CV Rework Discussion

[Ferry_25]

Been "hiding" nearly a year because of this CV nonsense. My wallet as closed as my door of course. Did some matches last week on randoms. Too few to draw any conclusions of course. But the CV's seem to be at the same comfortable extinction level as they used to be pre rework. And I think that's awesome. Also the AA on ships seem to bite back. But still I think the class is broken. But IDGAF. My wallet has a spell on it: CVsa exitme in case you might wonder.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 7 Stunden, Ferry_25 sagte:

Been "hiding" nearly a year because of this CV nonsense. My wallet as closed as my door of course. Did some matches last week on randoms. Too few to draw any conclusions of course. But the CV's seem to be at the same comfortable extinction level as they used to be pre rework. And I think that's awesome. Also the AA on ships seem to bite back. But still I think the class is broken. But IDGAF. My wallet has a spell on it: CVsa exitme in case you might wonder.

AA does nothing. 

CV's are not played because many think AA is overturned aka its to hard for them to dodge the black clouds. 

 

[1MajorKoenig]

3 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

AA does nothing. 

CV's are not played because many think AA is overturned aka its to hard for them to dodge the black clouds. 

 

 

This point gets really long in the teeth now. Yes you can dodge some Flak (same as you can dodge some shells in a ship) but unless you prove in hard numbers that the global damage done by Flak clouds is insignificant overall your point is just a personal opinion. No matter how often it gets repeated 

 

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 1 Minute, 1MajorKoenig sagte:

 

This point gets really long in the teeth now. Yes you can dodge some Flak (same as you can dodge some shells in a ship) but unless you prove in hard numbers that the global damage done by Flak clouds is insignificant overall your point is just a personal opinion. No matter how often it gets repeated 

 

 

Global dmg of flak does nothing because I dodge it. Who cares about flak but bads who can't avoid it??? 

[1MajorKoenig]

8 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Global dmg of flak does nothing because I dodge it. Who cares about flak but bads who can't avoid it??? 

 

Again - the fact you dodge it doesn’t mean it doesn’t do anything - as you put - on a global scale. And unless you prove it’s dodged to a degree where it is really insignificant your point is just an opinion. 

 

Would be like claiming Khabas are never hit as some players are dodging most incoming fire and concluding that fire from surface ships therefore “does nothing”.

 

You can’t judge just from your own impression but you need to look at the bigger picture. And I highly doubt that your claim holds true on a global average 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, 1MajorKoenig sagte:

 

Again - the fact you dodge it doesn’t mean it doesn’t do anything - as you put - on a global scale. And unless you prove it’s dodged to a degree where it is really insignificant your point is just an opinion. 

 

Would be like claiming Khabas are never hit as some players are dodging most incoming fire and concluding that fire from surface ships therefore “does nothing”.

 

You can’t judge just from your own impression but you need to look at the bigger picture. And I highly doubt that your claim holds true on a global average 

So you want it to be adjusted for the average to have an easy time... Someone like you possibly? 

Flak is supposed to punish. It does that really well. No need for changes. Dodge it or quit playing CV

[1MajorKoenig]

1 minute ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

So you want it to be adjusted for the average to have an easy time... Someone like you possibly? 

Flak is supposed to punish. It does that really well. No need for changes. Dodge it or quit playing CV

 

Dude - relax. I am not talking about myself. I am talking about you and two others judging CV balance by the best players and the other classes by the average player. You may find the problem with that yourself.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, 1MajorKoenig sagte:

 

Dude - relax. I am not talking about myself. I am talking about you and two others judging CV balance by the best players and the other classes by the average player. You may find the problem with that yourself.

Where do you see me judge other classes by the avg player? 

Who does that again? El2aZeR? Quote him where he said that I highly doubt it. 

 

 

 

There is no need to relax. CV are absurdly OP again and flak does the bare minimum at the moment. No need to go by the avg here because they could as well be afk it wouldn't change the match outcome. 

[1MajorKoenig]

28 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Where do you see me judge other classes by the avg player? 

Who does that again? El2aZeR? Quote him where he said that I highly doubt it. 

 

 

 

There is no need to relax. CV are absurdly OP again and flak does the bare minimum at the moment. No need to go by the avg here because they could as well be afk it wouldn't change the match outcome. 

 

El2 said multiple times he doesn’t care about the average players and judges CVs only from the best players. Won’t bother to find a quote as it doesn’t really matter but he reads this thread and can correct just in case I summarized that incorrectly.

 

And sorry dude but I doubt you have the numbers to really make any credible claims on AA. You have your own impression as an experienced players - which is fine.  Problem is you make it look like a scientific fact where it is not 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 37 Minuten, 1MajorKoenig sagte:

and the other classes by the average player.

Do you even know what you are saying at this point? You claim that we argue about judging other ship classes by avg player while judging CV by best. You are wrong on that. Never stated El2a cared about the avg player. 

 

 

I don't have the numbers? What numbers do you wish me to have then? 67% WR over 250 battles isn't enough for you? Want me to be a second El2a first? 

Or do you need El2a to confirm? I can summon him. 

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

El2 said multiple times he doesn’t care about the average players and judges CVs only from the best players. Won’t bother to find a quote as it doesn’t really matter but he reads this thread and can correct just in case I summarized that incorrectly.

 

And sorry dude but I doubt you have the numbers to really make any credible claims on AA. You have your own impression as an experienced players - which is fine.  Problem is you make it look like a scientific fact where it is not 

When I look at the statistic, then it looks like, that the plane kills almost the same like two month ago

[El2aZeR]

46 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I am talking about you and two others judging CV balance by the best players and the other classes by the average player.

 

I'm sure you can source that.

Otherwise that'd just be a pathetic attempt to undermine our credibility, wouldn't it?

 

Here's a good question for you though:

Why is the average player relevant when it comes to balance? And if so, isn't any blatantly overpowered ship perfectly fine since the average player fails in them as usual anyway?

And how come Enterprise ended up being so overpowered despite her performance having been adjusted according to average stats?

 

I'm sure you have plenty of arguments to back up your claim, so lets hear them.

Otherwise you'd just be rambling irrelevant nonsense, no?

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

I don't have the numbers? What numbers do you wish me to have then? 67% WR over 250 battles isn't enough for you? Want me to be a second El2a first? 

Or do you need El2a to confirm? I can summon him.  

My winrate with Asashio is also ~67%  with 215 games. But I also remember, that people said, that this is a bad dd. So guess this doesn't tell us anything ;)

 

Sadly it's a common argument to go with the "players" skill, when people talk about balance, which never works. Because I can always argue for or against something, if I go with the player skill

 

CV is op, because of the high winrates of player x

CV is up, because of the low winrate of player y

I can argue for both sides just going with the skill ^^

 

The balancing should go with the ship values and properties in first place.

[1MajorKoenig]

3 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

I'm sure you can source that.

Otherwise that'd just be a pathetic attempt to undermine our credibility, wouldn't it?

 

Here's a good question for you though:

Why is the average player relevant when it comes to balance? And if so, isn't any blatantly overpowered ship perfectly fine since the average player fails in them as usual anyway?

 

What do you do to compare Kremlin, GK and Montana? Look at the best player in each ship?

[1MajorKoenig]

11 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

on't have the numbers? What numbers do you wish me to have then? 67% WR over 250 battles isn't enough for you?

 

Nope.

 

I was asking for the share % with DPS and absolute amount of damage of Flak clouds on a global average. Because that is what you claimed: Flak clouds don’t do anything.

 

 

[El2aZeR]

11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The balancing should go with the ship values and properties in first place.

 

Which automatically assumes players are actually smart enough to use them to their fullest potential.

As such bad player performance is irrelevant, while the performance of the most skilled players is what you balance around.

And if we apply that to CVs they are blatantly overpowered.

 

Thank you for making our point.

 

9 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

What do you do to compare Kremlin, GK and Montana? Look at the best player in each ship?

 

Compare hard and soft ship stats, ingame performance of top players, sample size of said players, counterplay options and viability of such along with my own experience in the ships in question.

 

And it seems you've missed one. No sweat, I can just repeat it:

14 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And how come Enterprise ended up being so overpowered despite her performance having been adjusted according to average stats?

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 12 Minuten, 1MajorKoenig sagte:

 

Nope.

 

I was asking for the share % with DPS and absolute amount of damage of Flak clouds on a global average. Because that is what you claimed: Flak clouds don’t do anything.

 

 

But who cares but you who clearly doesn't even bring a point to the table? What's your point? Is flak to strong? Is AA to strong? If so then you are delusional and don't know what you talk about. AA is the weakest in a long time and it has been posted a shitton of times already get over it! 

 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

But who cares but you who clearly doesn't even bring a point to the table? What's your point? Is flak to strong? Is AA to strong? If so then you are delusional and don't know what you talk about. AA is the weakest in a long time and it has been posted a Shotton of times already get over it! 

 

 

Could you show the statistic, that the AA is so weak? ^^

 

The statistic, that I saw, was more like, that the aa shot down the same amount like 2 month ago

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, Pikkozoikum sagte:

Could you show the statistic, that the AA is so weak? ^^

 

The statistic, that I saw, was more like, that the aa shot down the same amount like 2 month ago

Did you know that 2 months ago players also failed to dodge flak? 

The planes get shot down by flak not automatic DPS. 

 

Also your Asashio example. You got 67% in Asashio, congrats. I got 67% growth on overall stats. There is the difference. 

[El2aZeR]

25 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I was asking for the share % with DPS and absolute amount of damage of Flak clouds on a global average. Because that is what you claimed: Flak clouds don’t do anything.

 

Here is another good question:

Why is the global average relevant? Flak is supposed to punish bad CV players. The great majority of CV players is bad as with all classes. As such global flak damage is bound to be pretty high, but it's also supposed to be that way. Otherwise it'd make no sense for flak mechanics to exist in the first place.

 

Meanwhile documentation proves flak has severe limitations and as such can be avoided pretty much entirely. There is plenty of evidence to back it up as well.

 

11 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The statistic, that I saw, was more like, that the aa shot down the same amount like 2 month ago

 

Which proves AA is too weak because it was already too weak 2 months ago, no?

*slow clap*

Another great attempt at being intellectually dishonest.

[Panocek]

[Pikkozoikum]

Just now, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Did you know that 2 months ago players also failed to dodge flak? 

And here we go again with the "player skill" argument. If statistic don'T work, just take the player skill to account xD

 

2 month ago the aa was way stronger, so if they also failed to doge the flak, then they should have even more plane kills? ;)

 

3 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

The planes get shot down by flak not automatic DPS. 

Nope, the dps is killing a lot dps, 2 month ago, when the AA was stronger, and now. I play the Yahagi lately, and this ship has no flak explosions, but I do a lot plane kills.

My average is 8.6 plane kills with the Yahagi (including non-CV matches). So, if the DPS is not destroying the planes, how I'm able to get 15-20 plane kills in some games? ;)

 

7 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Also your Asashio example. You got 67% in Asashio, congrats. I got 67% growth on overall stats. There is the difference. 

Why does you overall stat matter? I was saying, that those statistic doesn't matter ;)

[Panocek]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

My average is 8.6 plane kills with the Yahagi (including non-CV matches). So, if the DPS is not destroying the planes, how I'm able to get 15-20 plane kills in some games? ;)

And how many plane kills are actual strike aircraft?

[Pikkozoikum]

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Which proves AA is too weak because it was already too weak 2 months ago, no?

*slow clap*

Another great attempt at being intellectually dishonest.

Was it too weak? When was it not too weak and we check the stats there.

Stop with this "intellectually dishonest" [edited] comments and stay impersonal.

 

[El2aZeR]

9 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

2 month ago the aa was way stronger, so if they also failed to doge the flak, then they should have even more plane kills? ;)

 

2 months ago:

Bad player loses all planes to AA.

 

Now:

Bad player loses all planes to AA.

 

Just because AA got buffed/nerfed doesn't mean CVs suddenly grow more planes to lose.

Use some basic logic before posting such nonsense, please.

 

9 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

So, if the DPS is not destroying the planes, how I'm able to get 15-20 plane kills in some games? ;)

 

Assuming what you say is true:

1. Yahagi has one of the better AA suites on her tier.

2. Bad players loiter inside AA longer than skilled ones, automatically resulting in more kills.

3. Plane kills can be leeched.

 

As such you've done nothing but proven that bad CV players lose all their planes regardless of whether it is to flak or DPS and, unless ridiculously weak, regardless of strength of such.

Which disproves your claim above ironically. Way to shoot yourself in the foot.

 

4 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

When was it not too weak and we check the stats there.

 

Such stats do not exist because AA strength never was adequate to begin with.

And I'm merely stating the objective truth. If you don't like it, how about you just stop telling veiled lies?