CV Rework Discussion

[Yedwy]

MiG 19 at T4 me thinks

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 31 Minuten, CptBarney sagte:

boooogue!

 

I wonder what the russian cv's will be loike? Unless wargaming does a sneaky and adds in flying croissants or supersonic spagehetti first.

 

@L0V3_and_PE4CE wot do ya think?

 

'w'

 

 

Russian CV's will likely have fast plane restoration as a gimmick. Since they produced quantity instead of quality. Squishy planes, fast restoration, very fast rockets (the ammunition, like graf zeppelin rockets which reach the target very fast). Torps will be the high alpha like jap but slow as Midway, 3 per drop. Bombs will be like UK but drop like HE/AP, many small bombs with low pen. 

[CptBarney]

1 minute ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Russian CV's will likely have fast plane restoration as a gimmick. Since they produced quantity instead of quality. Squishy planes, fast restoration, very fast rockets (the ammunition, like graf zeppelin rockets which reach the target very fast). Torps will be the high alpha like jap but slow as Midway, 3 per drop. Bombs will be like UK but drop like HE/AP, many small bombs with low pen. 

I managed to find 4 designs wargaming could use for the russian cv's.

 

One even looks loike miss hosho! yay!

 

One kinda looks like booogue as well.

 

'w'/

 

The german bb thread has gone mental, apprently they were thinking of 800mm guns for the H45 proposal lol.

 

suprised sunleader isn't here yet.

[MadBadDave]

4 hours ago, Yedwy said:

1. Ships with good AA are nowdays often not the same ships that were in RTS era ans there were changes even during rework, you need to read up on tr specs and/or practice more...

 

2. Becouse he cits you while you dont do it, you need to practice more to see what altutude will get you best results with a given cv vs a given target...

 

3. Sounds as you dont read the situation properly of you get sunk alot, IMO there are few good positions on every map for a cv to park there so its protected from incoming long range fire and is reasonably close to action, if you insist on roaming around you better pay close attention to the map and its not always easy while flying around...

 

4. Becouse they practiced, and practiced and practiced some more...

1. Static target practice in training room, 4-5 times, the same with moving target, then over a dozen in co-op, before first random. 

 

2. Cits are not a problem I’m coming from the disgruntled T8 BB driver that sees a huge chunk of HP taken  off by a T6 having flown thru my AA flack bubble and fighter screen).   Bismarck gets hit with tall boys, my cvs (3), drop eggs.

 

3. I get sunk a lot because of team mates, (whole team sunk), re the spotting I do etc. I’ve only been sunk once because of poor positioning, my biggest criticism of cv players is that they hide and make no attempt to cap, plus most of the camping carriers spend most of the game flying to the target, I prefer to be on target as much as possible.

 

4. Agreed practice makes perfect, but I got this game to play with warships that engage in hand to hand combat, imho there is nothing better than watching 2 BBs square up and fight to the death.  Cvs are a temporary break to see how I can best combat them when in my T8 BB’s (research if you like).

[SvR1983]

Did any nerfs occur over night?

 

Started today my first Hosho battle with a half empty squadron of torpedo bombers (3 instead of 6). AA seemed to get much better as well.

[Lebedjev]

Japanese aircraft carrier Hosho, tier IV:

• New torpedoes Type 91 mod. 0 have been installed instead of the old Type 91 mod. 1. The new torpedoes speed will be 40 knots instead of 50.

• Reduced the returning speed of torpedo bombers to the aircraft carrier by 40%.

Due to a high cruising and returning speed for Torpedo Bombers, experienced players that avoided aircraft losses could solely use Torpedo Bombers. Both changes listed above will increase the amount of damage taken by Torpedo Bombers (the climb after the attack will be slower, and to effectively attack Torpedo Bombers will have to fly closer to their target). The new speed will also reduce the effectiveness of Torpedo Bombers against destroyers as it gives them the opportunity to manoeuvre and evade.

Strong Torpedo Bombers is one of the main features of the Japanese aircraft carriers, which we would like to preserve. With these changes, we plan to balance the performance of tier IV carriers, but will also continue to monitor the situation and, if necessary, make further changes.

[MadBadDave]

As if to vindicate my opinion, another post about Hosho, from someone else and just played a game in Alabama with an AA rating of 90, game dominated by a GZ who killed me, after I killed 3 reds; Bismarck, Hipper and Aoba, so with a 90 rating and fighter how many planes got thru, most of them, and yet t4 cv vs Phoenix (AA of 10 with C Hull), knocks more down, I don’t care how much dodging and weaving anybody does, that is not right !!.

 

ZERO of Gz’s planes should have got.

[CptBarney]

1 minute ago, MadBadDave said:

As if to vindicate my opinion, another post about Hosho, from someone else and just played a game in Alabama with an AA rating of 90, game dominated by a GZ who killed me, after I killed 3 reds; Bismarck, Hipper and Aoba, so with a 90 rating and fighter how many planes got thru, most of them, and yet t4 cv vs Phoenix (AA of 10 with C Hull), knocks more down, I don’t care how much dodging and weaving anybody does, that is not right !!.

 

ZERO of Gz’s planes should have got.

Did you get HE spammed at any point?

[MadBadDave]

You mean did I have any repairs left, I did, and had my AA been destroyed: no. 

 

Thats the other reason I think cvs are op; BB AA does take a knock throughout the game, planes do not, if it’s a winning cv all it’s planes are in tact, a BB’s AA won’t be.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

I reset my IJN lines, and unlocked on the T8 IJN carrier. Today it actually hit me: I can't phantom having to grind 300k XP in this mind numbingly boring 'fun and engaging carrier gameplay'. I think I might loose my remaining braincells over them. It's is the only line I regret resetting: carriers. God these things are stupid. It's like WOWP designers penetrated our realm.

[Panocek]

9 hours ago, Yedwy said:

MiG 19 at T4 me thinks

nah, WG already have perfect tier 4 aircraft for Balans Carriers.

Spoiler

https://worldofwarplanes.eu/warplanes/ussr/i-15bis-dm2/

 

Yes, thats a biplane with rocket boosters

 

[Mstraat]

CV permanently spotting a DD is so [edited]. And then even with AA on they still do 6K damage to DD's. Experienced this in Grozovoi, Daring and Yueyang. CV's hunting DD's is so [edited]toxic. Just how the [edited]is CV balanced against a class that relies a lot on its concealment? Good luck out running planes…. you cannot avoid them.

 

Edit: Post edited. Please abide the forum rules.

[BLUB__BLUB]

On 9/25/2019 at 6:07 PM, El2aZeR said:

Very simple, there is no such thing as a target you cannot attack. Even in a bottom tier CV.

Any perceived difficulties is entirely the player's fault and therefore a git gud issue, not a balancing issue.

I have attacked an Alaska with Furious... twice... 

No I don't mean two flights. I mean two smacks on same flight. 

First flight with torps, then another with rockets. He ran. 

 

Hit two torps, got a perma-fire. Too bad my team got ROFLSTOMPED again.

I'm not even close to being good, though.

 

 

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

Almost 400 pages of success 

[Padds01]

On 9/27/2019 at 11:10 PM, Mstraat said:

CV permanently spotting a DD is so [edited]. And then even with AA on they still do 6K damage to DD's. Experienced this in Grozovoi, Daring and Yueyang. CV's hunting DD's is so [edited]toxic. Just how the [edited]is CV balanced against a class that relies a lot on its concealment? Good luck out running planes…. you cannot avoid them.

 

Given its been such a staple of thier play since the rework , do you not think it might be a design choice? part of the reason they exist is to discourage DD's running off alone . is it so different a situation than a lone BB would face with a DD on them. unless they happen to be faster than the DD they simply cant ever spot them. a BB goes off alone drives in a straight line at a constant speed gets farmed its the BB needs to l2p. but a DD runs off alone without smoke gets farmed by a CV and CV's are cancerous, bit of a double standard in my eyes

 

 

On 9/27/2019 at 4:44 PM, MadBadDave said:

As if to vindicate my opinion, another post about Hosho, from someone else and just played a game in Alabama with an AA rating of 90, game dominated by a GZ who killed me, after I killed 3 reds; Bismarck, Hipper and Aoba, so with a 90 rating and fighter how many planes got thru, most of them, and yet t4 cv vs Phoenix (AA of 10 with C Hull), knocks more down, I don’t care how much dodging and weaving anybody does, that is not right !!.

 

ZERO of Gz’s planes should have got.

 

Well think about it from a dev point of view, whats it going to do to the CV game if there are simply ships that are complete no go's . its going to ruin it, so instead they aim to make situations which any ship can be in or out of based on gameplay where they are either safe or not.  Alone is vulnerable no matter what ship your in damn near any CV player can get you. the more friendly ships AA cloud your in the safer you get.  Myself i find just 2 overlapping clouds cause prohibitively large attrition to be something i can do for long. 3 boats in range , im not going in. 

 

fighters .. dont really work atm sure give em a go , but dont expect them to be much more than a mild disincentive

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, Padds01 said:

Given its been such a staple of thier play since the rework , do you not think it might be a design choice? part of the reason they exist is to discourage DD's running off alone . is it so different a situation than a lone BB would face with a DD on them. unless they happen to be faster than the DD they simply cant ever spot them. a BB goes off alone drives in a straight line at a constant speed gets farmed its the BB needs to l2p. but a DD runs off alone without smoke gets farmed by a CV and CV's are cancerous, bit of a double standard in my eyes

I think purpose of permanent spotting and AA unable to fend off on your own is to simply curb those pesky uniscums, flanking, stealth torping, abusing islands and doing all kinds of nasty stuff to Main Audience in battleships

[El2aZeR]

31 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

Given its been such a staple of thier play since the rework , do you not think it might be a design choice?

 

Then why play a DD?

There is quite literally nothing a DD does that a reworked CV does not do better.

 

31 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

Alone is vulnerable no matter what ship your in damn near any CV player can get you. the more friendly ships AA cloud your in the safer you get. 

 

While technically true, it requires ludicrous amounts of AA to deny strikes in the rework. Just a few days ago I slapped a Minotaur around despite it being covered by a Smolensk and a Benham.

In a Shokaku.

 

As such this statement is intellectually dishonest to the extreme. Just because you yourself are incapable of such feats doesn't mean it applies to CVs in general.

[mtm78]

10 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

Given its been such a staple of thier play since the rework , do you not think it might be a design choice? part of the reason they exist is to discourage DD's running off alone . is it so different a situation than a lone BB would face with a DD on them. unless they happen to be faster than the DD they simply cant ever spot them. a BB goes off alone drives in a straight line at a constant speed gets farmed its the BB needs to l2p. but a DD runs off alone without smoke gets farmed by a CV and CV's are cancerous, bit of a double standard in my eyes

 

Problem with that is that DD's actually are supposed to play for objectives, BB.... yeah supposed to do stuff... but what * ( speaking from general playerbase ). 

 

If you look at the domination maps, BBs still go to their 'channels' where they think it's their job to brawl with enemy BB's, when their JOB actually is zone control and denying cruisers to hunt their destroyers...

 

Ow wait, almost each game has 4-5 BB's and maybe one or two cruisers.. yeah.. idk... seems this game has bigger problems :)

8 minutes ago, Panocek said:

I think purpose of permanent spotting and AA unable to fend off on your own is to simply curb those pesky uniscums, flanking, stealth torping, abusing islands and doing all kinds of nasty stuff to Main Audience in battleships

Yeah that's what I was going to say.. 

[FerrowTheFox]

Vor 3 Stunden, Padds01 sagte:

Given its been such a staple of thier play since the rework , do you not think it might be a design choice? part of the reason they exist is to discourage DD's running off alone . is it so different a situation than a lone BB would face with a DD on them. unless they happen to be faster than the DD they simply cant ever spot them. a BB goes off alone drives in a straight line at a constant speed gets farmed its the BB needs to l2p. but a DD runs off alone without smoke gets farmed by a CV and CV's are cancerous, bit of a double standard in my eyes

As others have said before, why play a DD at all then? DDs tools are concealment and speed. If DDs have to stick to the CAs, or even BBs, because they actually have the best AA, speed is meaningless. And if concealment is constantly negated by CV spotting, it is also meaningless. A spotted DD can't flank and thus not get good torp runs. Apart from that "running off alone" (not in the sense of border spamming shimas) is basically the DDs job! Scout, cap, flank. If they're now just general fire support vessels, a cruiser will do that better all the time.

 

And as for the flawed comparison there: BBs who get torped for running in a straight line are 100% at fault, because they can anticipate from where torps are most likely to come (channels, caps, last known position of DD) and more importantly, just use the OP tool of WASD once in a while. Even if they get hit BBs can just heal. A DD can of course anticipate where the planes will most likely go as well, but it doesn't matter because these lightning fast planes can scout half the map regardless of where they try to go. Even if a DD doesn't yolorush a cap in the first minutes and waits for the planes to be on the opposite end of the map, as soon as he caps he broadcasts his location. And if detected there goes half their HP and unlike BBs most DDs can't heal.

[Padds01]

52 minutes ago, FerrowTheFox said:

As others have said before, why play a DD at all then? DDs tools are concealment and speed. If DDs have to stick to the CAs, or even BBs, because they actually have the best AA, speed is meaningless. And if concealment is constantly negated by CV spotting, it is also meaningless. A spotted DD can't flank and thus not get good torp runs. Apart from that "running off alone" (not in the sense of border spamming shimas) is basically the DDs job! Scout, cap, flank. If they're now just general fire support vessels, a cruiser will do that better all the time.

 

 

i really dont know, but i still see DD's in game doing DD stuff, there are sizeable differences between CV and DD scouting though , like DD can cap and see torps. and usually you need more than one scout, i see DD's in nearly every game , some have adapted and learnt to do thier thing with CV's about and some i farm. you would need to ask the them.

 

[mtm78]

12 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

 

i really dont know, but i still see DD's in game doing DD stuff, there are sizeable differences between CV and DD scouting though , like DD can cap and see torps. and usually you need more than one scout, i see DD's in nearly every game , some have adapted and learnt to do thier thing with CV's about and some i farm. you would need to ask the them.

 

I understand why you defend the only class you're performing well in, but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to not at least try to be as influential in your own destroyers as you are in your carriers before claiming it's 'bad DD players' and not a broken CV implementation?

 

It would make your statement a bit easier to digest. So I look forward to seeing you boost your DD win rate to the same levels as your carriers. 

[Aixin]

Vor 8 Minuten, mtm78 sagte:

I understand why you defend the only class you're performing well in, but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to not at least try to be as influential in your own destroyers as you are in your carriers before claiming it's 'bad DD players' and not a broken CV implementation?

 

It would make your statement a bit easier to digest. So I look forward to seeing you boost your DD win rate to the same levels as your carriers. 

The only problem are those rockets..... If they would not be as strong vs dd's it would be fine. The whole concept behind rockets is flawed af. I suck at dd's. I won't be ever be able to perform as good as with cvs. Actually after I played cvs I got better in any class somehow. 

[Padds01]

4 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

I understand why you defend the only class you're performing well in, but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to not at least try to be as influential in your own destroyers as you are in your carriers before claiming it's 'bad DD players' and not a broken CV implementation?

yeah i get that, its why i tried to stay away from it.  where the balance lies here i have no comment on all i am saying is i still see DD's in game , i still see DD's doing DD stuff.  

 

 

 

[mtm78]

1 minute ago, Karotte_marksman said:

The only problem are those rockets..... If they would not be as strong vs dd's it would be fine. The whole concept behind rockets is flawed af. I suck at dd's. I won't be ever be able to perform as good as with cvs. Actually after I played cvs I got better in any class somehow. 

 

I think it's way to hard to deplane CV's, that's one. Then, removing influence / SKILL from DFAA influencing drop patterns, that was terrible. I have learned how I can minimize rocket plane damage reasonably well in a fast ( moving ) destroyer, except against enterprise since it has an easier aiming mechanic. I am still getting hit, but it's way more manageable. Sadly this is only true in late game where my predictable maneuvering isn't punished by enemy surface players. 

 

I mainly dislike how CV can still park squad on my head and my destroyer AA just can't shoot it down, making me perma spotted. The other major gripe I have is late game influence of CV's, still giving them ability for people to get 15% higher WR with CV's as with other classes combined ( not Padds, it's only 7% there ). 

 

5 minutes ago, Padds01 said:

yeah i get that, its why i tried to stay away from it.  where the balance lies here i have no comment on all i am saying is i still see DD's in game , i still see DD's doing DD stuff. 

 

I also see DD's doing stuff, but it's by far not always 'right'. You will never get rid of DD's from queue because guess what, lots of those players already moved from one class to destroyers since those don't have citadels. But you do play destroyers, don't you notice in game how much influence you are able to have on a game compared to when playing your carriers? 

 

 

 

 

[FerrowTheFox]

Vor 13 Minuten, Padds01 sagte:

i really dont know, but i still see DD's in game doing DD stuff, there are sizeable differences between CV and DD scouting though , like DD can cap and see torps. and usually you need more than one scout, i see DD's in nearly every game , some have adapted and learnt to do thier thing with CV's about and some i farm. you would need to ask the them.

Well, when I play I usually see mostly 2 DDs about, one of them usually being me. And of course you CAN still play DD, but it's gotten a lot more stressful and just oftentimes not fun. I'd even say infuriating. There are matches where the CV just leaves you alone, and others where you are send back to port without any contribution whatsoever, because the CV actively searched for you and whithered you down. As lord @El2aZeR has said many a time, it's not about the surface ship doing a good job at dodging the planes, it's about whether the CV player knows what he's doing or not. Best you can hope for is an incompetent enemy CV skipper who farms away at BBs rather than look for you. But a good CV player will usually focus on DDs first (or when a cap suddenly turns), place fighters above you and harrass you without much chance of real counterplay or just spot you for his team to kill you.

 

And of course as a (still learning, average) DD main my perspective of the problem is clearly different from a BB or CV player, but believe me, its gotten to the point where I sometimes ask myself why I bother to get good in them...The whole class has taken a huge slap to the face of their core gameplay and gotten even more difficult to play effectively.