CV Rework Discussion

[AirSupremacy]

22 hours ago, Puffin_ said:

How would you rate T10 CV's now. What to go for and which is not worth the grind.

If you will be so kind 

They all have their joyful specialities :)

 

[mtm78]

19 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I remember a game in Yubari vs 2 CVs. They wasted their time on me, while I had >50k AA damage =)

 

How many patches ago was this?

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

How many patches ago was this?

 

Likely in 0.8.5 or 0.8.6 as the back there AA was actually useful.

And Yubari especially if using AA Defensive Consumable was actually Capable of Dealing Damage to Planes.

 

Right now I can usually Empty the whole Squadron above an Yubari without any Problems or Risks of losing Planes.

[KillStealBoss]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

Likely in 0.8.5 or 0.8.6 as the back there AA was actually useful.

And Yubari especially if using AA Defensive Consumable was actually Capable of Dealing Damage to Planes.

 

Right now I can usually Empty the whole Squadron above an Yubari without any Problems or Risks of losing Planes.

Well the T4 planes hp is stupid. Maybe they made it for.... Ark Royal? Idk.

[Sunleader]

56 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Well the T4 planes hp is stupid. Maybe they made it for.... Ark Royal? Idk.

 

Nope its still the exactly same thing as Before.

Wargaming goes only by Numbers and Spreadsheet.

And as CVs are Underplayed Wargaming wants to make them more Attractive.

So T4 needs to be extremely Attractive to new Players to Join the CV Line.

 

But in T4 the Normal Player Wargaming Expects. Is a Complete Noob. Who will 9 of 10 Times Miss Enemy Ships with his Drops even if that Ship does not even Try to Evade.

So how do you make sure that this Noob somehow still manages to get his 10-20k Damage done ?

Simple. You first Increase the amount of Ordnance Dropped. Thats why we now got 2 Torpedoes. This way you make it easier to Hit. And second you increase the Damage output. Thats why T4 CVs have similar Alpha Damages as T6 CVs. This way the few Hits you do will actually do more Damage.

Moreover. In T4 Players have no Idea how to Evade AA or what an AA Range is. So as these Players constantly Cross into AA Ranges and will likely Strafe AA Ships going right into Heavy Flak Bursts.

So to make sure he will actually reach the Target he wanted to go for. He needs Tough Planes which despite being Pretty Slow will make it to the Target.

 

And for Noobs. Which mostly will miss you and which constantly keep flying slowly through your Flak Bursts. This is Perfectly Fine.

Because they wont really do much with this. They will do their 10-20k Damage maybe 30-40k in a Good Game when they had a few Lucky Hits or towards the last Battles when they are about to get their T6 CV.  And then will be gone to T6.

 

Now the Problem is of course something that you can only See when your a Player actually plays the game and thus does not give a **** about Spreadsheets as Generally he just thinks about how to best abuser whatever Advantage the Game gives you.

Because you See. Your not the Player who is Supposed to be here. And before the Hosho became Overpowered you did not actually Play Hosho that much as that the Spreadsheet would care about you :)

 

 

And well thats where we are now.

We got a New Research thing to Reset Trees. And a Range of Low Tier CVs which are 100% easy Mode because Wargaming wants to Attract People into CV lines.

So well. Guess where you will Suddenly Find a whole Number of Experienced Players Spending their time.....

 

And while the above is of course fine for Noobs.

When an Experienced Player. Who will Hit 9 of 10 Times with his Drops. And who will Generally know how to avoid AA. This suddenly becomes a Terrible Problem.

Because you Suddenly got a Player who will do 20k and more Damage for each Squadron he Sends out. And who can constantly Send out his High Damage Squadrons because he wont really lose any Aircraft during his Attacks.

 

 

 

Albeit lets be Honest.

This is not Limited to T4.

After 0.8.5 the Spreadsheet Said.

OH MY GOD. All the Noobs Stopped Playing CVs because they dont get 500k Average Damage without any Effort.

We must Nerf AA so that every Noob is Guaranteed to reach the Target again.

 

Thanks to that. The current AA even on T8 and T10 is extremely Weak after the Nerf.

70% of wether you Win or not Depends on the CV.

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Noone:

@mtm78 : a simple statement

@Sunleader : Writes a scientific article about the simple statement blowing the forum pages to pieces with a proud WOT

 

@L0V3_and_PE4CE :

Getting mc Arthur and mtm mixed up

[mtm78]

It's not like WG has ever listened to 388 pages of feedback, so I feel Sun's wall of text messages are a bit lost here and there. Even if he's right sometimes :P

 

Getting hard to stay motivated and interested, the current state of Hosho and WG claiming everything is fine.... 3 CV games are fine, we should all just stop whining about it and play, or move on I guess.

[mariouus]

23 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Imagine 3 BBs are shooting at one target :-|

 

6 hours ago, Capra76 said:

3 BBs shooting at one target, the target has usually misplayed.

Being shot at by 3.BB is not uncommon. It is very common in fact. Not necessarily too dangerous, when you are ready for it.

 

 

[mcboernester]

40 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Getting hard to stay motivated and interested, the current state of Hosho and WG claiming everything is fine.... 3 CV games are fine, we should all just stop whining about it and play, or move on I guess.

Though I appreciate all kinda Sorts of Dissatisfaction towards the current State of CVs this is not true. Neither did they say 1+ CV games are fine (remember, they already fixed it for T8 and T10) nor are they satisfied with hosho's performance, they already admitted that she's overbuffed now. 

[mtm78]

Really? You claiming WG thinks 3cv games are not good but couldn't find a programmer willing and able to sneak a 'hey let's limit it' in the current patch? WG didn't know in time that Hosho is killing the fun at low tiers specifically? They didn't have the time or resources to fix it in time for the current patch? 

 

I don't give a rats behind about blanket statements made, they also said there will be no submarines remember ;)

 

 

 

[CptBarney]

wat did i miss ladz?

[mtm78]

Your bowl of popcorn isn't big enough I fear. Fresh air did me good, I got the flue but nothing will stop me from being angry at the internet! Rather that then start the game, take out my grinded AA destroyer Grozovoi and get shat on by tier 8 carriers, or heck I got this girl called Melon she used to scare the bejesus out off carrier players and now they laugh at her even when she is using her extra button.

 

Forum doesn't do karma you know, no fears here

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

[CptBarney]

13 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Your bowl of popcorn isn't big enough I fear. Fresh air did me good, I got the flue but nothing will stop me from being angry at the internet! Rather that then start the game, take out my grinded AA destroyer Grozovoi and get shat on by tier 8 carriers, or heck I got this girl called Melon she used to scare the bejesus out off carrier players and now they laugh at her even when she is using her extra button.

 

Forum doesn't do karma you know, no fears here

 

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Never understood why they nerfed cruiser and DD AA while buffing BB AA. Unless they want to add in dedicated AA frigates, heavy frigates, corvettes, DDs, Heavy DD's and light cruisers.

[KillStealBoss]

3 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Thanks to that. The current AA even on T8 and T10 is extremely Weak after the Nerf.

70% of wether you Win or not Depends on the CV.

 

Idk I shot down 24 planes on Kléber . T10 ones. This doesn’t have any flak, just continuous dpm.

[KillStealBoss]

3 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Noone:

@mtm78 : a simple statement

@Sunleader : Writes a scientific article about the simple statement blowing the forum pages to pieces with a proud WOT

 

@L0V3_and_PE4CE :

Getting mc Arthur and mtm mixed up

Nah I’m not mixed. He said pretty much the truth. Though AA isn’t that weak as he says, needs to time well the sector usement. Ofc this means you have to remember AA ranges which most people.... don’t. 

[Pikkozoikum]

7 hours ago, mtm78 said:

 

How many patches ago was this?

0.8.7. - if that was the patch with the new sector system

[Pikkozoikum]

3 hours ago, mariouus said:

Being shot at by 3.BB is not uncommon. It is very common in fact. Not necessarily too dangerous, when you are ready for it.

You could say the same against 3 CVs. Also 3 BBs can "one" shot some ships on low tier. Especially if I compare that with Yubari. A bb can hurt from any angle, it's most about luck to survive or not, it's easier to surive a CV. At least for me

[Sunleader]

27 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Nah I’m not mixed. He said pretty much the truth. Though AA isn’t that weak as he says, needs to time well the sector usement. Ofc this means you have to remember AA ranges which most people.... don’t. 

 

No it really is.
Last Week when this came up I actually wanted to see how this works and Tested this a Bit in the Training Room.

 

Had a friend take his Shokaku and try to Bomb me in the Hipper which is Fully AA Specced.

He is not a Good CV Player but he is good enough to Hit and he does know how to evade Heavy for most Part to get not Deleted by the Flak Bursts.

 

In the First Round I did completely Ignore the Sector. So I did not Press the Sector at all. Instead Simply trying to move and make myself Hard to Hit.

In the Second Round I did always use the Sector as soon as I saw Damage Numbers from my DPS Pop up on his Aircraft and tried to keep him in the Sector where I pressed.

 

 

But the Effects are Extremely Limited.

In terms of Attacks Carried out per Squadron nothing Changed.

He managed 2 Attacks per Squadron of Rockets or Dive Bombers. And 3 Attacks with the Torpedo Squadron.

 

The only Difference between using the Sector or not using the Sector. Was that I Shot down 1 Additional Aircraft of his Squadron for the Rocket and the Dive Bombers. And 2 Additional Aircraft for his Torpedo Bombers.

For Rockets and Dive Bombers I shot down 3 Aircraft without Sector. And 4 when using the Sector. Most of these Kills were done on Retreating Aircraft.

For the Torpedo Bombers I actually shot down 4 Aircraft without Sector. And 6 when using the Sector. Which seems to be mostly due to the Fact that due to him doing 3 Attacks I could Actually use the Sector Twice on him. The Second Sector use is even less Efficient as it deals barely any Damage due to there only being few Aircraft left. But thanks to it after the 3rd Drop the retreating 2 Aircraft usually got Shot down before gaining Immunity.

 

 

 

So in Total.

Using the Sector gives you no Feasible Advantage in the Attack itself as the Number the Enemy CV can Attack you Remains entirely the same regardless of using the Sector or not. It merely gives you some Extra Damage and in Average 1 Additional Aircraft Kill.

At least if your a Hipper which is AA Specced.

If you got much more DPS like Mino or Worcester I am sure it might make some more. As you got Higher DPS Value to begin with.

If you got less DPS like most other Cruisers you will likely get even less Difference cause your Base DPS is lower.

 

 

 

 

[mariouus]

8 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You could say the same against 3 CVs

Nope. BBs do not travel at 150-200.knots. They can not choose witch side they are on in a hurry, nor can they switch sides fast. They can not correct fire until the very end. They can not spot you, unless you have really screwed up.

 

If a CV is attacking you, YOU can do almost nothing. Most of it dependes Enemy CV being bad.

[anonym_WEP5XVijirBx]

Well, I often see people still travelling alone instead of close together, even in non-domination games... and they expect to not get punished by CV?

Look, there is suitable counterplay against CV's. And you know what... it's also the best strategy in all games, domination or not..

 

This tactic is effective even without CV's. Nothing beats a big group of ships except another big group of ships aiming better - or DD long range torps.

[Sunleader]

32 minutes ago, Liquiel said:

Well, I often see people still travelling alone instead of close together, even in non-domination games... and they expect to not get punished by CV?

Look, there is suitable counterplay against CV's. And you know what... it's also the best strategy in all games, domination or not..

 

This tactic is effective even without CV's. Nothing beats a big group of ships except another big group of ships aiming better - or DD long range torps.

 

Yeah. Lemming Train for the Win. Who had ever tought that there was such an Easy Tactic to Solve all Problems. Why has nobody ever tought of that ????

Oh Right......

[Capra76]

1 hour ago, Liquiel said:

Well, I often see people still travelling alone instead of close together, even in non-domination games... and they expect to not get punished by CV?

Look, there is suitable counterplay against CV's. And you know what... it's also the best strategy in all games, domination or not..

 

This tactic is effective even without CV's. Nothing beats a big group of ships except another big group of ships aiming better - or DD long range torps.

 

The words of a man who doesn't undertand the game and has played over half of his in CV.

[Nibenay78]

1 hour ago, Liquiel said:

Well, I often see people still travelling alone instead of close together, even in non-domination games... and they expect to not get punished by CV?

Look, there is suitable counterplay against CV's. And you know what... it's also the best strategy in all games, domination or not..

 

This tactic is effective even without CV's. Nothing beats a big group of ships except another big group of ships aiming better - or DD long range torps.

 

Lets assume we all like to toot forward in a big blob. No flanking, positioning or ambushes. I mean it's nothing is like just going on and killing the enemy with focused bow on spam!

Until a shima flanks you and you and your team eat 15x20k torps in the side. Given he didn't die from CV spam.

[Major_Damage225]

Can someone explayin something concerning the CV's, and that is well, a Shimakaze shooting down 50 planes from a Midway.

Ok it was coop match but still,  50 planes by a Shima?!......i was grinding the flags, and seeing the plane number i was ''error 404''

I admit i didnt pay mutch attention to the AA mechanics work lately, since it has been all over the place lately.

Spoiler

 

[Sunleader]

3 hours ago, Major_Damage225 said:

Can someone explayin something concerning the CV's, and that is well, a Shimakaze shooting down 50 planes from a Midway.

Ok it was coop match but still,  50 planes by a Shima?!......i was grinding the flags, and seeing the plane number i was ''error 404''

I admit i didnt pay mutch attention to the AA mechanics work lately, since it has been all over the place lately.

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Same Reason why its so easy to have a 100% Winrate in Coop Battles.

Just like all Coop Ships. Coop CVs dont use any Upgrades or Skills. They dont use Motorboost and just like Coop Ships just Drive Straight towards you they basicly Fly Straight into your Heavy AA.

So any Ship that has at least some Heavy AA will usually Delete the Squadron Attacking them as it just keeps flying the Black Puffs.

Moreover their Ability to Drop Bombs and Torpedoes is Horrible. Most of the Time the AI will miss you even if you dont do anything.