CV Rework Discussion

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

5 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

 

Soooo he did nothing else then trying to kill you the hole time. That means he was pretty much only on a 1v1 situation. You saved your teammates from getting bombed by him so what is there the problem?

 

To be honest i just don't know why you all are crying about it.

 

His problem is that he's not playing Flappy Bird. Being harrassed a whole match by a carrier player who is so bad that he cant kill you but still manages to make it impossible for you to do anything else but dodge and trying to escape detection is just very bad game design and seriously lacking in quality. It shows one of the many levels where the carrier rework still fails flat on its face.

[CptBarney]

6 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

how about specing AA? oh wait that would be actual counterplay.

Really? how about then nerving otherships aswell. Like Conquerer but hey what am i to say.

 

Soooo he did nothing else then trying to kill you the hole time. That means he was pretty much only on a 1v1 situation. You saved your teammates from getting bombed by him so what is there the problem?

BB's are suppose to draw fire from all the enemies and the will get shout by more then 1 ship. Are the now complaining about everything?

 

To be honest i just don't know why you all are crying about it. A friend of mine did the following against 2 CV's and he dienied the entire section where he was and the rest of his team just took care of the rest of the team. So hmmmm Means if you ACTUALLY SPEAK AA then you will not have many issues against CV.

 

With only BFT and the AA upgrade but hey Specing AA is not good we need to counter CV without anything.

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Wait untill you face CV players that have more than 2 braincells put together, then you won't be so quick to judge.

 

The only reason he survived was because the person playing enterprise was clearly shite at it, otherwise had it been any of us CV players in her, that DD would of been dead in the first few mins if not almost dead, because enterprise is basically OP.

 

If i can get a kraken in a tier 8 game with miss ryujo then anything is possible too be honest and no not all the kills were just low hp kills.

 

Flak is useless when you can dodge it, and im guessing most of those planes shot down were fighters not actual bombers unless the enemy cv was that bad.

[mtm78]

9 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

how about specing AA? oh wait that would be actual counterplay.

Really? how about then nerving otherships aswell. Like Conquerer but hey what am i to say.

 

Soooo he did nothing else then trying to kill you the hole time. That means he was pretty much only on a 1v1 situation. You saved your teammates from getting bombed by him so what is there the problem?

BB's are suppose to draw fire from all the enemies and the will get shout by more then 1 ship. Are the now complaining about everything?

 

To be honest i just don't know why you all are crying about it. A friend of mine did the following against 2 CV's and he dienied the entire section where he was and the rest of his team just took care of the rest of the team. So hmmmm Means if you ACTUALLY SPEAK AA then you will not have many issues against CV.

 

With only BFT and the AA upgrade but hey Specing AA is not good we need to counter CV without anything.

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Well that explains REEwork. 

 

Also makes me glad I left ST.

 

Stop spreading [edited], Grozovoi was AA specced and I still had no counterplay options AT ALL.. can you READ? NO COUNTER PLAY OPTIONS AT ALL. Rocket planes WILL HIT YOU, you can try turning into them to minimize dmg but that's it. Death by a 1000 cuts, and NOTHING YOU CAN DO AT ALL. I spend minutes sailing around, with the CV constantly sending planes to me keeping me spotted and attacking me. 

 

Just what the BBabies were crying about for years resulting in the crap game we got now even when they actually had those counterplay options ( stay with cruisers, don't be a yolo solo 'player' and come cry you got dev struck ). And then WG shows why I had to leave ST, with you coming here spreading that absolute horse crap about Grozovoi vs Enterprise being a farm fest WITH NO COUNTERPLAY OPTIONS AT ALL but it is 'crying' because 'I need to spec for AA'. Who do you think you are that you know how my destroyer was specced? All AA modules mounted and no BFT but still had AFT on the captain. Could be more AA spec yes, if I give up all skills related to actually being a destroyer. 

 

No crying, just FACTS. Tell me what my counter play options are mister supertester, as you probably are the kind which said REEwork is working as intended right, protecting the battleships from being devstruck and making destroyer gameplay more toxic. Trying to show off games in a Kidd against some probably bad player letting his planes get farmed by smoked up Kidd, and using that to claim 'you are all crying, you just need to spec AA' 

 

Disgusting coming in here like that accusing people of not understanding the game. You think because you are allowed access to test ships you suddenly understand the game better? Don't make me laugh that''s sadly not how it works or I would still be where you are now. Or probably not, since the direction this game seems to be going is just sad. 

 

2 hours ago, CptBarney said:

Wait untill you face CV players that have more than 2 braincells put together, then you won't be so quick to judge.

 

The only reason he survived was because the person playing enterprise was clearly shite at it, otherwise had it been any of us CV players in her, that DD would of been dead in the first few mins if not almost dead, because enterprise is basically OP.

 

My 'nemesis' in that game was a 52% wr 2k games player. His win rate in Enterprise -> 66% with 80k avg damage. Says enough no? 

 

3 hours ago, Europizza said:

Being harrassed a whole match by a carrier player who is so bad that he cant kill you but still manages to make it impossible for you to do anything else but dodge and trying to escape detection is just very bad game design and seriously lacking in quality. It shows one of the many levels where the carrier rework still fails flat on its face.

 

THIS. Though eventually he did kill me, that's the thing, there was nothing I could do. Once I was on low hp and he kept lightning me up for his team I can't be so close to torp them without dying, and I can't gunboat either, I ended the game halfway 1/3rd up the way with just 33k dmg and those plane kills. 

 

Sooooo..... for running away most of the game dodging as well as I could the constant rocket spam, I got more xp as half 1/3rd my team. That's WG's 'compensation' for not being able to play the game or do anything actually enjoyable except running away the entire game knowing that eventually I will get caught. 

 

I was hoping I would feel a bigger draw to maybe start the game again today, but with posters like above especially since their feedback should matter to WG, it's just so cringe worthy I am actually closer to uninstalling after reading that as anything else. 

 

 

[CptBarney]

10 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

 

 

 

My 'nemesis' in that game was a 52% wr 2k games player. His win rate in Enterprise -> 66% with 80k avg damage. Says enough no? 

 

Not really, he could easily get that via torp bombers and the ap bombers enterprise has, might just be really shite with rocket planes. Also without KDR, Hit ratios don't really know what else hes capable of. Although enterprise is op so its easier to do well in her than any other cv.

 

considering all plane types aim differently and behave differently as well.

[DFens_666]

8 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

You saved your teammates from getting bombed by him so what is there the problem?

BB's are suppose to draw fire from all the enemies and the will get shout by more then 1 ship. Are the now complaining about everything?

 

Yes BBs complain all the time

That put aside, BBs always have the range to do something even if they would get focused by a CV (or anything else really). A DD being focused cant really do anything, unless its a 20km shima turd. There is absolutely 0 fun in playing a game like that. And it doesnt help to say "oh but he couldnt attack your teammates".

Incidently, BBs should be the prime target for CVs, yet BBs care the least for being attacked. Only AP bombs hurt a bit more if your BB actually comes with a Citadel

[mtm78]

1 hour ago, CptBarney said:

Not really, he could easily get that via torp bombers and the ap bombers enterprise has, might just be really shite with rocket planes. Also without KDR, Hit ratios don't really know what else hes capable of. Although enterprise is op so its easier to do well in her than any other cv.

 

considering all plane types aim differently and behave differently as well.

 

Yeah I didn't mean to say he was an excellent player with good target prioritization, if he was his WR in Enterprise should be more as just ~15% higher as his account average. I know it's broken, and perhaps not the best example to use in this thread, but it just sucks all the fun out of playing when you get in those situations with no counterplay options at all. 

 

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

Yes BBs complain all the time

That put aside, BBs always have the range to do something even if they would get focused by a CV (or anything else really). A DD being focused cant really do anything, unless its a 20km shima turd. There is absolutely 0 fun in playing a game like that. And it doesnt help to say "oh but he couldnt attack your teammates".

Incidently, BBs should be the prime target for CVs, yet BBs care the least for being attacked. Only AP bombs hurt a bit more if your BB actually comes with a Citadel

 

Yup, ST defending battleships as well as REEwork Gives you those warm and fuzzy feelings doesn't it? 

 

Reework total succes, the BBabies below average battleship players stopped crying about getting dev struck, and CV's are now more interested in doing dmg to other classes. Great gamedesign. 

[CptBarney]

9 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

 

Yeah I didn't mean to say he was an excellent player with good target prioritization, if he was his WR in Enterprise should be more as just ~15% higher as his account average. I know it's broken, and perhaps not the best example to use in this thread, but it just sucks all the fun out of playing when you get in those situations with no counterplay options at all.

Yeah i know what you mean though, i wouldn't mind manual aa being put into the game even if it would be detrimental to bad players, since then you could rely on skill more, although with everything else that goes on, juggling that along with positioning enemy movements, team movements firing and aiming, consumables etc. is quite a tall order too be honest.

 

Tinytims seem to be rediculous although i use HVARS mostly myself on miss lexi, which can do a lot of damage to cruisers, i use bombers for BB's and sometimes cruisers and torps for bb's mostly. I've had some ships dodge my rocket planes in miss hosho and ryujo once or twice, due to how they aim and how they fire, but prediciting where they go isn't that difficult half the time.

[mtm78]

Manual AA would not work and also not fix the problem of now not only exceptional CV players being able to kill 'AA' destroyers, but even 'average' one's. Sims was so much fun against CV's because I could spend minutes agro'ing an 'average' CV without him actually being able to sink me no matter how low my hp were at the time. Even when I noticed Enterprise was trying to attack me from the sides since his spread is pretty horizontal from his perspective, I could evade taking some damage by trying to minimize profile in his spread and I made him overshoot once but it's all for nothing because he will get me eventually. And Grozovoi is supposed to be good at fighting off planes, my captain runs aft and I have the AA modules mounted. Yes BFT would be nice, but it's pretty close to a full AAA spec for a destroyer. 

 

1. There shouldn't be a gap like 52% account and 66% Enterprise.

2. There shouldn't be a gamedesign where battleships are not the primary targets for CV's. 

3. And why 2, well because you need battleships to be protected by others, because if you let BB's manage on their own you get toxic non team based gameplay. 

 

[Panocek]

55 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Reework total succes, the BBabies stopped crying about getting dev struck, and CV's are now more interested in doing dmg to other classes. Great gamedesign. 

Its not by accident, its by design. Not even Russians are speschul enough to shotgun hand that feeds them The moment spreadshiet shows main audience playing any other class, you can be sure some quality buffs will be handed over.

 

 

 

[mtm78]

Just now, Panocek said:

Its not by accident, its by design. Not even Russians are speschul enough to shotgun hand that feeds them The moment spreadshiet shows main audience playing any other class, you can be sure some quality buffs will be handed over.

 

That conclusion has not escaped me. Sadly this also works out in a way that entire team dynamics have changed. 

[Capra76]

9 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

how about specing AA? oh wait that would be actual counterplay.

 

Yay!  Spec entire ship and captain build for marginal gains against one ship that may or may not be in the game anyway, balance comrade!.

 

Edit:

 

In fact are there any worthwhile modules/skills?  Most seem to affect the amount/effect of flak and are thus meaningless against even half comptent CV.

 

 

9 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

Really? how about then nerving otherships aswell. Like Conquerer but hey what am i to say.

 

I doubt you'll find many on here who'll defend the HE spamming BB concept but in terms of balance Conq's WR% is average and she only gets above average damage thanks to large amounts of low value fire damage on other BB.

 

On a more general point, BB at least offer something back to other ships, being useful targets for torpedoes or HE spam, in contrast CV are almost immune to return fire from surface ships so the return they offer to other ships in the game is practically zero.

[CptBarney]

12 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Manual AA would not work and also not fix the problem of now not only exceptional CV players being able to kill 'AA' destroyers, but even 'average' one's. Sims was so much fun against CV's because I could spend minutes agro'ing an 'average' CV without him actually being able to sink me no matter how low my hp were at the time. Even when I noticed Enterprise was trying to attack me from the sides since his spread is pretty horizontal from his perspective, I could evade taking some damage by trying to minimize profile in his spread and I made him overshoot once but it's all for nothing because he will get me eventually. And Grozovoi is supposed to be good at fighting off planes, my captain runs aft and I have the AA modules mounted. Yes BFT would be nice, but it's pretty close to a full AAA spec for a destroyer. 

 

1. There shouldn't be a gap like 52% account and 66% Enterprise.

2. There shouldn't be a gamedesign where battleships are not the primary targets for CV's. 

3. And why 2, well because you need battleships to be protected by others, because if you let BB's manage on their own you get toxic non team based gameplay. 

 

Ye, i meant literal manual AA so you aim like main guns for example. But with some ships you might as well not bother (normandie for example).

 

1. Yeah wargaming failed at that, although my winrate percentages are closer to my overall winrate atm (except hosho and ryujo atm).

2. True, im not sure why they made it harder to strike BB's, sure some BB's can have great AA but most cruisers and DD's should have at least avg AA with some dedicated platforms creating some no fly zones.

3. Yeah, it does force teammates together but i think wargaming needs to reward teamwork in general rather than for ce it (or do both) to make it far more palatable to more players.

 

Unless wargaming is thinking of adding in Dedicated AA support ships (frigates, corvettes with far better ASW).

 

Idk, im just looking at my two custom made ship designs the Elegant class Battleship (lol) and Duchess Class aircraft carrier (think i might need to turn down the secondary battery on her lol). And i wouldn't be suprised if wargaming adds them in even they serve no additional purpose or screw game balance up.

[Panocek]

11 minutes ago, Capra76 said:

Yay!  Spec entire ship and captain build for marginal gains against one ship that may or may not be in the game anyway, balance comrade!.

Spec ship to neuter DoT damage, countering two classes at once

Spec ship to AA to counter one class

 

And then there is issue of "AA builds" being completely inane as of now. +2 flak works only on ships with large caliber AA and then flak operation is considerably reduced. BFT gives as usual flat +10%, but base values are now castrated, so you could argue if 53dps extra in Minotaur mid range is even worth 3 points. Manual Massive AA is skill actively negating ships with any meaningful AA dps values. AFT as flak boost is more than useless, as planes that enter flak die anyway.

 

On second thought, two ships at +-3km away, to over each other with flak seems to be surprisingly decent at protecting themselves from strikes. Granted, that was case of two Clevelands against Shokek, but back then it worked. 

[Capra76]

2 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Spec ship to neuter DoT damage, countering two classes at once

 

Using captain skills to reduce the effect of potentially all 12 ships on the enemy team is a reasonable use of skill points, having to use those skill points instead to counter one ship that may or may not be in the game indicates a fundamental balance problem.

 

And, as you mention yourself, saying "just spec for AA" assumes that there are some meaningful AA options to spec for.

[Panocek]

Just now, Capra76 said:

 

Using captain skills to reduce the effect of potentially all 12 ships on the enemy team is a reasonable use of skill points, having to use those skill points instead to counter one ship that may or may not be in the game indicates a fundamental balance problem.

 

And, as you mention yourself, saying "just spec for AA" assumes that there are some meaningful AA options to spec for.

DoT reduction also works against CV  granted, it mostly apply to mainstay class of the game, but its all that matters from WG perspective anyway

[mtm78]

Having to manually aim in this game while you need to control your ship is a no go, the choosing direction of AA concentration is the most logical choice. 

 

And I don't think WG can set up a reward system which doesn't force players, since how should they program this? They tried giving more xp per plane kill, but this didn't work because it couldn't account where these planes were killed and what those planes impact would have been. Same with the concepts of rewarding dmg more with battleships when done at closer ranges, they can't do that because some battleships are more specialized as others to operate at closer ranges and this would mean you're making other lines less attractive.

 

Programming a system to award experience based on the actual contribution to the game is hard. That is why we got this 'solo team game' where almost everything is based on damage when damage was never the main reason you would win or loose but rather where this damage was applied. That is what attracted me to this game from the start and it's been getting less and less a factor. 

 

Which I predicted, and I almost wish this game would have been somewhat of a commercial failure since it is commerce which is driving this design direction to appeal to the larger crowds usually associated with WG's other main game. 

 

Just now, Panocek said:

DoT reduction also works against CV  granted, it mostly apply to mainstay class of the game, but its all that matters from WG perspective anyway

 

Nah, I took 20k raw rocket damage, he started a few fires but I have a heal and dcp. I don't mind some DoT potential, it's the raw rocket damage I took which just disgusts me. 

 

 

 

 

[Panocek]

2 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Nah, I took 20k raw rocket damage, he started a few fires but I have a heal and dcp. I don't mind some DoT potential, it's the raw rocket damage I took which just disgusts me. 

Rockets use "regular" HE warhead, so bitching at them makes about as much sense as bitching at HE in general. And then there is issue of Enty totally not being overbuffed while keeping old, pre nerf tricks up her sleeve

[mtm78]

3 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Rockets use "regular" HE warhead, so bitching at them makes about as much sense as bitching at HE in general.

 

That a BS comparison as HE warheads fired from cannons I can dodge a whole lot better at ranges I should be operating at, compared with the dmg output of carriers which cover the entire map. 

 

3 minutes ago, Panocek said:

And then there is issue of Enty totally not being overbuffed while keeping old, pre nerf tricks up her sleeve

 

Ye as I said might not been the best CV to use, but the same rocket planes ( ~ somewhat ) are on all CV's not only Enterprise. 

 

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, mtm78 said:

That a BS comparison as HE warheads fired from cannons I can dodge a whole lot better at ranges I should be operating at, compared with the dmg output of carriers which cover the entire map. 

On other hand you can't shot down HE shells off the sky either.

 

Any other T8 CV is much less potent and sure as hell can't just keep throwing stuff, as they don't have magic plane recovery.

[mtm78]

5 minutes ago, Panocek said:

On other hand you can't shot down HE shells off the sky either.

 

Still BS comparison because there are to many I can not shoot out of the sky, and them being almost always assured damage. 

 

HE shells at gunboat DD ranges are either dodge able when fighting bigger ships, or you accepted the trade with a smaller ship because you will kill him before he kills you. With these rocket planes there is just nothing you can do, it doesn't matter how great you can wiggle your stern the shotgun just will hit you no matter what. 

 

edit: look it's actually quite simple, WG tried to minimize impact by lowering alpha strike, but they only shifted problem towards being almost assured to do some dmg to all targets. This makes CV's just as influential just more focused in late game because assured damage and low hp enemies, and to low hp enemies because it's more efficient for them to do their assured damage somewhere where it matters more... and that's not chipping slowly at BB's. 

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, mtm78 said:

 

Still BS comparison because there are to many I can not shoot out of the sky, and them being almost always assured damage. 

 

HE shells at gunboat DD ranges are either dodge able when fighting bigger ships, or you accepted the trade with a smaller ship because you will kill him before he kills you. With these rocket planes there is just nothing you can do, it doesn't matter how great you can wiggle your stern the shotgun just will hit you no matter what. 

Well, that was intention of rockets, being "easy to use". Compounded by 12 plane squadron of Enterprise and base 49s recovery with pre nerf dispersion, so smaller than average potential damage is actually on higher end due to accuracy. @El2aZeR can fill you in better into cult of Enty details I guess

 

USN HE bombers used to be straight up better pick if one had an glimpse of an idea how to use them, guess why they were reduced into even bigger RNGfest than rockets

[mtm78]

2 minutes ago, Panocek said:

USN HE bombers used to be straight up better pick if one had an glimpse of an idea how to use them, guess why they were reduced into even bigger RNGfest than rockets

 

Having an idea of how to use them is like meeting a CV in the old which actually knew how to properly cross drop a destroyer. 

 

4 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Well, that was intention of rockets

Yup, make even 'average' CV's capable of assured damage against any target. Idk, doesn't seem like you need to be a rocket scientist to predict this will shift what CV's like to attack, slowly chipping at a BB doing small parts of his HP, or go for the targets where you will do larger chunks of total hp pool. 

 

Still, WG doesn't care, BB players will complain less, and this game does it utmost to keep appeasing them. 

[Panocek]

8 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Still, WG doesn't care, BB players will complain less, and this game does it utmost to keep appeasing them. 

So, start playing glorious capitalshipmasterrace or suffer the consequences

[mtm78]

9 minutes ago, Panocek said:

So, start playing glorious capitalshipmasterrace or suffer the consequences

 

I don't want to feel forced to play a single class just because the other classes are getting the short end of the stick. 

 

Also, I can still enjoy my other classes when there is no CV around... or when CV ignores me and go do CV stuff to battleships or in general people on the other flank. Or heck even mid tier in ships with crap AAA I felt like I more in control as with that Grozo game. Feels that low tier rocket planes are easier to dodge, they move slower and it feels like you have a bigger window to adjust course / speed a bit.

 

I don't even know for sure if Enterprise rocket spread is exceptionally good? I get it has more planes, but that should be higher alpha concentration and not even easier to deal assured dmg, the spread shouldn't be that wide I mean in that case, reward skill in aiming then or something? I mean I felt frustrated sometimes fighting other CV's but not as helpless and totally irrelevant as against Enterprise ( might be that I expected to much from Grozovoi in relation to Enterprise.. ). 

 

If I can play FR DD's now up to tier 7 without smoke and feel like rocket planes are annoying but I can still have a decent game even if carrier get's a hard on ( just means I play at longer ranges from enemy team to minimize collateral dmg from being spotted in positions I can't evade shells for instance with islands blocking turns ), why did I feel so helpless and disgusted with that Enterprise attacking my top tier AA destroyer? 

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, mtm78 said:

If I can play FR DD's now up to tier 7 without smoke and feel like rocket planes are annoying but I can still have a decent game even if carrier get's a hard on ( just means I play at longer ranges from enemy team to minimize collateral dmg from being spotted in positions I can't evade shells for instance with islands blocking turns )

Midtier frenchies have... American gun ballistics, so staying at 13km+ means you're about as useful with these guns as Shima/20km

 

2 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

why did I feel so helpless and disgusted with that Enterprise attacking my top tier AA destroyer? 

because

2 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

Enterprise

and

3 minutes ago, mtm78 said:

AA destroyer

is a myth now