign. Yes, dps will drop planes, and yes avg numbers might look fine, but wasn't REEwork meant to lower the gap between average and good CV players? Fix the vision issue ( how does that work out when you now have 3cv's in low tier matches sometimes... )? Lower influence of CV player on match outcome?

 

Good CV, basically one which can dodge flak and which knows how the aiming mechanics work, is still outperforming average CV by a landslide. 

 

Vision problem still there.

 

Influence of CV player on match is still not proportional to other ships.

 

The only thing REEwork was actually successful in so far is in making sure battleships ( ok ... and destroyers might not get cross dropped but that actually took some skill  and was very much rare for me at least unless meeting a very good CV player who was willing to invest a significant amount of time on it ) live longer even if they go without escort, and it removed the team work aspect of DFAA. 

 

And it caused the current: 'bad DD no spot but stay near fleet' complaints since isn't that what is sad to DD players complaining about being focused by CV's?

[veslingr]

18 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

I don't have the actual number either, but don't you agree that when a significant number of players who have shown to be able to understand and make use of game mechanics, all have the same conclusion, this conclusion is almost certainly true. 

 

 

So it's not enough that good players explain that how flak works is something which isn't random and thus can be predicted and played around? That's the argument, not if flak shoots down planes. Flak surely shoots down planes... from bad players mostly. Which leaves only DPS as deterrent against good players, and DPS won't deplane them while a bad player would already lose to many planes to flak so he can't sustain added dps losses. 

 

Does it really matter what overall statistics are when every good CV which is able to dodge flak basically has free reign. Yes, dps will drop planes, and yes avg numbers might look fine, but wasn't REEwork meant to lower the gap between average and good CV players? Fix the vision issue ( how does that work out when you now have 3cv's in low tier matches sometimes... )? Lower influence of CV player on match outcome?

 

Good CV, basically one which can dodge flak and which knows how the aiming mechanics work, is still outperforming average CV by a landslide. 

 

Vision problem still there.

 

Influence of CV player on match is still not proportional to other ships.

 

The only thing REEwork was actually successful in so far is in making sure battleships ( ok ... and destroyers might not get cross dropped but that actually took some skill  and was very much rare for me at least unless meeting a very good CV player who was willing to invest a significant amount of time on it ) live longer even if they go without escort, and it removed the team work aspect of DFAA. 

 

And it caused the current: 'bad DD no spot but stay near fleet' complaints since isn't that what is sad to DD players complaining about being focused by CV's?

- rework primary wanted to disable good CV players shut down bad CV players and increase numbers of players playing it and that bouth CVs can "have fun" while in RTS if you were aains much better cv you just did not have fun :). And now uniqum in CV can not shut down other guy. Yes he can win games for team but not by blocking other CV. So this part of rework is working as inteded.

 

- Influance of CV will always be great to most inflential ship in game. just ability to change side of attack in 1-2 minute gives something no other ship can do

 

but, this CV discusion will soon be over, i mean....guided torpedos that can hit citadels of bbs ? :)

oh i can wait for that :)

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Does it really matter what overall statistics are when every good CV which is able to dodge flak basically has free reign. Yes, dps will drop planes, and yes avg numbers might look fine, but wasn't REEwork meant to lower the gap between average and good CV players? Fix the vision issue ( how does that work out when you now have 3cv's in low tier matches sometimes... )? Lower influence of CV player on match outcome?

The statistic matters way more and single opinions of players. A really good player can say CV is op and easy. But this doesn'T matter, because he is a really good player and everything will be easy for him and he wil be good with everything. So his own skill is influencing his skill

I remembe,r when I watched a master player on stream playing for honor, and he said "this game is way to easy and the lawbringer is a free win" ... well, this is not a general statement, it's only him, because he was so good.

 

I explained the "skill gap" problem is fixed between good CV player and bad CV player. Guess what, the good CV player is still better. But he doesn't denies the other CV player completly with his fighters, thus the bad CV player can do something, without being smashed by a unicum.

 

Also the CV has way less influence, I'm so often like 5 times more worth then the enemy CV and still lose, because the enemy team in general was better.

8 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Good CV, basically one which can dodge flak and which knows how the aiming mechanics work, is still outperforming average CV by a landslide.

Every good player performs better than a bad player. Has nothing to do with the CV. A bad player doesn't use smoke, doesn't try to angle, dies often in the first 5 mintues etc.

 

9 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Influence of CV player on match is still not proportional to other ships.

I think the DD influence is higher. The CV has more flexible, which makes it easier for good players. It's the same like in league of legends, there are easy to play champs, and pretty complicated champs. Good player perform way better with the last one, while theere is less of a difference with easy to play champs.

 

A bad player in a BB is less noticeable than a bad player in a DD

 

13 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

And it caused the current: 'bad DD no spot but stay near fleet' complaints since isn't that what is sad to DD players complaining about being focused by CV's?

That's something, that has nothing to do with the rework. That counts for the RTS even more, because of invincible (hp reset) perma-spotting dive-bomber

If people missplay, that it's their fault. Same counts for people, who show full broadside against bbs and stuff like that.

 

The most problem is, that people think, this is a 1vs1 game. But it's not. this game is not balancing every ship vs every other to make every 1vs1 fair. I think, depending on the situation, one ship type will never have the same value/influence, than another.

 

I see CV more like a Artillery. A artillery is shooting from behind, without getting harmed, to give support fire.

Or like the global-map characters in Moba games. For example Abathur in Heroes of the Storm.

 

I don't say, the CV is perfectly balanced. But I also don't think, it's like people describe it here, it's totally overstated.

I assume, that some people are just mad because of the removal of the RTS gameplay and they're not interested in balancing the CV and make it work.

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

4 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

If AA is fine why am I so good and the other people aren't. I should lose the same amount of planes as the bad players right? 

The standard argument of some people here would be: Because the other players are all bad. ;)

 

If you are doing good, but other players not, then it's still a skill thing. The AA is working against everyone the same, the difference is the skill/knowledge of the players. Use the surface ships their sector system, do they play smart. Is the CV playing smart, going only for good targets. His the CV player dodging well the AA, etc.

 

I would assume, that you learnt way more about the CV Rework, than the average player. Also maybe you played more idk