CV Rework Discussion

[CptBarney]

Me:

 

 

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Dragonstrikerorigin:

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mtm:

 

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L0V3_und_PE4CE:

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Sunleader:

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El2azer:

 

 

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other peeps:

 

 

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I think i got perfection down of everyones mood atm.

[mtm78]

Just now, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

I dont understand what exactly you mean by that? Do you mean you joined ST before me? Well that would be a suprise because i'm in the ST program for more then 2 Year's but alright.

Regarding subs, I think the are cool and what not but the don't fit at all into PVP. So the should just have operations for them etc... (that's a completet topic but hey.)

 

I left before you joined perhaps? I don't remember you, I think you were in the group joining right after I left. Are you trying to imply I am lying? I was in there for one and a half years but alright.

 

We agree on submarines, that's nice :)

 

2 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

Well i will be honest. In regards of the Grozevoi. She has some problems. Meaning her AA looks good but does nothing. The problem that i find myself in especially the Groze is that she just does not actually have the AA power that she used to have. So We could argue about her being kinda in the loop hole because other dd's that are very good in AA are still good like Friesland or Kidd etc.....

It is the best AAA destroyer I have, at least she was when I unlocked her. And yeah I do get it could resolve in a discussion where it's just Grozo not living up to her name anymore, another way of WG to get people to grind the new lines or buy a Kidd / Friesland I guess :(

 

4 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

Well i can handle most of the attack's and i dont really care about it to much but i find it very funny how you say that i'm whining and tell people to spec for AA since AAA is a batterie(just joke aside). I just state the obivous maybe you are not the one that it will be obious to do but i see it sooo many times in Random games where the DD just ether is not at all AA or just does not want to turn off the AA.

While this is true, and CV's are also played by very bad people so it isn't 'bad' in each game, when you meet a good CV and you're not in a Kidd or in a Friesland, you can't tell me you like how rocket planes have added so much value to the game I bet?

 

5 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

Here we go again. I could not care less if RTS or the current system is in place. In the old system i still deleted a DD in less 3 min. Of the start of the game aka devstruck him. Or non stop spotting accross the map the hole time and no one can stop me. Because AS haku was fun. The bigger issue that i have is yes Rocket planes are kinda stupid to deal a crap ton of dmg against DD's with not much effort. On the other hand if you see CV why are you running by yourself? IF people talk about history then yes look up. No fleet let the DD run around by himself to do hunting missions and if the get send out (most of the time multiple DD's at a time) then the where scouting the area. But yeah running around in videogame by yourself in pvp is total normal.

This has a core issue which you might be right about, I still go to much alone and try to do the same DD things I used to do, or the same old flanking cruiser thing. It just doesn't work that well anymore and this bothers the hell out of me. Someone told me the core gameplay has not changed since I started playing again, but ow boy do I disagree.

 

7 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

Well believe or not but i will harder to crack then anyone you can meet ;)

Seems you can hold your own, maybe you did think I was shaming you, I was just saying I am still glad I left. This discussion gets to me, I really liked the 'old game' and I am not sure I am still liking it now. I hope you understand, I invested a lot in this game hoping it would keep me engaged for a long time. 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

@CptBarney

Europizza:

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

9 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

I dont like the Idea to Nerf the Damage of CVs further. It already has Fairly Low Damage. And the thing is. A Blank Damage Nerf always means that Literally Everyone in that Class is Hurt.

Sure you can Put CV Damage even Lower. it will Alleviate the Complaints about CVs. But at the same Time CVs will start to Feel Useless and then Complain.

I might not Sound like it that Often. But I actually want CV Players to be Happy with the Situation as well. I want CVs to not be Overpowered. I dont want CVs to be useless.

That's the hardes part about CV's because if you take away to much you will make useless. IF you take away not enough you still make them feel like not rewarding what so ever (T4 is a pain because of that) If you take away not enough the still dominate.

It is one of the hardest things to balance right. To make even good and bad players happy it will need some fundamental changes in regards of how the work if you still want to implement a skill gap.

Like if you make something ez to play for the and the good. Of course the good will become even better and the do consistantly well. While the bad are pretty useless but still have good games.

If you make it more complicate we have the situation as in RTS again. The Team with the better cv player wins done.

This is fundamental issue with CV. Making AA again higher and lower will not solve the fundamental issue but the new system can change that. Like i said. Change the numbers a bit of the dmg in regards of what you can do with rockets can make the game feel already better. I saw already people saying nerv the speed to 30 knots (how the [edited]are the flying then) but it will change anything.

I think wargaming is atleast trying to keep us happy even tough people don't believe that (me included) but yeah. We can't expect them to change a new system always because it will not give out the bigger picture.

 

16 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Thats 1% on your Second Highest. Its 5% and more to the Others.

Well my RTS is mainly so good because i was master in SC2 and the new is pretty good because i always go after objectives and work as team. Of course yes my winrate in CV's but still O.o 

 

17 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

A. CV can Strike Whoever he Wants. And thus can Choose Importand Targets to for example Finish them or Block Them etc etc.

B. A CV can Ruin any Attempt at Sneak Attacks by Spotting and keeping your Spotted. Which is Especially Lethal for DDs.

C. You cannot take Cover against a CV. A CV does not care if your in Cover or out of Range of all others. You will never be outside Range or in Cover against a CV.

That's true for that reason we have only 1 CV per team. Imagine you 3 like in WoT Arty. Have fun. Yes CV's are pretty annoying to deal with and the can respond fast on each flank but always with the new system with delay. Should we take away for example speed. Then there will be many issues because then the dmg goes down Very fast and yeah like i said hard to balance.

Regarding caver yeah but i think sometimes it's funny how dd's start smoking up when the getting striked already the 3th time. Like you saw them coming why are you hidding in your smoke????

 

20 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Thats what Broke the Enemies Neck there.

Not the Damage Dealt. But the Timing and Targets it was Dealt to.

I Systematically Removed Threats and kept my Team in an Advantage.

An Ability CVs take to the Maximum.

 

You just cant do this with other Classes.

Your bound to Targets in your Range and with Line of Fire to them.

That's true but on the same time there is certain comp that litterly throw's the game towards your team in the favor. Where the enemie team can't do much against that. Fun fact those comps don't have CV's. So yeah i complettly understand what you mean and yes that is definitly strong in the right situation. On the other hand the enemie could have player more differntly etc...

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

17 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

I left before you joined perhaps? I don't remember you, I think you were in the group joining right after I left. Are you trying to imply I am lying? I was in there for one and a half years but alright.

 

We agree on submarines, that's nice :)

I dont know to be honest. I believe maybe you where there when i was also an ST but i mainly was testing on live and sometimes on the ST server but yeah we have quite a lot of people and thinking about we might have missed each other probably.

And no i'm not implying that you are lying

 

18 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

It is the best AAA destroyer I have, at least she was when I unlocked her. And yeah I do get it could resolve in a discussion where it's just Grozo not living up to her name anymore, another way of WG to get people to grind the new lines or buy a Kidd / Friesland I guess :(

Well i will just say he probably got hard powercreeped. I think the need to do something about. Groze is currently a meme ship since she has on paper better AA stats but is less effective against plains then Gearing what is hilarious but also sad on the same time.

20 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

While this is true, and CV's are also played by very bad people so it isn't 'bad' in each game, when you meet a good CV and you're not in a Kidd or in a Friesland, you can't tell me you like how rocket planes have added so much value to the game I bet?

I think rockets planes when the where introduced the look funny i tought that might not work. At the moment i just think the are not good for the game because some of them are like a truck and some of them are like what happened. I think if CV's would not have rockets then the would need a different armant against DD's but on the same time yeah...... I will just say: I think the should nerve the rocket dmg and nothing more. Because rockets are mainly there to hunt dd's but on the same time it takes ages to kill a dd with it. yeah ehmmmmmmm it wierd. Because for the CV's to finish of targets its pretty good but killing a full hp DD (if you not using the amerikan Tiny Tims) it takes while. Especialy the IJN and Partial the brits.

 

Since if you leave dd's alone then the same thing happens as with the bb's vs dd situation where dd's can just bum rush a bb and just torp him in the face for no risk.

 

26 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

This has a core issue which you might be right about, I still go to much alone and try to do the same DD things I used to do, or the same old flanking cruiser thing. It just doesn't work that well anymore and this bothers the hell out of me. Someone told me the core gameplay has not changed since I started playing again, but ow boy do I disagree.

I don't think the core changed at all it's more like. Old times there where like cv's every 5-10 games once. Now the are in every game. So i think it just feels like its soo much more different.

Probably it just feels more differently now then it used to be. I still see many times shimakaze etc... able to flank without a  problem in CV games but yeah it's probably because you got used to the old system.

 

28 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Seems you can hold your own, maybe you did think I was shaming you, I was just saying I am still glad I left. This discussion gets to me, I really liked the 'old game' and I am not sure I am still liking it now. I hope you understand, I invested a lot in this game hoping it would keep me engaged for a long time.

Well looks like we just misunderstood each other. ;) If you want we can play some divisions together.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

@Sunleader

 

Come on I'm not always just trolling around. 

I could however pull a card which would prove your points! But I won't, where is the fun in you winning easily? 

 

Let's see:

 

*the people around here you mean the people who usually discuss in this topic are mostly all good because they care. Also such a little amount that is insignificant. Better look at the overall player base and their stats and then tell me again how easy CV's are to play. 

Actually don't look you'll be sad seeing those numbers. 

 

*the potato Avatar simply put more time into Saipan. Saipan also plays differently then other CV. 

 

*there is no point in trying to win an argument over you if we agree anyways. But you type more than me and someone needs to challenge you harder to find flaws one is to lazy to think about himself (me!) 

 

*now yes, CV is of course the most influential. It's powerful. But in the hands of a potato "CV" player it holds zero value. And the majority of CV players encountered are terrible. So actually CV are OP in a handful of players hands, totally fine. 

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

1 minute ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

*now yes, CV is of course the most influential. It's powerful. But in the hands of a potato "CV" player it holds zero value. And the majority of CV players encountered are terrible. So actually CV are OP in a handful of players hands, totally fine.

Here lies the bigges issues with CV's. In competent hand's the are good. So is a Montana, Yamato, GK, ZAO, Stalingrad, Conq etc...

Give the same ships to a Tomato and here lies the issue.

 

I will just say. Most player have no map awareness what so ever.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

OHHH THE LEGEND @Ishiro32 is back! 

People suspected me being your reroll or alt! Can you explain those ridicolous conclusions? 

[Ishiro32]

I decided to drop to the forums to see how things are going even though I am no longer playing and it seems like we are having same discussions as we had like 2 years ago. What a world

32 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

This is fundamental issue with CV. 

I wouldn't say it is fundamental, because it comes as a result of other elements. Elements which also were present in the old system.
1.) Passive counters to CVs
2.) CVs have almost no presence on the map after initial scouting. They are designed solely around damage. Damage, damage, damge, damage... You can't put pressure, you can't use consumables to put up a smoke, you can't cap, you can't soak damage, you can't create a presence on the map (this is a simplification a bit). You are seen, you are balanced around and you are expected to be just alpha/dps machine.

 

Those are fundamental problems because those lock you inside a situation where you have to balance specific numbers to make gamers... not furious

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, DragonstrikerOrigin sagte:

In competent hand's the are good. So is a Montana, Yamato, GK, ZAO, Stalingrad, Conq etc...

Exactly. 

[Ishiro32]

5 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

People suspected me being your reroll or alt! Can you explain those ridicolous conclusions? 

Haha, now this is something I did not expect to see. Right now I myself wonder how did you manage to be suspected of such thing. Not to mention if that comparison is even good for you. Half of my presence here was just being very loud ^^. 
Also man... almost 370 pages

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, Ishiro32 sagte:

Haha, now this is something I did not expect to see. Right now I myself wonder how did you manage to be suspected of such thing. Not to mention if that comparison is even good for you. Half of my presence here was just being very loud ^^. 
Also man... almost 370 pages

I spammed a lot of ☆♡ and saying ridicolous stuff while trolling and loving CV like a madman. 

 

Suddenly I got called Ishiro. I researched you then, read a shitton of your posts and planned to rp as you for more fun but dropped the idea because impersonating someone is against the rules I think. 

So I slowed down with the ♡☆ spam and my forum persona a bit. 

 

Best thing is, you and me aren't even speaking the same languages. 

I think one of the players who accused me of being you was @22cm

 

I will try to find a quote 

[CptBarney]

5 minutes ago, Ishiro32 said:

Haha, now this is something I did not expect to see. Right now I myself wonder how did you manage to be suspected of such thing. Not to mention if that comparison is even good for you. Half of my presence here was just being very loud ^^. 
Also man... almost 370 pages

who are you?

[mtm78]

36 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

where dd's can just bum rush a bb

 Try that with a Russian BB even with AP you do multilple overpens each salvo, and when really getting rushed so really close range I've killed DD's from full HP with one salvo of AP. 

 

16 minutes ago, Ishiro32 said:

Half of my presence here was just being very loud ^^. 

Don't lie, that was just me and my echo chamber

 

36 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

Well looks like we just misunderstood each other. ;)

Seems that way, glad we got it sorted out. I got nothing against ST btw, they do their tasks the best they can, it's not their decision to ignore or listen to feedback. 

 

36 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

I will just say: I think the should nerve the rocket dmg and nothing more. Because rockets are mainly there to hunt dd's but on the same time it takes ages to kill a dd with it. yeah ehmmmmmmm it wierd. Because for the CV's to finish of targets its pretty good but killing a full hp DD (if you not using the amerikan Tiny Tims) it takes while. Especialy the IJN and Partial the brits.

Well there is a reason I got so mad after meeting an Enterprise with a hard on for my lolibote, and I didn't get mad and quit my session after meeting a Hosho or what not, even when those low tier CV's seem to be more influential in winning games it feels like they still offer some ways of damage mitigation ( or so it feels ).

 

It is this feeling about having an influence, having a way to mitigate attacks, which I find very very lacking atm. And no I don't think it's the same as getting bum rushed as BB by a destroyer, basically that's just good play from the destroyer and more importantly bad play from the battleship player being in a position where this can happen. What a carrier does is not related to positioning since they can strike the entire map with unlimited fuel so they can even just annoy you by keeping you lit up ( just as in the past, another point of REEwork which imho isn't fixed at all ). If planes had limited range or staying power ( fuel ) I would be far less bothered with current implementation. 

16 minutes ago, Ishiro32 said:

Also man... almost 370 pages

Now tell me, start the game, do you like what you see? 

 

edit:

 

28 minutes ago, Ishiro32 said:

1.) Passive counters to CVs

 

Well AA sector reinforcement is something I like, it makes AAA more interactive at least as just pressing a button if you also have to right click your mouse and look in the general direction of the planes. Problem is the level of interaction, the results of this interaction and what CV player notices from this interaction. Flak should be thrown up in direction of player's focus, so enemy player has to dodge action initiated from other player. Continuous dps is just automated, doesn't offer anything, and current interaction between flying planes and being in a ship feels to much like it's all automation and player actions have less effect as they should have.

[Thracen]

15 hours ago, Ace42X said:

 

Running, in fast ships with a speedboost;
Hiding, in ships with great concealment, smokescreens, and the agility to weave behind islands;
and hanging by AA ships, those whose role by definition to to block planes, are terrible options?

Surely the problem is just you're playing the wrong class if you don't find DDs core selling points fun to play?

Dude I love dds, but you can't do any of this crap with a cv overhead. Most dds have maybe 30 seconds to live when caught in the open. Smokes have cool downs and no dd can out run CV spotting. Throw in radar and monsters like the smolensk, last stand and your one repair aint gonna get you out alive. 

 

Hard fact, dds are designed to run in front of their team. THEY CANNOT DO THAT WHILE CV SPOTTED. DDs can take on all commers (except cvs) if they position well and play tactically, you cannot do that when you have no way to predict if you will be spotted or not. This is the core problem, made worse by 10k rocket attacks to be sure. Again the core point is that you cannot play tactically if you have no idea if and when you will be spotted.

 

Matches with equal numbers of CVs to DDs are bad. When the CV is top tier and the dd is bottom it is the most miserable gaming experience I have ever tolerated.

 

Please refrain from straw manning me, and attacking my ability as a player. It is not helpful. You will note I will not do the same. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

If there is 1 DD per team and I'm in the game as CV I can guarantee the enemy DD is dead in 2 minutes regardless of "skill' of said DD player. 

 

 

[CptBarney]

Just now, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

If there is 1 DD per team and I'm in the game as CV I can guarantee the enemy DD is dead in 2 minutes regardless of "skill' of said DD player. 

 

 

I bet you cant do eet in implacable or audacious.

 

no seriously who is dat ishy guy hmm?

 

halp.

[mtm78]

2 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

If there is 1 DD per team and I'm in the game as CV I can guarantee the enemy DD is dead in 2 minutes regardless of "skill' of said DD player. 

 

And this is why I think this iteration of gameplay is foul. 

*yes I been crossdropped in my Shimakaze before... no it's not fun... no I don't have many options, Shima is long and easier to crossdrop as my USN DD's. But that did not happen when enemy CV was potato. Now potato CV is as dangerous as non potato CV. 

 

Also I do understand the 2m hyperbole don't worry ;)

[Capra76]

5 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Nope, just that there is a lot of whiners complaining about having to AA spec their vessels

 

Sorry for the repetition, but if you think that having to spec your entire captain/ship build around one ship that may or may not be in the game is balanced you should probably seek professional help.

[mtm78]

2 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Sorry for the repetition, but if you think that having to spec your entire captain/ship build around one ship that may or may not be in the game is balanced you should probably seek professional help.

 

Don't listen to him, he thinks I need to spec my Grozo for AAA it seems

 

Also, sadly because even potato now feels stronk in CV, you are almost guaranteed to see them. Double CV games are again common in low tiers even, especially because those are the most broken one's ( WG has to get fresh blood playing them right, so making them 'a bit' broken just ensures they can claim REEwork has been a success because more people are playing the class ). 

[Yedwy]

8 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

If there is 1 DD per team and I'm in the game as CV I can guarantee the enemy DD is dead in 2 minutes regardless of "skill' of said DD player, if he plans to actually do something other then sit in the middle of a blob

FTFY

[Panocek]

20 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Also, sadly because even potato now feels stronk in CV, you are almost guaranteed to see them. Double CV games are again common in low tiers even, especially because those are the most broken one's ( WG has to get fresh blood playing them right, so making them 'a bit' broken just ensures they can claim REEwork has been a success because more people are playing the class ). 

Also not helped by giving invite codes containing Langley to the "youtubers" to advertise the game

[mtm78]

Didn't know that, usually invite codes had a low tier premium and 3 days of premium time no? 

[Panocek]

2 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Didn't know that, usually invite codes had a low tier premium and 3 days of premium time no? 

 

 

Quote

New players will receive 1 Million Credits, the USS Langley Aircraft Carrier, 3 days premium time, and more by using my code PLAYLANGLEY2019

[mtm78]

 

Edit: alright that does it, time to create that alt account I guess