CV Rework Discussion

[Padds01]

39 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

he other major gripe I have is late game influence of CV's, still giving them ability for people to get 15% higher WR with CV's as with other classes combined ( not Padds, it's only 7% there ). 

oh damn i thought i was better with CV's than that , am i even at 50% ? i find it hard to believe my DD/BB rate is over 40%

 

40 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

I also see DD's doing stuff, but it's by far not always 'right'. You will never get rid of DD's from queue because guess what, lots of those players already moved from one class to destroyers since those don't have citadels. But you do play destroyers, don't you notice in game how much influence you are able to have on a game compared to when playing your carriers? 

well no i dont , but then i tend to be the second person to die when i play DD ;) but i do take your point. CV's probably do have more influence , they are certainly unique in they become more influential as the game goes on. 

 

were straying into a different question here, we have been talking about if CV's prevent DD's doing thier stuff. were now moving into do both class's have the same influence. i agree i dont think they do, but is that a problem? i mean does balance need to worry about equal influence , i would say affective (to a reasonable degree) and fun to play. are more on point. if DD's are less influential than  CV so long as the teams have the same of both is that an issue? personally im fine with it.

 

46 minutes ago, FerrowTheFox said:

Well, when I play I usually see mostly 2 DDs about, one of them usually being me. And of course you CAN still play DD, but it's gotten a lot more stressful and just oftentimes not fun. I'd even say infuriating. There are matches where the CV just leaves you alone, and others where you are send back to port without any contribution whatsoever, because the CV actively searched for you and whithered you down. As lord @El2aZeR has said many a time, it's not about the surface ship doing a good job at dodging the planes, it's about whether the CV player knows what he's doing or not. Best you can hope for is an incompetent enemy CV skipper who farms away at BBs rather than look for you. But a good CV player will usually focus on DDs first (or when a cap suddenly turns), place fighters above you and harrass you without much chance of real counterplay or just spot you for his team to kill you.

 

And of course as a (still learning, average) DD main my perspective of the problem is clearly different from a BB or CV player, but believe me, its gotten to the point where I sometimes ask myself why I bother to get good in them...The whole class has taken a huge slap to the face of their core gameplay and gotten even more difficult to play effectively.

 

ok lot to unpack there , difficulty is a theme running through it , and id agree that DD is way harder to play than CV, myself i dont see that as a problem. again so long as both can contribute and are fun thats ok with me , infact i like it.

of course  DD is going to find a CV frustrating, as i find DD's frustrating when i BB , and they annoy me when im a Cruiser. and i get it ive caught plenty of DD's int eh opening minutes and sent them straight to port either from my damage or spotting. i usually feel like they made themselves a target they over extended , but i am aware im seeing this from one side. it could well be CV's exert too much control it could be the meta needs to shift and taking caps needs to be a more team wide function. one thing ive suggested myself is a CV's planes should not reveal a ship in the main view to the team only to the minimap , infact i think firing at things you yourself can not see should be a lot less affective generally. 

it is probably true there is no way for a target to avoid EL2's attacks, but the odds of the CV player being that good are what? 1/1000? less? if the CV player is just as good as me , you can mitigate a lot of the damage with maneuvering

[CptBarney]

7 hours ago, Europizza said:

Almost 400 pages of success 

Bingo!

 

We have a winner!

 

 

 

---

 

Next goal 1000 pages when Support CV's arrive!

 

I hope DD's become less painful again at somepoint, learning to hide in the french ones is painful atm.

[mtm78]

47 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

were now moving into do both class's have the same influence. i agree i dont think they do, but is that a problem? i mean does balance need to worry about equal influence , i would say affective (to a reasonable degree) and fun to play. are more on point. if DD's are less influential than  CV so long as the teams have the same of both is that an issue? personally im fine with it.

 

I'm not fine with it at all. I work hard for my win rate with all my ships, why should it be easier with one class as with another? But I do admit people can say I am biased, I don't play CV's and I do play DD's, so my opinion on if either and if so which one should be more influential wouldn't be worth much for most people. 

 

I can pull off on average about the same win rate on cruisers, destroyers and battleships so far, if we both agree CV's are easier to be influential in, what is my effort worth in those other ships?

54 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

it is probably true there is no way for a target to avoid EL2's attacks, but the odds of the CV player being that good are what? 1/1000? less? if the CV player is just as good as me , you can mitigate a lot of the damage with maneuvering

So the toxic experience of meeting such a player which the game doesn't allow you any real counterplay for is taken for granted since it's rare? Also, while I agree he's server top, even meeting a mere average player padding his way to blue/purple in CV's is unfair and thus not good gamedesign. No other player should have such crutches. 

[AndyHill]

One of the failures in the CV design is that other ships basically still have to play like they would otherwise. The blob of death is a pretty effective CV-deterrent and I've had bad matches personally against them - because they lose the game so fast that there's no time to farm.

 

DDs still have to play aggressively, BBs need to look for crossfires and cruisers have no choice but to support the DDs or otherwise look for forward positions in places where they risk instant deletion when I spot them. If they do anything else, the enemy CV has already won. And when the carrier gets to them, they get crabbed on by an immortal and invincible force for doing the right thing.

 

Basically when I'm in a CV I first go where the red DDs should go if they want to play well. If they are there, I will screw them over and if they're not where they're supposed to be, that's also a win for me. Without risking one of my precious hitpoints or even significant amounts of time or effort in return. Same goes for all other ships, but as the vanguard of any fleet, DDs are the first on the line of fire. 

 

This toxic class simply has to go, there is no other option anymore. The rework is a complete unsalvageable failure with no redeeming features. Also I don't give a ship about what the spreadsheets say, I'm trying to run a clan and I'm literally losing people because of carriers - and I'm pretty certain I'm not the only one.

[AirSupremacy]

I do wonder if the CV bantering will continue with Uboats popping up at the surface in random matches.

Maybe it needs a few more new ship types and weapon systems in the game.

[mtm78]

Just now, AirSupremacy said:

I do wonder if the CV bantering will continue with Uboats popping up at the surface in random matches.

Maybe it needs a few more new ship types and weapon systems in the game.

 

I do wonder when the people who disregard statistical proof and examples of how gameplay of other classes is negatively affected will stop call those who are critical 'bantering'. 

 

And subs are a joke, whoever still doesn't see right now can have this game if that joke ever get's to be the default game mode. 

 

 

[Yedwy]

Dude you do realise subs will be in randoms before the chrismas 2020? There are far 2 many potential premiums to be passed by WG

[FerrowTheFox]

Vor 1 Stunde, Padds01 sagte:

ok lot to unpack there , difficulty is a theme running through it , and id agree that DD is way harder to play than CV, myself i dont see that as a problem. again so long as both can contribute and are fun thats ok with me , infact i like it.

of course  DD is going to find a CV frustrating, as i find DD's frustrating when i BB , and they annoy me when im a Cruiser. and i get it ive caught plenty of DD's int eh opening minutes and sent them straight to port either from my damage or spotting. i usually feel like they made themselves a target they over extended , but i am aware im seeing this from one side. it could well be CV's exert too much control it could be the meta needs to shift and taking caps needs to be a more team wide function. one thing ive suggested myself is a CV's planes should not reveal a ship in the main view to the team only to the minimap , infact i think firing at things you yourself can not see should be a lot less affective generally. 

it is probably true there is no way for a target to avoid EL2's attacks, but the odds of the CV player being that good are what? 1/1000? less? if the CV player is just as good as me , you can mitigate a lot of the damage with maneuvering

 

1. Ok, firstly, I'd like to address the "finding your counter annoying" part, because the actual counter to DDs are supposed to be CAs outfitted with radar and hydro and of course gun DDs. And while I find the abundance of radar and hydro on almost every new cruiser line a bit questionable, I usually can at least try and mitigate it. If I see a radar cruiser, I can try and bait the radar or stay clear of him. With my speed I can quickly relocate to other positions and try to punch where there's no cruiser cover. And if I actually get radared I can still run for hard cover. Lastly, I can wait for the enemy cruiser cover to die and be effective in late game.

 

Apart from CVs being an addition the the list of DD counters, none of this is possible with them. Planes can strike me anywhere and at their leisure or at least spot me. There's no outrunning them, getting behind hard cover or just relocating somewhere else. And waiting for late game is even worse, as the influence of CVs gets bigger with less AA cover and depleting HP pools. Also, what's the counter to CVs then? ^^

 

2. Secondly, the whole positioning thing: My question to this would be, where would you consider a DD not making himself a target? (Trick question sorry :P)

I guess you generally look for them in front of the fleet and around caps when playing CV, right? So I'd need to avoid those areas. And then while I hang back and thus can't screen against enemy DDs and torps and provide spotting, I'd rightfully get an earful from my team for not doing my job. So I can either do my job and risk getting your attention, or be completely useless. Either way, the CV has won: Either being able to strike / spot me or completely mitigating my impact.

 

But since I don't really play CV, please if you have tips for where I should hide from you, tell me :D

 

3. Sadly, maneuvering aganist planes is still mostly dependant on the CVs skill and oftentimes you still take SOME damage regardless. Also, the thing is that it's not specifically just players like El2aZeR or Sunleader who are able to excell in CVs, but complete average players as well. Even if the CV messes up a bomb run, he can be back with another strike within a short time. So even if he only hits 1 out of 3 drops, he can just come over and over and over until he succeeds.

Specifically in this regard I've always felt the RTS CVs better. After you dodged an attack, it took a bit of time until the next strike giving you time to relocate.

 

Btw., I would like to say I appreciate the good manners of discussion, that's pretty rare

 

[mtm78]

23 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

Dude you do realise subs will be in randoms before the chrismas 2020? There are far 2 many potential premiums to be passed by WG

 

Dude you realise I'm not the only one who would quit the game and stop being paying loyal costumers to WG for life? WG can make their money elsewhere then :) 

 

edit: I would like subs to be added as scenario type gamemode, not pvp. What they been showing so far on their test server has only proved I'm right, and the only reason I am not entering that thread to 'discuss' submarines is because I most likely would not be able to contain my sarcasm over which type of players like what see so far. 

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, Padds01 said:

i mean does balance need to worry about equal influence , i would say affective (to a reasonable degree) and fun to play. are more on point.

 

And herein lies the issue. Reworked CVs cannot be effective and fun to play without being gamebreakingly overpowered as recently proven.

 

2 hours ago, Padds01 said:

it is probably true there is no way for a target to avoid EL2's attacks, but the odds of the CV player being that good are what? 1/1000? less? if the CV player is just as good as me , you can mitigate a lot of the damage with maneuvering

 

And why, pray tell, does that matter? You don't judge a ship's potential by looking how the weakest players perform in them.

Also yes, damage mirigation. In a game where damage avoidance is paramount. This does nothing but prove our point. There is no counterplay to CVs. You either take damage or take more damage.

 

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, AirSupremacy said:

I do wonder if the CV bantering will continue with Uboats popping up at the surface in random matches.

Maybe it needs a few more new ship types and weapon systems in the game.

It will never end. People like to "banter" and the Rework is a huge change, which gives a lot space for that, it's not like changing one Captain Skill or something like that.

[Yedwy]

1 hour ago, mtm78 said:

I would like subs to be added as scenario type gamemode, not pvp. What they been showing so far on their test server has only proved I'm right, and the only reason I am not entering that thread to 'discuss' submarines is because I most likely would not be able to contain my sarcasm over which type of players like what see so far. 

Agree wholehartedly 

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It will never end. People like to "banter" and the Rework is a huge change, which gives a lot space for that, it's not like changing one Captain Skill or something like that.

 

This is Wrong and has been Proven Wrong.

During 0.8.5 were AA was not that far away from Pretty Good Balancing. This Topic and the CV Topics in General had pretty much Died. And only a few People were Talking about CVs in General.

So apparently. People do Stop it if they are more or less Satisfied with the Situation.

 

But right now they are not.

In the current Situation with CVs being so Overpowered that a T8 CV is worth more than 3 T10 Battleships. There is of course no way that People will ever go Silent on it.

So Complains will get worse and worse the longer CVs remain Overpowered. And until CVs are Properly Balanced the only way for these Complaints to Stop. Is if the Players leave the game entirely.

 

 

[mtm78]

5 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

This is Wrong and has been Proven Wrong.

During 0.8.5 were AA was not that far away from Pretty Good Balancing. This Topic and the CV Topics in General had pretty much Died. And only a few People were Talking about CVs in General.

So apparently. People do Stop it if they are more or less Satisfied with the Situation.

 

Just as I will not leave if subs only become an optional mode. 

[Aixin]

Vor 4 Stunden, mtm78 sagte:

 

I think it's way to hard to deplane CV's, that's one. Then, removing influence / SKILL from DFAA influencing drop patterns, that was terrible. I have learned how I can minimize rocket plane damage reasonably well in a fast ( moving ) destroyer, except against enterprise since it has an easier aiming mechanic. I am still getting hit, but it's way more manageable. Sadly this is only true in late game where my predictable maneuvering isn't punished by enemy surface players. 

 

I mainly dislike how CV can still park squad on my head and my destroyer AA just can't shoot it down, making me perma spotted. The other major gripe I have is late game influence of CV's, still giving them ability for people to get 15% higher WR with CV's as with other classes combined ( not Padds, it's only 7% there ). 

 

 

 

 

Yes but actually no. Only good cv players can do so. And not even above any dd. It's normal that good cv players can do so. Look at it. A good dd player can do the very same thing. He can spot me without being spotted back. Well at least against bbs and cruisers. He also can spot stuff to death. That a CV can park above a Shima is thanks to the non-existing aa and bursts. But really you can't park above a gearing without losing planes. And you can't park longer than 30 seconds as all planes would be dead than. Bad cvs can't park at all as they would constantly fly into your clouds. 

[El2aZeR]

37 minutes ago, Karotte_marksman said:

He also can spot stuff to death. That a CV can park above a Shima is thanks to the non-existing aa and bursts. But really you can't park above a gearing without losing planes.

 

Except a CV will spot and deal unavoidable crippling damage at the same time. A DD may spot but it's easy to avoid their damage capabilities aka torps. And if they fire their guns they risk return fire.

Besides, DDs tend to be very busy fighting each other as well. Also radar and hydro exist and are effective.

There is counterplay to DDs unlike CVs.

 

Also flak stops spawning at 3.5km. All RFs only need 3km to make an attack run. If you're trying to hide with your AA shut off and enable it only once planes get close enough, as so many people advocate, that means flak will engage precisely... never.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

This is Wrong and has been Proven Wrong.

During 0.8.5 were AA was not that far away from Pretty Good Balancing. This Topic and the CV Topics in General had pretty much Died. And only a few People were Talking about CVs in General.

So apparently. People do Stop it if they are more or less Satisfied with the Situation.

 

But right now they are not.

In the current Situation with CVs being so Overpowered that a T8 CV is worth more than 3 T10 Battleships. There is of course no way that People will ever go Silent on it.

So Complains will get worse and worse the longer CVs remain Overpowered. And until CVs are Properly Balanced the only way for these Complaints to Stop. Is if the Players leave the game entirely.

 

 

What I said is not wrong. People won't stop bantering, or did it stop about radar, HE-Spam etc?

 

[mtm78]

4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Also flak stops spawning at 3.5km. All RFs only need 3km to make an attack run. If you're trying to hide with your AA shut off and enable it only once planes get close enough, as so many people advocate, that means flak will engage precisely... never.

 

But it is still the best way to mitigate damage, since I have 2.5km air detection that 500 meter depending on angle will enable some mitigation. Having my flak on means nothing if a good player will evade it anyway, it just gives them a longer attack run meaning I have almost zero chance to mitigate a substantial amount. 

 

2 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

People won't stop bantering, or did it stop about radar, HE-Spam etc?

 

It's a lil bit more as banter, about REEwork and certainly about adding submarines. 

[Yedwy]

40 minutes ago, Karotte_marksman said:

He can spot me without being spotted back. Well at least against bbs and cruisers. He also can spot stuff to death. 

Yes he can, but then again there are several cruisers that you really dont want to spot becouse seeing them means you are dead...

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, mtm78 said:

It's a lil bit more as banter, about REEwork and certainly about adding submarines. 

That's why I added that huge changes give more space, because they have more impact and are more noticeable. If someone changes the impact agnle of AP for some ships for 5°, most people wouldn't even know or notice.

[mtm78]

Just now, Pikkozoikum said:

That's why I added that huge changes give more space, because they have more impact and are more noticeable. If someone changes the impact agnle of AP for some ships for 5°, most people wouldn't even know or notice.

 

True, but calling it banter classifies it as 'irrelevant' and while I know this is true, it makes this whole forum / community thing a bit of a moot point. Banter does not cover the reasoning and arguments displayed in this discussion from a lot of different sources and different angles. The REEwork is one thing, but the total new game by trying to shoehorn submarines.. ow man. 

 

I did not grind my ships, pay for premium time, bought premium ships, did closed testing, participated in supertesting, and now have all those 'investments' turned into poo because you can't trust a publisher/developer to keep their word... I was talking with someone in Alpha testers lounge on ts, haven't spoken to him in ages, and first thing we thought about when talking about current state of affairs, were all the discussions we had in the past about how submarines don't fit in the game. I won't go on and repeat the same arguments over and over, but I can say without lying or fronting that I will not spend a dime on any WG product again if they devalue all my investments in WoWs that way. 

 

 

[El2aZeR]

17 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

But it is still the best way to mitigate damage, since I have 2.5km air detection that 500 meter depending on angle will enable some mitigation. Having my flak on means nothing if a good player will evade it anyway, it just gives them a longer attack run meaning I have almost zero chance to mitigate a substantial amount.

 

Indeed.

It does however prove his point about "bad CV players will just die to flak" wrong.

 

Not to mention Gearing AA is actually pathetic, being equivalent to some T6 ships.

[AndyHill]

A DD (or any other ship) can only spot certain regions of the map at a time and moving around takes ages. They also tend to have some trouble seeing through (or sailing through) obstacles such as islands. The flip side of DDs' ability to stay hidden rather effectively is that they have to stay hidden or risk instant death. And the world is a rather dangerous place for a DD with opposite side DDs hunting and spotting you as well as all the radars, hydros and so on.

 

It would be interesting to see stats on the survival ratio and spotting numbers for different kinds of ships. Who here would like to bet against my claim if I state that DDs tend to spot less than carriers and have a somewhat higher chance of getting killed during the process? Being an aggressive DD, going forward and in general doing your job as a DD is probably the most dangerous thing to do in the game, whereas doing whatever you want with a CV is by far and wide the safest way to play.

[Pikkozoikum]

1 minute ago, AndyHill said:

A DD (or any other ship) can only spot certain regions of the map at a time and moving around takes ages. They also tend to have some trouble seeing through (or sailing through) obstacles such as islands. The flip side of DDs' ability to stay hidden rather effectively is that they have to stay hidden or risk instant death. And the world is a rather dangerous place for a DD with opposite side DDs hunting and spotting you as well as all the radars, hydros and so on.

 

It would be interesting to see stats on the survival ratio and spotting numbers for different kinds of ships. Who here would like to bet against my claim if I state that DDs tend to spot less than carriers and have a somewhat higher chance of getting killed during the process? Being an aggressive DD, going forward and in general doing your job as a DD is probably the most dangerous thing to do in the game, whereas doing whatever you want with a CV is by far and wide the safest way to play.

I saw just once, that the spotting damage of CVs decreased with the rework.

 

Actually I would assume that the survival ratio is kinda the same, because dds often manage to die pretty fast. I mean if one dd moves towards another, one often sinks, or at least gets heavy damaged. I mean it depends often on the situation, but you know what I mean.

 

I looked it up here:

(2019 - 2 months)

 

(2018 - 2 months)

[AndyHill]

So, (if I read the table correctly) a high tier DD spots about half of what a carrier does, does half the damage of a carrier and dies for its trouble in more than two games out of three whereas the carrier survives all but one of four. The only thing left for the DDs to try to outdo a CV in a battle is to cap. Now did I just imagine lots of people trying to tell me that DDs should not try to cap aggressively in carrier games because it's too dangerous, or was I just imagining things?