CV Rework Discussion

[1MajorKoenig]

4 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Midtier frenchies have... American gun ballistics, so staying at 13km+ means you're about as useful with these guns as Shima/20km

 

because

and

is a myth now

 

Which is true but mostly a problem with one ship - Enterprise - being stupidly good compare to the others 

[mtm78]

12 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Midtier frenchies have... American gun ballistics, so staying at 13km+ means you're about as useful with these guns as Shima/20km

 

Ballistics are a tad better as USN, Guepard was perfectly playable at max ranges playing light cruiser role putting BB's on fire and evading their return fire ( with engine boost on... ).  I also only played that role after I took care of enemy destroyers if possible, since it's not what they are really good at but they can work it if the situation allows it. 

 

edit: are there pictures somewhere showing the intended spread from rockets per nation / speshul CV like Enterprise? I would like to see the difference in a visual way, like we have with the shot dispersion mechanics where WG showed impact results of sigma changes. 

 

 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

1 hour ago, mtm78 said:

Having to manually aim in this game while you need to control your ship is a no go, the choosing direction of AA concentration is the most logical choice. 

I doubt it would be that difficult.

[mtm78]

3 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

I doubt it would be that difficult.

 

You must play a lot of battleships? Serious question, as I can't imagine a destroyer player busy evading shells and dodging torpedo's while keeping an eye on islands and on the minimap would be keen on having to manually aim their AA at the same time. 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

Just now, mtm78 said:

 

You must play a lot of battleships? Serious question, as I can't imagine a destroyer player busy evading shells and dodging torpedo's while keeping an eye on islands would be keen on having to manually aim their AA at the same time. 

No... They can leave the auto AA in, but manual control should be given most potential. I'd be happy to use it when I play a DD. 

[Panocek]

10 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Which is true but mostly a problem with one ship - Enterprise - being stupidly good compare to the others 

Which is why she was pulled from the store in usual WG fashion.

 

9 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

Ballistics are a tad better as USN, Guepard was perfectly playable at those ranges playing light cruiser role putting BB's on fire and evading their return fire ( with engine boost on... ).  I also only played that role after I took care of enemy destroyers if possible, since it's not what they are really good at but they can work it if the situation allows it. 

 

 

Sad part of Croissant DD line is your gunnery in terms of dpm doesn't really improve with tiers up, while you actually downgrade with tier 8 to the point Kagero have more pew pew

Though long barreled 139mm do have MUCH better ballistics to hit stuff. And AP pen is

[Capra76]

4 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

No... They can leave the auto AA in, but manual control should be given most potential. I'd be happy to use it when I play a DD. 

 

In which case full manual AA would just end up being another buff to BB who need it least.

[mtm78]

2 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

No... They can leave the auto AA in, but manual control should be given most potential. I'd be happy to use it when I play a DD. 

 

You are probably quite exceptional then as most will not be happy at all. It would add another task, and especially DD players imo have enough tasks already. Also, if you are as exceptional, you might be able to manage getting even better when WG gives more manual control to you, but it would only increase the skill gap making overall balance harder. 

2 minutes ago, Panocek said:

And AP pen is

While playing Guepard, there was a cheeky Budyonny which though sailing out broadside from behind his island with me at 5km was a smart thing. One reload booster later he lost all his HP.  

 

 

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, mtm78 said:

 

You are probably quite exceptional then as most will not be happy at all. It would add another task, and especially DD players imo have enough tasks already. Also, if you are as exceptional, you might be able to manage getting even better when WG gives more manual control to you, but it would only increase the skill gap making overall balance harder. 

While playing Guepard, there was a cheeky Budyonny which though sailing out broadside from behind his island with me at 5km was a smart thing. One reload booster later he lost all his HP.  

 

 

Now imagine the same at 11km

If wowsft is right, these guns compete with standard issue, russian, bias, 152mm mk1 in terms of penetration. Which kinda matches my experience so far.

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

5 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

 

In which case full manual AA would just end up being another buff to BB who need it least.

It would be a buff to all classes.

 

4 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

You are probably quite exceptional then as most will not be happy at all. It would add another task, and especially DD players imo have enough tasks already. Also, if you are as exceptional, you might be able to manage getting even better when WG gives more manual control to you, but it would only increase the skill gap making overall balance harder. 

While playing Guepard, there was a cheeky Budyonny which though sailing out broadside from behind his island with me at 5km was a smart thing. One reload booster later he lost all his HP.  

 

 

Actually currently the more skilled players get crap on by less skilled CV players, so giving them this feature would keep them at the same position they've always been.

[mtm78]

1 minute ago, Panocek said:

Now imagine the same at 11km

If wowsft is right, these guns compete with standard issue, russian, bias, 152mm mk1 in terms of penetration. Which kinda matches my experience so far.

 

I did land cit's on Molotov at those ranges but it didn't feel as reliable since he has more time to angle out. I didn't get cit's on Aoba at that range, just pen's. Even had issues with Furutaka at closer ranges, but he might been more angled. 

 

[mtm78]

1 minute ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Actually currently the more skilled players get crap on by less skilled CV players, so giving them this feature would keep them at the same position they've always been.

 

Mhm.. must think about this one.. sounds actually plausible, were it not that I don't look forward to seeing this implemented and balanced through another 2 years of development time. I imagine that IF WG would do this, it would end up buffing BB's because 'reasons' and then WG will call it done. 

[Capra76]

Just now, LemonadeWarrior said:

It would be a buff to all classes.

 

Maybe in theory, but in practice only BB would have the spare time to use it effectively, thus making it overwhelmingly a buff for them only.

[CptBarney]

And subs will only complicate that process of balans as well.

 

Enty is gud because she has insane regen, insane aim, good speed, very good mobility for her planes (making avoiding her in DD's impossible if the guy has half a brain or doesnt misclick or nudge his mouse). And very good dpm.

 

Not sure how subs will fit into this mess though. I just love how wargaming outright ignored the people that are surpossed to give them feedback, especially if its very good feedback.

 

Oh well.

[CptBarney]

Ok ladz....

 

Think it's time for meh to play miss hosho againz.

 

 

 

[Thracen]

Cv's vs dds is just god damn abuse. Nobody and I mean NOBODY enjoys being struck time after time after time for a full match. Run, hide and attach yourself to an aa ship are all just terrible options. Please fix.

[Ace42X]

53 minutes ago, Thracen said:

Run, hide and attach yourself to an aa ship are all just terrible options. Please fix.

 

Running, in fast ships with a speedboost;
Hiding, in ships with great concealment, smokescreens, and the agility to weave behind islands;
and hanging by AA ships, those whose role by definition to to block planes, are terrible options?

Surely the problem is just you're playing the wrong class if you don't find DDs core selling points fun to play?

[Capra76]

4 hours ago, CptBarney said:

Ok ladz....

 

Think it's time for meh to play miss hosho againz.

 

Am I the only one who feels their IQ drop by about 100 points just by watching that.

[CptBarney]

1 minute ago, Capra76 said:

 

Am I the only one who feels their IQ drop by about 100 points just by watching that.

Yeah, its pretty mind numbing.

 

Just as rage enducing as having four games in miss georgy were your shells go where they shouldn't!

 

(wish my teammates dodged like that most of the time..)

[mtm78]

19 minutes ago, Ace42X said:

 

Running, in fast ships with a speedboost;
Hiding, in ships with great concealment, smokescreens, and the agility to weave behind islands;
and hanging by AA ships, those whose role by definition to to block planes, are terrible options?

Surely the problem is just you're playing the wrong class if you don't find DDs core selling points fun to play?

 

Lmao.

 

Speedboost -> planes still faster, and even if they weren't speedboost is temporary

Hiding -> so being forced to not participate is a valid game option for you? 

Staying with AA ships -> You mean DD's shouldn't screen, go for caps, spot and you know try to win the game by playing the objectives is wrong, that the objective should be: stay with your AA ships ( which is bs, grozovoi is supposed to be an AA ship I shouldn't need others to protect me.

 

You call that the core selling points of DD gameplay? Can you show us how it's done then perhaps? Post some replays from your games where you showcase how 'DD gameplay' should look like. Or unhide your profile maybe? 

[Admiral_Noif]

When Kaga in T8-10 MM... no bloody chance with T6 planes vs T10 AA

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, Admiral_Noif said:

When Kaga in T8-10 MM... no bloody chance with T6 planes vs T10 AA

Have you tried to actually take planes off instead brawling with secondaries? Looking at number of shot down planes by enemy team it looks more they kept shooting down your own Combat Air Patrol instead, well, strike groups.

[Ace42X]

48 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Lmao.

 

Speedboost -> planes still faster, and even if they weren't speedboost is temporary

Hiding -> so being forced to not participate is a valid game option for you?

 

The OP said:
Nobody and I mean NOBODY enjoys being struck time after time after time for a full match. Run, hide and attach yourself to an aa ship are all just terrible options.

The implication being that running and hiding are terrible options because they don't result in "enjoyable" game play.

My point being was even if there weren't CVs in the game, running and hiding would still be DD bread-and-butter.  There's a difference between saying "these are terrible options" and "these are the usual DD options which would be perfectly acceptable, but they aren't as effective as they should be and penalise you too heavily".
We might point to DDs without smokescreens (French) or speed boosts (British); but can we point to any that lack both these, and lack decent base concealment, and decent base top-speed?

 

Quote

 

Can you show us how it's done then perhaps? Post some replays from your games where you showcase how 'DD gameplay' should look like. Or unhide your profile maybe? 

 

Firstly, ad hominem.

Secondly, my method for "showing you how it's done" would be to get into an AA-cruiser specced to shoot down planes, because when I said "Surely the problem is just you're playing the wrong class" I didn't think I was implying that means "playing the class wrong".

Thirdly, if we were to deploy your own rhetoric against your post, I'd retort "sure, right after you show me how you DD effectively whilst intentionally keeping yourself perma-spotted (no hiding) and don't withdraw from any fights (no running)."  I mean, I am sure some gunboats can work like that - I've tanked a few mil in my Pod whilst juking and keeping my guns blazing, but IIRC I had to drop the odd smokescreen or pop a speedboost to get out from underneath a few nasty incoming salvoes.

As for using AA boats as no-fly zones, I'm not saying that should be your objective - any more than I'd say that a cruiser's objective should be "find a rock you like and stick to its rear like a limpet no matter what".  It's a means to an end.
Oh, and naturally destroyers whose gimmick is as an AA boat should have good AA, that's a red herring.
 

[mtm78]

Sure I can upload some Blyskawica games, or Guepard games or Vaquelin where I been almost constantly spotted when there are enemies in my range, because I'm herrasing them from ranges where I can dodge them untill my reload booster comes of cooldown and I can 1v1 against a DD with good results. Or do you want a Khaba game? I don't even run concealment on that and it's a destroyer right? 

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

The implication being that running and hiding are terrible options because they don't result in "enjoyable" game play.

 

There is a difference in CHOOSING to do so because you need it to fulfill your intended role in the game, and being forced to do so by others while also makes your contribution to the team worthless. So your comparison is as bad as it can be thank you very much.

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

Secondly, my method for "showing you how it's done" would be to get into an AA-cruiser specced to shoot down planes, because when I said "Surely the problem is just you're playing the wrong class" I didn't think I was implying that means "playing the class wrong".

"You didn't think" doesn't mean much to me, as it's exactly what people got from your post. DD's were playing it wrong if they thought running and hiding wasn't already part of their gameplay  And if you want to shoot down planes you need a cruiser ( lol... ). 

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

As for using AA boats as no-fly zones, I'm not saying that should be your objective - any more than I'd say that a cruiser's objective should be "find a rock you like and stick to its rear like a limpet no matter what".  It's a means to an end.

 

I am not going into those discussions with hidden profiles, history has taught us it's a dangerous route to take. 

 

1 hour ago, Ace42X said:

Oh, and naturally destroyers whose gimmick is as an AA boat should have good AA

And they don't, which is why a broken tier 8 premium CV can wreck my tier X Grozovoi for 20k direct and 10k spotting damage for an entire game and survive the game as only enemy, giving a 52% wr 2k games player a 66% wr in his carrier. 

 

Maybe you should not try to focus on what you perceive to be ad-hominem, but on having actual arguments which hold up under even the slightest of scrutiny. 

 

 

[mtm78]

And just to leave this here ->

 

Total succes. Sudden skill increase with carriers just as bad, BB's got easier to play, destroyers got harder to play, and