CV Rework Discussion

[El2aZeR]

18 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I saw just once, that the spotting damage of CVs decreased with the rework.

 

Such a minuscule difference can easily be explained via instances of multiple CVs per side being possible.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Pikkozoikum said:

What I said is not wrong. People won't stop bantering, or did it stop about radar, HE-Spam etc?

 

 

Well Mate. Then ask yourself.

Has Radar or HE Spam been Fixed ?

A Harugumo can still Melt a Battleship with its Guns by Spamming HE.

And a Division of 2 or 3 Radar Cruisers can still pretty much Perma Spot Enemy DDs through any and all obstacles.

 

These Issues were surely addressed to some Degree. And they are certainly not as bad as CVs. So they get far less Complaints.

But they are still Issues. So of course there is still Complaints :)

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Such a minuscule difference can easily be explained via instances of multiple CVs per side being possible.

On high tier is only one CV per side. The funny thing is, the data I checked: The reworked low Tier CVs have higher spotting damage, than the RTS low Tiers.

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

On high tier is only one CV per side.

 

It's a soft cap. 4 CV matches can still occur. I do still get them on a fairly frequent basis.

And again, the difference is minuscule.

 

Besides, it's also highly probable that CVs now simply deal that damage themselves rather than rely on spotting.

 

6 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

The reworked low Tier CVs have higher spotting damage, than the RTS low Tiers.

 

In RTS low squad numbers with slow speed = bad spotting potential.

Meanwhile faster planes with faster cycling and long loiter time = high spotting potential.

 

It's not that hard.

[Pikkozoikum]

21 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

It's a soft cap. 4 CV matches can still occur. I do still get them on a fairly frequent basis.

As long as I know you can only get that after 3 minutes. At prime time, that shouldn't happend. Also I didn't had that since the change

 

22 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And again, the difference is minuscule.

Around 20% at the data I looked.

 

23 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

In RTS low squad numbers with slow speed = bad spotting potential.

Meanwhile faster planes with faster cycling and long loiter time = high spotting potential.

 

It's not that hard.

Still the comment on "more CVs less spotting damage" is false, since there are more CVs per team in low tiers, than in high tiers. Though I found also Data, where the low Tier RTS has higher spotting damage (~10% more than recent data). 

 

 

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

At prime time, that shouldn't happend.

 

And that's just it, isn't it? CVs aren't only played during prime time, making this argument moot.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Around 20% at the data I looked.

 

52.8k vs 56.1k when comparing weekly data from 2019/09/28 and 2019/01/26. Last I checked that's not a 20% difference.

Given that monthly data is likely inaccurate due to the severe changes to CVs we've experienced up until recently weekly data can be considered more accurate.

 

2 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Still the comment on "more CVs less spotting damage" is false, since there are more CVs per team in low tiers, than in high tiers.

 

Except you forget one thing.

Low tier RTS CVs also still had 4 CV matches without restrictions, so that makes a more comparable dataset which does not apply to high tiers.

 

And my point about CVs just dealing the damage themselves just gets ignored since it doesn't fit your narrative I suppose. As usual.

In fact we have comparable datasets that would support this. Being the highest ranking Enterprise player in both the rework and the RTS iteration we can see the following stats:

- comparable WR (RW 88 to RTS 93, far fewer matches played in RTS)

- rework deals significantly higher damage (RW 106k to RTS 93k)

- rework scores significantly higher KPM (RW 2.43 to RTS 2.13, although this has been one of my weaker weeks as far as the rework is concerned. Go back another week and I was scoring 2.7)

- RTS spots significantly more (RW 57k to RTS 97k)

 

On the other hand there is also data that shows high ranking CV players being equal in spotting in both iterations. This may be down to individual playstyle.

Regardless though, either reworked CVs spot just as much as RTS ones,

or alternatively reworked CVs spot less but it has no impact on the spotting situation at all since they deal what would be spotting damage themselves instead.

 

Pick your poison.

[anonym_8AYJrnybhu0v]

If you never experienced instant deletion of your destroyer by a Hukaryu with 3 torpedo squadrons making it impossible to dodge 1 minute 30 seconds after the battle starts, you should really like the CV rework. 

 

If you never experienced instant deletion of your battleship by a 2 torpedo squadron and a bomber waiting after you repair your flooding (flooding was 2x stronger than it is now but it was possible to have only one) from a Midway 4 minutes after the game starts, you should really like the CV rework.

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

If you never experienced instant deletion of your destroyer by a Hukaryu with 3 torpedo squadrons making it impossible to dodge 1 minute 30 seconds after the battle starts, you should really like the CV rework. 

 

1 minute and 30 seconds is an impossible time for an RTS CV to strike based off of initial service and flight time alone.

A reworked CV on the other hand can actually kill you within a minute and 30 seconds of the match starting depending on how lucky he is. In fact depending on map size it can happen faster.

 

1 hour ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

If you never experienced instant deletion of your battleship by a 2 torpedo squadron and a bomber waiting after you repair your flooding (flooding was 2x stronger than it is now but it was possible to have only one) from a Midway 4 minutes after the game starts, you should really like the CV rework.

 

You seem under the misconception that RTS CVs have higher damage output than reworked CVs. This is untrue. While RTS CVs delivered more alpha strike, reworked CVs more than make up for it based on sheer RoF alone.

You can read a very basic comparison here:

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/122388-comparison-rts-vs-reworked-cvs/

[anonym_8AYJrnybhu0v]

Przed chwilą, El2aZeR napisał:

 

1 minute and 30 seconds is an impossible time for an RTS CV to strike based off of initial service and flight time alone.

A reworked CV on the other hand can actually kill you within a minute and 30 seconds of the match starting depending on how lucky he is. In fact depending on map size it can happen faster.

 

 

You seem under the misconception that RTS CVs have higher damage output than reworked CVs. This is untrue. While RTS CVs delivered more alpha strike, reworked CVs more than make up for it based on sheer RoF alone.

You can read a very basic comparison here:

https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/122388-comparison-rts-vs-reworked-cvs/

RTS

First strike: 1 min 42 seconds
 

Nice comparision but far from reality, come one, you tested on afk bots:

1. T10 CVS were much faster i think (i cannot find the data, maybe someone can help?), you compared T8.
2. DDs going forward at speed 40knots +
3. You didnt hit all your torps.
 

[El2aZeR]

4 minutes ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

Nice comparision but far from reality, come one, you tested on afk bots

 

And I chose the smallest map in the game to do so. A map that a T8 CV would never see. Despite that I still needed 1 3/4 minutes for a first strike.

If I were to fly across a normal high tier map or, god forbid, one of the older iterations of Islands of Ice as it still exists in the CN client it'd take minutes.

 

4 minutes ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

1. T10 CVS were much faster i think (i cannot find the data, maybe someone can help?), you compared T8.

 

And reworked CVs are even faster.

RTS Haku TBs: 164kn

RTS Haku DBs: 161kn

RTS Midway TBs: 136kn

RTS Midway DBs: 156kn

 

So ironically RTS T10 bombers are comparable or way slower when stacked up against reworked Enterprise planes. And reworked Enterprise planes are on the slower side of the spectrum.

 

10 minutes ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

2. DDs going forward at speed 40knots +

 

While this does shorten the flight distance, it still doesn't grant a kill in the timeframe you seek.

To put this into perspective, a Haku needs about a minute to service and launch her TBs to begin with. And that's if you start out with them.

 

12 minutes ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

3. You didnt hit all your torps.

 

It's simply not possible to hit all torps on any target with RTS Enterprise TBs. The spread is bigger than a GK.

[anonym_8AYJrnybhu0v]

Przed chwilą, El2aZeR napisał:

 

And I chose the smallest map in the game to do so. A map that a T8 CV would never see. Despite that I still needed 1 3/4 minutes for a first strike.

If I were to fly across a normal high tier map or, god forbid, one of the older iterations of Islands of Ice as it still exists in the CN client it'd take minutes.

 

 

And reworked CVs are even faster.

RTS Haku TBs: 164kn

RTS Haku DBs: 161kn

RTS Midway TBs: 136kn

RTS Midway DBs: 156kn

 

So ironically RTS T10 bombers are comparable or way slower when stacked up against reworked Enterprise planes. And reworked Enterprise planes are on the slower side of the spectrum.

 

 

While this does shorten the flight distance, it still doesn't grant a kill in the timeframe you seek.

To put this into perspective, a Haku needs about a minute to service and launch her TBs to begin with. And that's if you start out with them.

 

 

It's simply not possible to hit all torps on any target with RTS Enterprise TBs. The spread is bigger than a GK.

Hmm take a look, 2 minutes strike, 4 minutes 100k dmg on a battleship. All torpedos hit. Unlucky with only 2 fires :)
Then 7minutes into game, solo deleted Yamato. Later torping Shima (12min), and these torps didnt do like 3k dmg to destroyers, but 8k + right?
The bombers 3 squds, wait for dd to repair and hit again, easy (Kagero). Just look at these bombers dmg. Meanwhile perma spotting a DD with fighters or empty squadron... CV was the king of the sea then. 6:20 3 fires with a single squadron? Not to mention a good drop means you cannot dodge a torp in a DD.
 

3 fires at Yamato then torps = flooding = 15k from 3 torps, 33k from flooding. Shortly after another drop of 6 torps and Yama dead.
Look the drops after that hit both Yama and Kurfurst. Haku had 4 torps in 3 squads, each dealing for ex. 5.5k dmg to Kurfurst.
Yes you could hit all but it was really rarely seen, but with good drop it was 10 torps = 55k dmg in a drop.

 

Numbers dont lie but how you show them does, take for example GDP as a measurment of quality of life when 1% makes 90% of GDP.

[mtm78]

Lul, REEwork failed, CV's still king ( those not dumb enough to fly into flak ) and ONLY battleships benefit, yet reroll claims that every CV player knew how to cross drop DD's ( gladly this wasn't the case ). 

 

1 hour ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

RTS

First strike: 1 min 42 seconds
 

Nice comparision but far from reality, come one, you tested on afk bots:

1. T10 CVS were much faster i think (i cannot find the data, maybe someone can help?), you compared T8.
2. DDs going forward at speed 40knots +
3. You didnt hit all your torps.
 

 

Great formatting again man, very readable. 

 

Mhm... listen to El2 who I know to be an excellent player who knows his mechanics and can explain every step of his reasoning, or ....   CV still king... just BB's are less affected, since no more dev strikes. But thanks for letting me up my post count again, would you like a nice picture to go with it?

 

And the DD which got cross dropped... well if you see a competitive CV player on other flank, perhaps don't try and go alone... just like people advice now. Since if you stayed with a DFAA cruiser/destroyer, cross dropping suddenly becomes pretty tough for most carrier players.... 

 

And the BB which died in first strike, GOOD RIDDENS. He was not paying attention to minimap and forming up with a DFAA cruiser, why should we care about babies which think their BB's should be able to survive being attacked by carriers on his own.... ow crap, that's what REEWork was intended to fix right... now BBabies can  feel like  and ignore their cruisers plea for support, they don't need no pesky cruisers to defend them from CV's no more.... 

[El2aZeR]

39 minutes ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

Numbers dont lie but how you show them does, take for example GDP as a measurment of quality of life when 1% makes 90% of GDP.

 

Indeed, so tell me this:

How OLD are those vids?

 

Because if you had actually done your research you'd know those are not representative of the last days of the RTS iteration.

[anonym_8AYJrnybhu0v]

Przed chwilą, mtm78 napisał:

Mhm... listen to El2 who I know to be an excellent player who knows his mechanics and can explain every step of his reasoning, or ....   CV still king... just BB's are less affected, since no more dev strikes. But thanks for letting me up my post count again, would you like a nice picture to go with it?

We have a nice conversation i guess. Each of us writing what we think, trying to prove their thoughts in a fashion, not an agressive way, looking for truth, at least from my side, beacuse what ruins this world are these that have taken authority as the truth instead of truth as the authority.

[anonym_8AYJrnybhu0v]

Przed chwilą, El2aZeR napisał:

 

Indeed, so tell me this:

How OLD are those vids?

 

Because if you had actually done your research you'd know those are not representative of the last days of the RTS iteration.

Could you please share your research and show some of these videos?

[mtm78]

6 minutes ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

We have a nice conversation i guess. Each of us writing what we think, trying to prove their thoughts in a fashion, not an agressive way, looking for truth, at least from my side, beacuse what ruins this world are these that have taken authority as the truth instead of truth as the authority.

 

Could you stop messing with formatting, if you quote people they don't suddenly have an almost unreadable text you're reacting to. Otherwise I like this quote, to bad you first started attacking my post count instead of focusing on your 'truth' or actual content itself. 

 

6 minutes ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

Could you please share your research and show some of these videos?

Why are you not capable of doing your own? 

[El2aZeR]

6 minutes ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

Could you please share your research and show some of these videos?

 

Better yet, I can play a match right now if you wish.

Just gimme up to 20 mins and I'll report back.

[El2aZeR]

Alrighty, here we have my Saipan. Saipan is the only RTS USN CV left that has T9 TBs which do 155kn. They also service way faster at 15 seconds and there are only two which cuts down on launch time.

The match I got was on which I believe is the outright smallest map this ship can see in terms of spawns (Trident). The enemy team only had a single DD, a Shinonome without SE. Gamemode was Epicenter which practically eliminates the need to search for the enemy DD.

Enemy CV was also afk eliminating the need to watch for fighters which could've easily denied my strike.

Result?

Spoiler

 

To prove that I'm not bullting you with the plane speed stat:

 

So in a RTS CV which possesses among the fastest launch times and fastest plane speeds on the smallest possible map and a favorable gamemode it STILL took me 1:30 mins to get a first strike.

Given that T10 RTS CVs

- face bigger maps

- need far more launching time

- have only marginally higher speed in case of the Haku or significantly lower speed in case of the Midway

- face DDs that can actually survive up to 3 or so torp hits AND become no-fly-zones

 

I think it's pretty safe to say that T10 RTS CVs needed more time than 1:30 mins to get a first strike on a DD.

 

Also I could've probably gotten this kill way faster in a reworked Enterprise or Shokaku.

[Allied_Winter]

Alrighty folks: Thread reopened.

 

Stay on topic and refrain from just spamming or adding non-constrcutive posts! 

[anonym_8AYJrnybhu0v]

Przed chwilą, El2aZeR napisał:

It STILL took me 1:30 mins to get a first strike.
I think it's pretty safe to say that T10 RTS CVs needed more time than 1:30 mins to get a first strike on a DD.

Where is this video from? It is fresh from some kind of test server with old CVS or you just uploaded old footage?

Here's exactly 1min 40sec Shima is deleted, with a faster ship it is 1:30 no probs. Are you saying that after this video is made there were nerfs and this is not actually how it looked like before the rework? What was changed then?

 

[Bellegar]

19 minutes ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

Where is this video from? It is fresh from some kind of test server with old CVS or you just uploaded old footage

 

He plays on China server, which never got to experience the CV rework

 

(they're stuck on 0.7.3 I believe, @El2aZeR should be able to confirm)

[El2aZeR]

22 minutes ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

Where is this video from? It is fresh from some kind of test server with old CVS or you just uploaded old footage?

 

It's fresh from the Chinese server. They're still on 0.7.3. I just played that match.

The vid you posted is from 2017. Again.

 

If I were to list the nerfs WG hammered CVs with (for good reason) since 2017 I'd be sitting here all day doing nothing else.

Because 2017 was a year where quite literally every major and the majority of minor patches included some nerf to CVs. It became a meme called "Year of the CV".

 

22 minutes ago, ToxicCommunityToxicDevs said:

with a faster ship it is 1:30 no probs.

 

You'll find one DD that's significantly faster in the T10 bracket in the relevant versions.

Not to mention that Shima heavily misplayed. If you want to set up a true cross drop you're gonna need more time than that.

And no SE ofc.

 

Even if it were possible tho, a reworked CV can do the same thing.

[mtm78]

53 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Not to mention that Shima heavily misplayed. If you want to set up a true cross drop you're gonna need more time than that.

 

This. 

 

My Shima would not die from that attack, he was panicking. 

^{* I would probably die from the proper crossdrop I know you can pull off, but that Shima going there and putting that island to his right making absolutely clear he was going to sit there broadside since he can't turn.. nah}

[Bellegar]

8 hours ago, Allied_Winter said:

Alrighty folks: Thread reopened.

 

Stay on topic and refrain from just spamming or adding non-constrcutive posts! 

Just checking... did you mean to unpin the thread? If not, could you pin it again?

[Allied_Winter]

12 minutes ago, Bellegar said:

did you mean to unpin the thread?

 

Yes that was done intentionally by us.

 

Excavatus explained it here:

Quote

Hello residents of CV discussion topic.

Today, this topic is losing its pinned status,

new and specific CV topics will not be closed.

But regular CV whining will be directed or merged into this one again!

 

All loving mod!

Source: