CV Rework Discussion

[Sunleader]

26 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I'm not that good in War Thudner, but isn't it more like "Have a good trainerd crew, and the ship AA one shots everything instant"?

At least I get always instanlty shot in War Thunder in Air to Ship combat. Flying around island and Bam, dead before I can even surprise the enemy. It's like I get surprised, while a surprise attack

 

Unlike WoWs. Where Automatic Systems (and Systems in General) are laid out to go up against the least Skilled Players they have.

War Thunder Pays an Incredible Heed to Personal Skill.

 

And not just the Controls are made to actually Require proper Skills before you actually start doing anything. Any Automatic Systems in War Thunder. Are also laid out to go up against Skilled Players.

In General. War Thunder is a much much more Skill Based Game. Which tries to keep RNG to a Minimum.

 

 

So Yes.

While in General a Good Crew will in Fact Shoot down most less Skilled Players pretty Accurately when they attempt to Bomb you.

The AA is still Automatic. And thus Predictable. It can be Fooled rather Easily. And if the Pilot of the Aircraft knows what he is doing. He will not just get through Automatic AA with barely any Damage. But he will Kill your Ship with a Single Hit.

(And believe me. Compared to the Potatoes you get in WoWs the Players in War Thunder actually very often know what they are doing.)

 

Because while many here like to point out how easily AA in WarThunder will Destroy an Player Aircraft. They tend to Forget that the Player Aircraft can also Destroy you will Single Bomb or Torpedo.

[Pikkozoikum]

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

The nerf was wished for by potatoes who failed at playing CVs and continue to do so as proven by their laughable belief that 0.8.7 is an AA buff. 

Yes, I told them, that's not a buff. People thought, they would only get a burst additionally to the current aa dps, but  they didn't know about the other changes.

 

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

The burst damage is literally insignificant. Tests have proven that.

Wouldn't say that, using it over and over is always a additional small amount. In one game (T4) I use it 22 times (wihtout counting the double hits of 2 squads) and damge was about ~300, thus it should be around 6000 addition damage beside the dps and flak. Considering, that this is only one componet out of 3 (Burst, cont. dps, flak exposions) it's still something.

Maybe the dmg is too low, but it's not insignificant.

 

15 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

In fact in a couple of instances not using the sector reinforcement yielded more planes shot down due to it weakening the other side + attack immunity period. In all other instances it shot down the same amount of planes as not using it. It's literally a worthless mechanic.

In almost every of my games the weaken side is never used. So, it doesn't matter, if there is in 1 of 1000 games a unicum, who plays around this mechanic, though those players deserve to go through imo.

 

17 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And again, considering what you've so far based your experience on it cannot be trusted to say the least. Hard numbers prove that AA has been globally nerfed. This includes some weaker AA ships. In no instance did it actually get significantly stronger

I guess the AA is weaker, but that was wished. It's more about, if it's too weak or coming closed to a well balanced state. I don't have the statistics for how well CVs do now overall. Would be nice, if WG would release some Like you say, trusting own experience is not doing much. I can't say, if the AA needs a strong buff, I guess not, maybe a slight one, but can't say without the statistic. I have so far no trouble with CVs on my games

[Panocek]

26 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

We can assume by the current limitations what would be the most logical while also possible approach without majorly changing any of the other currently present mechanics. 

There aren't many possibilities. 

Flat %dps increase Excavatus edition could work perfectly fine, but it would be straight up buff to high AA ships, while crappy ones are still left in the dark. Flak on other hand used to be (used, as most weak AA ships are stripped of it as of now) to be at least sort of equalizer of the AA.

 

You could bypass that by giving flat damage value, but then you would need to set said value manually per ship/ship type/tier/phase of the moon/whathaveyou to avoid going back to square one

 

1 minute ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I guess the AA is weaker, but that was wished.

Maybe not so much wished, as spreadshiet showing carriers being in somewhat balans conflicting with principle of the REEEwork, about making carriers more popular

[Pikkozoikum]

26 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

While in General a Good Crew will in Fact Shoot down most less Skilled Players pretty Accurately when they attempt to Bomb you.

The AA is still Automatic. And thus Predictable. It can be Fooled rather Easily. And if the Pilot of the Aircraft knows what he is doing. He will not just get through Automatic AA with barely any Damage. But he will Kill your Ship with a Single Hit. 

I want see a video of that, because I don't know, how not to get instant shot. I play the B7N and I get instantly shot before I can even adjust my plane. I can't line up to drop a torpedo without getting oneshotted in 0,5 seconds. There is no reaction time or anything just an instant burst down. I had that a lot, I fly behind an island, then I rise and I see the ship like for 0,3 seconds it shots me down.

 

I mean you can go for AA weak ships, but those are not always around ^^

When I play my ship with like 10 aa guns, it always kills everything without noticing that there was even a plane. I remember that I got one time killed by a plane.

 

(The Video request is serious, I want see, how that have to be done)

[El2aZeR]

38 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Wouldn't say that, using it over and over is always a additional small amount.

 

Damage numbers don't matter. Planes shot down matter. In no instance do the new AA mechanics prevent more strikes than just normal AA. Your attempts to sugarcoat it are laughable, especially when considering that instant damage is applied randomly.

 

38 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I guess the AA is weaker, but that was wished. It's more about, if it's too weak or coming closed to a well balanced state.

 

It doesn't matter how many players wished for it. It matters who did.

Average statistics are irrelevant when it comes to reworked CVs as the vast majority of their playerbase is outright terrible.

The current state of AA is very easy to tell. We're extremely close to 0.8.0 again in terms of DPS numbers. As such balance is about as bad as it was at release.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 8 Minuten, El2aZeR sagte:

 

Damage numbers don't matter. Planes shot down matter. In no instance do the new AA mechanics prevent more strikes than just normal AA. Your attempts to sugarcoat it are laughable, especially when consideing that instant damage is applied randomly.

 

 

It doesn't matter how many players wished for it. It matters who did.

Average statistics are irrelevant when it comes to reworked CVs as the vast majority of their playerbase is outright terrible.

The current state of AA is very easy to tell. We're extremely close to 0.8.0 again in terms of DPS numbers. As such balance is about as bad as it was at release.

It's just amazing how the players that think it's fine don't see that. 

Like aren't those the same who complained about the state of 8.0? What happend? 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 29 Minuten, Panocek sagte:

but it would be straight up buff to high AA ships, while crappy ones are still left in the dark

You can't justify making a shima be able to defend itself as well as a gearing. 

Might as well make all the stats of all ships the exact same for "balance" 

Might as well make it chess. 

 

This is getting tiresome. How do you not notice yourself that you are asking for classes and nations to all have the same capabilities that way? 

 

CVs are what's flawed. There will and always have to be ships more vulnerable to CVs to not kill the identity of AA dedicated ships... 

[Pikkozoikum]

18 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Your attempts to sugarcoat it are laughable

Not that laughable, than you can't go for a normal discussion, only with stupid comments like this.

[Pikkozoikum]

12 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

It's just amazing how the players that think it's fine don't see that. 

Like aren't those the same who complained about the state of 8.0? What happend? 

The problem is, that good players will most likely always do comment like "AA is weak. Only bad players can't pass it". While bad players will always go with "AA too strong, pls nerf"

I see somehow a pattern... maybe it's more skill-related (Knowledge, awareness etc) than people really think. In 99,9% of my games I had no issues with CVs as surface ships. Sure I got bombed now and then, but never in a way, that it seems to be OP, especially compared with RTS.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 1 Minute, Pikkozoikum sagte:

The problem is, that good players will most likely always do comment like "AA is weak. Only bad players can't pass it". While bad players will always go with "AA too strong, pls nerf"

I see somehow a pattern... maybe it's more skill-related (Knowledge, awareness etc) than people really think. In 99,9% of my games I had no issues with CVs as surface ships. Sure I got bombed now and then, but never in a way, that it seems to be OP, especially compared with RTS.

Because there are little good CV players who know how to unscrew the pommel and end you rightly

[Panocek]

15 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

You can't justify making a shims be able to defend itself as well as a gearing. 

Might as well make all the stats of all ships the exact same for "balance" 

Might as well make it chess.

To be honest, WG already flattened AA enough, so plain %dps could do - Shima have 49/98, while Gearing have 63/108/105 in terms of dakka numbers. Neither can do much against T10 CV

 

At least Akizuki knockoffs can live up to "AA destroyer" theme (or meme for that matter), having better than average dps numbers and more flak

 

2 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Because there are little good CV players who know how to unscrew the pommel and end you rightly

One does not simply unscrew a pommel with a Bofors

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, Panocek sagte:

To be honest, WG already flattened AA enough, so plain %dps could do - Shima have 49/98, while Gearing have 63/108/105 in terms of dakka numbers. Neither can do much against T10 CV

 

At least Akizuki knockoffs can live up to "AA destroyer" theme (or meme for that matter), having better than average dps numbers and more flak

Let's just continue leaving it to WG

 

 

[Panocek]

Just now, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Let's just continue leaving it to WG

 

 

IIRC one of the Q&A, WG already consider "REEEwork" to be done from technical level, all that's left to do is "turning dem knobs" so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, Panocek sagte:

IIRC one of the Q&A, WG already consider "REEEwork" to be done from technical level, all that's left to do is "turning dem knobs" so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Believe me it'll be fine. The surface ships will soon bow to us CV overlords as it always should have been. 

[El2aZeR]

14 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Not that laughable, than you can't go for a normal discussion, only with stupid comments like this.

 

There are only two ways to go about this. You're either extremely ignorant or deliberately ignoring simple, hard proven facts.

 

Either way the discussion always finds its end with you, not me. You try to bring in facts which are just outright lies, spread misinformation at every turn (as you have done again just above) and when called out on it you try to either weasel your way out, often via "omg you're toxic" excuse (as you're doing now), or go silent about it entirely.

 

Every time you have assessed the current state of balance of reworked CVs it was full of . You tried to pass even testing iterations as perfectly balanced.

As such your opinion holds no value.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 12 Minuten, El2aZeR sagte:

 

There are only two ways to go about this. You're either extremely ignorant or deliberately ignoring simple, hard proven facts.

 

Either way the discussion always finds its end with you, not me. You try to bring in facts which are just outright lies, spread misinformation at every turn (as you have done again just above) and when called out on it you try to either weasel your way out, often via "omg you're toxic" excuse (as you're doing now), or go silent about it entirely.

 

Every time you have assessed the current state of balance of reworked CVs it was full of . You tried to pass even testing iterations as perfectly balanced.

As such your opinion holds no value.

 

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

Dear god. Is this drivel still pinned? Society must be so screwed if people still haven't moved on...

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, WynnZeroOne sagte:

Dear god. Is this drivel still pinned? Society must be so screwed if people still haven't moved on...

Come on. Let's discuss it together. 

It's fun! We love each other here so no worries. 

 

Did you know that balancing was announced as nearly finished already? 

They are quickly moving to subs! 

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

5 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Come on. Let's discuss it together. 

It's fun! We love each other here so no worries. 

 

Did you know that balancing was announced as nearly finished already? 

They are quickly moving to subs! 

Aah, subs. Something else for the BBabies to hate on.

 

Are CV's still OP?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Gerade eben, WynnZeroOne sagte:

Aah, subs. Something else for the BBabies to hate on.

 

Are CV's still OP?

Well... They are more OP then they were in 8.3.

They are very op. I don't play them right now so I can't be accused of exploiting them being OP as they are right now. 

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, WynnZeroOne said:

Are CV's still OP?

Depending who you ask. Guys eating flak? - not really

[E4GLEyE]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 11:48 AM, Sunleader said:

 

Mate no Offense. But see this is the Problem.

"My Squads only get Wiped when I am ignorantly attacking a Pack"

 

This is exactly the Problem. Because if you turn this around.

"The only way for me to not be wiped by the Enemy CV is to have 3-4 Players with me at all times which are all using the AA Sector Correctly"

 

 

And Sorry but this is absolutely not Likable.

4 out of 5 of my DD Games just now. Got Completely Ruined by Enemy CV.

Because I cant do ANYTHING about the Enemy CV at all.

And even if I am close to 1 Allied Cruiser he cant really Shoot down enough Aircraft to really make a Difference.

 

And I know I cant do anything because I play CV as well.

I know that if I want that Enemy DD to be Completely useless. I can Guarantee that and keep Blapping it.

Even if I miss. That DD wont be doing anything that Match.

 

 

We are Back to having 0 Counterplay against CVs.

Because the only Counterplay we have is a Freaking useless 3.5% Instant Damage Burst which is completely entirely useless and can be Safely Ignored by CVs.

Heck. When I play CV. I dont even notice if People are using AA Sector or not. Because the Damage is so neglectable that it simply doesnt even Matter.

 

Personally when I dd I usually still get wrecked by other dds and cruisers more so than CVs if I spot him pushing down a lane I hold back, join a pack and cap later, and if he takes the entire game chasing me I know at least the team is not being harassed and can fight without the fear of bombs dropping. CV rockets are a bit too much VS DDs still, but keep getting less and less a problem in my experience, they usually spot you so late that they fly past, you can reposition and expect the second strike, and surprising amount of players fail to adjust strikes vs a turning and burning DD.  

 

As for being a CV I always scout at the start and strike one two times on DDs than concentrate on larger vessels or if they are too pesky drop a few torps or DB strikes their way than move on again for bigger boats. Not saying I do it right, I just dont find the point in constantly focusing them unless they are potatoes and eat torps :) 

 

CV is no longer the full map controlling beast that it used to be. I sound like a broken record but in RTS CV I loved the saipan, 3-1 loadout was insane, full spot  map control and deny to the enemy CV while the bombers could deal nast HE damage where needed. Now my saipan is my Irian and I do not plan on rebuying her anytime soon... 

 

DDs will always think anything that counters them is OP (radar, planes and subs in the future) its just the way it is. I love my sneaky torp boats, tho my time is taken up by the CVs mostly as I am hooked on torping and AP DBs.

[CptBarney]

Well at least i got 60% winrate in lexi now, so i don't have to actually play her as much anymore (although i dropped 3k avg damage because of it).

 

Subs will be a disaster as well, and probs go through a very similar process like the cv reeework.

 

Probs be released december or jan.

[Sunleader]

14 minutes ago, E4GLEyE said:

Personally when I dd I usually still get wrecked by other dds and cruisers more so than CVs if I spot him pushing down a lane I hold back, join a pack and cap later, and if he takes the entire game chasing me I know at least the team is not being harassed and can fight without the fear of bombs dropping. CV rockets are a bit too much VS DDs still, but keep getting less and less a problem in my experience, they usually spot you so late that they fly past, you can reposition and expect the second strike, and surprising amount of players fail to adjust strikes vs a turning and burning DD.  

 

As for being a CV I always scout at the start and strike one two times on DDs than concentrate on larger vessels or if they are too pesky drop a few torps or DB strikes their way than move on again for bigger boats. Not saying I do it right, I just dont find the point in constantly focusing them unless they are potatoes and eat torps :) 

 

CV is no longer the full map controlling beast that it used to be. I sound like a broken record but in RTS CV I loved the saipan, 3-1 loadout was insane, full spot  map control and deny to the enemy CV while the bombers could deal nast HE damage where needed. Now my saipan is my Irian and I do not plan on rebuying her anytime soon... 

 

DDs will always think anything that counters them is OP (radar, planes and subs in the future) its just the way it is. I love my sneaky torp boats, tho my time is taken up by the CVs mostly as I am hooked on torping and AP DBs.

 

Then your Playing to Aggressive.

But thats a different Story.

 

Mate no Offense. But do you see nothing wrong with it. When the absolutely Best you can Achieve Fighting a certain Ship. Is to sacrifice yourself for the Team to Buy them time ?

Do you Realize what kind of Monster an Enemy Player normally would need to be. That someone would Seriously consider it a Success to have kept that Player Busy for a few more Minutes ?

 

I mean no Offense. But your basicly raising your Arm holding up an Egg and claiming that this Egg is not an Egg because its got a White Shell....

 

Dont you Realize that by considering such a trivial thing as a Success you basicly Admit that CVs are so Ridiculously overpowered. That just this Act of Costing a CV Time is considered a Success ????

 

 

 

As for RTS.

I dont really Care.

Does RTS matter to the current Situation in any way ?

Does the RTS of the Past in any way Change that CVs right now are Overpowered ?

 

Answer is Nope. RTS is entirely Irrelevant to this Topic.

 

[Sunleader]

10 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Well at least i got 60% winrate in lexi now, so i don't have to actually play her as much anymore (although i dropped 3k avg damage because of it).

 

Subs will be a disaster as well, and probs go through a very similar process like the cv reeework.

 

Probs be released december or jan.

 

Subs will be Released in a Seperate Gamemode.

So it at least we will be Spared the First few Months of Completely Ridiculousness we had from 0.8.0 to 0.8.3