CV Rework Discussion

[anonym_JSqwZct68BEw]

But maybe they learned from the GZ situation. 

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

6 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

That is debatable at best. Having talked with supertesters in the past I can tell you that most times the opinions of the supertesters are treated as badly as the opinions of regular players. Unless you are on the russian supertest.

Oooh! You realist cynic, you!

[OVanBruce]

3 minutes ago, Milckenbom said:

But maybe they learned from the GZ situation. 

 

[Pikkozoikum]

Hmm, just had another idea bout the Fighter planes

 

- People don't like the summoning

- In my imagination it wouldn't be a summoning more a "Fighters fly at higher altitude and the player can press a button for engage"

 

So it would be kinda nice to give the Fighter visuals. When consumable ready, they could fly above the bombers maybe 1 km higher and a bit behind them. When you use it, they leave the position and start to patrol, if they're destroyed and consumable not ready, well, then you don't see any fighters obviously. And if consumable gets ready, well then they have to be "summoned" a bit on a distance and take the old position again

 

Without visuals, I still don't have issues with that. When fighters are at higher altitudes and behind clouds or in front of the sun, you won't see them. That are known tactics. So in my imagintation they're just hiding in the fog of war, following your bombers and waiting for an engage

[Uglesett]

One thing I noted about the preview is that the accuracy of the attack seems to be solely dependent on how far into the attack run the planes are. It looks like you can basically dodge, weave and adjust attack vector without it having any impact on the precision. Which seems... well, a bit odd. I would expect there to be some kind of tradeoff between avoiding fire and striking precisely.

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

As if they were out to prove something, plenty of Tier IV carriers out today.

[Pikkozoikum]

7 minutes ago, Uglesett said:

One thing I noted about the preview is that the accuracy of the attack seems to be solely dependent on how far into the attack run the planes are. It looks like you can basically dodge, weave and adjust attack vector without it having any impact on the precision. Which seems... well, a bit odd. I would expect there to be some kind of tradeoff between avoiding fire and striking precisely.

That would be a nice idea, if you loose precision, when you dodge. But also AA is always firing, so there must be a posibility to dodge and hit, otherwise this mechanic wouldn't make much sense, there must be a point, when you move straight and when you try to dodge more. But in general that is a great idea!

[OVanBruce]

 

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

 

Somehow I don't like all his commenting. For Example the part of "perma spotting the shima" I mean right know you can also perma spot, but with the rework you have to do some compromise: Spotting or reloading the only squad you get. If you spot, you cant do damage. I like this opportunity

[El2aZeR]

9 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

but with the rework you have to do some compromise

 

Except no, there is no compromise.

You constantly spot and harass the DD. As soon as the current squad has expended its ordinance, a new one takes flight, goes back and does the same if the DD isn't dead already.

How is it different from the current iteration? Well, if a CV fails his attack now, it's gonna take 2-4 minutes before he comes back to attack you again. With the rework "reload" time easily gets cut down to one minute.

 

DD play is likely going to be a lot more miserable than before.

[Pikkozoikum]

4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Except no, there is no compromise.

You constantly spot and harass the DD. As soon as the current squad has expended its ordinance, a new one takes flight, goes back and does the same if the DD isn't dead already.

How is it different from the current iteration? Well, if a CV fails his attack now, it's gonna take 2-4 minutes before he comes back to attack you again. With the rework "reload" time easily gets cut down to one minute.

 

DD play is likely going to be a lot more miserable than before.

You don't have to take off with the new squad from the CV and fly the range again to the dd?

 

I wouldn't do the assumption, that it will be harder for dds. If you fail a strike, you can still keep a squad there and keep it spotted for you allies to shot it down, and if mates ignore that, you can still wait for other squads reloaded.

 

Can you reload your squad, and sent it to the dd, while you keep your squad of one wing above the dd?

 

Also it's still just a balancing issue, I'm not talking about the balancing issue, how long it takes to reload and stuff. Stats are not final, It's about the mechanic and the potential of it

[El2aZeR]

9 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You don't have to take off with the new squad from the CV and fly the range again to the dd?

 

Seriously, have you even watched the rework stream?

Planes are faster and take off the moment your current squad expend their last ordinance. They don't need to return to the CV first, they don't need to service. This cuts down an immense part of the time a CV spends on "reloading".

 

9 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Can you reload your squad, and sent it to the dd, while you keep your squad of one wing above the dd?

 

Honestly?

No.

If you do it with fighters you risk losing one. Only one lost fighter means your job of contesting air superiority becomes much, MUCH harder as you cannot click-fight anymore.

If you do it with bombers you cut down your striking potential, also undesirable. IJN CVs can perhaps do so freely with their DBs as they have negligible impact, but USN CVs lose a huge part of their striking capability. I'd only do it if there are allies in the area that are ready to capitalize but cannot spot. That however is going to be no different with the rework.

Also one squad is easily dodged, as such you need both squads. Kaga, being inherently broken, does not represent CV play as a whole. Taking her as the standard for CVs is a joke at best.

 

Also perhaps you forget that unlike with the current iteration the DD will be constantly under attack and on fire, losing modules and their detectability advantage. You may not even need to stay in the area as others can just finish the job for you. Smoking will be your only option against the reworked CVs, which will inevitably get you killed by other means. Your counterplay options practically remain the same as now except they become worse due to reworked AA.

[OVanBruce]

7 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

You don't have to take off with the new squad from the CV and fly the range again to the dd?

 

I wouldn't do the assumption, that it will be harder for dds. If you fail a strike, you can still keep a squad there and keep it spotted for you allies to shot it down, and if mates ignore that, you can still wait for other squads reloaded.

 

Can you reload your squad, and sent it to the dd, while you keep your squad of one wing above the dd?

 

Also it's still just a balancing issue, I'm not talking about the balancing issue, how long it takes to reload and stuff. Stats are not final, It's about the mechanic and the potential of it

Mate, let's break it down so you can understand easily:

 

- Send rockets

- Spend all 4 waves of the squad in the miserable DD

-As soon as all 4 waves are spent a new squad of rockets is inmediatly launched

- Rinse and repeat.

 

Oh BTW, did I mention that you are gettin 1-2 fires on your DD per each wave that hits and that it is extremely easy to hit with rockets too?

[FixCVs_Nautical_Metaphor]

What I note about this "discussion" is most of it seems to be completely beside the point.

Many of you focus on the (perceived) impact of carriers on the game, bringing in a lot of unnecessary BS into the thread when the actual impact is a) clear and b) undisputed.

Too little of the discussion focuses on Wargaming's stated reasons for the deletion of RTS carrier play, their disingenousness and the opportunities lost in the chosen mode to address their problem with carriers, which is a different one from the players' problems - CV mains and non-CV mains alike.

Merging RTS and MMO shooter in this manner was a courageous experiment. However, it was not followed through. Problems were correctly identified - see Wargaming's statement that Farrazelleth's video is based on - but they were never properly addressed. Now, scared of their own courage, Wargaming tries to solve the problem by terminating the experiment.

This problem was not caused by the CV mains - now they are made to suffer the consequences.

What distinguishes World of Warships from other games, even other Wargaming titles, are the close ties between the developers and the community. If that is supposed to continue, a different approach must be found. Otherwise, WoWs becomes less and less distinguishable which will hasten its eventual demise.

[Pikkozoikum]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Seriously, have you even watched the rework stream?

Planes are faster and take off the moment your current squad expend their last ordinance. They don't need to return to the CV first, they don't need to service. This cuts down an immense part of the time a CV spends on "reloading".

 

 

Honestly?

No.

If you do it with fighters you risk losing one. Only one lost fighter means your job of contesting air superiority becomes much, MUCH harder as you cannot click-fight anymore.

If you do it with bombers you cut down your striking potential, also undesirable. IJN CVs can perhaps do so freely with their DBs as they have negligible impact, but USN CVs lose a huge part of their striking capability. I'd only do it if there are allies in the area that are ready to capitalize but cannot spot. That however is going to be no different with the rework.

Also one squad is easily dodged. Not every CV is as broken as the Kaga.

 

Also perhaps you forget that unlike with the current iteration the DD will be constantly under attack and on fire, losing modules and their detectability advantage. You may not even need to stay in the area as others can just finish the job for you. Smoking will be your only option against the reworked CVs, which will inevitably get you killed by other means. Your counterplay options practically remain the same as now except they become worse due to reworked AA.

"Seriously" .... lol, I have no comment to that.

 

I prefer to see the whole thing, not specific cases. I mean, risking a fighter in a fighter squad, while the enemy loses a dd.... what a sacrifice. I mean a single fighter is way more worth than a whole ship!

 

If you do it with bombers, striking potential is lower? Oh wait, what is it, when you do that, when you only have one squad? Your strike potential is non existent.

 

At the last points, attack planes will be a thing against dds, yes. But what if you don't have it out?

 

I'm talking about the new possiblities and fairness. It's not like "Oh, it's a dd, cross drop 10 or 12 torps, byebye" I will assume that torps won't be that good against dd's if it's not a Harugumo, because 3 torps from one site are not that many, like 3x4 torps from 3 angles. Should be way easier to dodge. But don't comment this, that's a balancing issue, nothing to discuss.

 

Also I like, that they will implement a kind of strafing to ground targets. I mean attackplanes are kind of fighters, and they strafe with rockets instead of machine guns, but also the effect is kinda the same, disabling modules

[Pikkozoikum]

6 minutes ago, OVanBruce said:

Mate, let's break it down so you can understand easily:

 

- Send rockets

- Spend all 4 waves of the squad in the miserable DD

-As soon as all 4 waves are spent a new squad of rockets is inmediatly launched

- Rinse and repeat.

 

Oh BTW, did I mention that you are gettin 1-2 fires on your DD per each wave that hits and that it is extremely easy to hit with rockets too?

Mate, let me explain it, so you maybe understand me. Do have torpedo bombers have rockets? Do dive bombers have rockets? Who said, that you always have rockets, when you need it? Who said, that rockets are already balanced?

I was not talking about the balancing of the stats, I talked about he mechanic and gameplay. Sure, when you have rockets, they will be kinda good against dds, nothing to say something about that, but we don't know, how effective they will be in the final version, maybe they have 2% fire chance?

 

I was just comparing the situation of spotting a dd in current version vs. situation of spotting a dd in the reworked version. In current version, if you find a shima, you will use one squad, while you use all your planes to strike and reload. In the new version you will strike and then reload, or you will spot, you can't do both, and that's a good thing for balancing the game mechanic (not the stats)

 

[El2aZeR]

4 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

I mean a single fighter is way more worth than a whole ship!

 

Losing air superiority means the enemy CV can counterattack and make your sacrifice moot. If you prefer to see the entire picture, you're certainly failing at it.

Sure, if it's a freebie, it's a great trade. Sadly that is almost never the case.

 

5 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Oh wait, what is it, when you do that, when you only have one squad? Your strike potential is non existent.

 

Why should I care when I get a lot more strikes per game anyway? In the current iteration you can send out about 6 strikes per match at most. Hovering around means you tend to lose a strike, thus it must be worth it. And if it isn't, you've just ed yourself over big time.

Kaga ofc has no problems with this because her single squads are big enough to mitigate losses and still cause damage along with reduced service times giving her more strikes as well. It's almost as if she's made for braindead CV play, only surpassed recently by the GZ. 

 

7 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

At the last points, attack planes will be a thing against dds, yes. But what if you don't have it out?

 

Then you simply have  foresight. Early on you will fly with nothing but rocket squads, as soon as DDs are dealt with or have retreated you can go after something else.

This is no different than the current iteration. DDs will not be able to carelessly enter caps and contest in a CV game, rework or not.

 

And if you don't have rockets out? Attack anyway, see if something sticks, doesn't matter if it does or not. You'll be back in a minute to make his life miserable anyway.

[Seepheerd]

It is not even a simulator,  just a "game". Colored pixels and so on. Don't be too serious 

[Linkaex]

Frankly, I think people should forget how it was and treat it as a totally new concept to the game.  

What is was, or what it is now, does not matter anymore. 

 

Any concerns stated through the topic about how it will affect the meta and gameplay are valid concerns. And should be addressed by WG by matter of balancing or other means. 

As shown in the promo this is how it is going to be. And we should give decent feedback on how the devs can implement this in to the game in a way it is enjoyable for everyone. 

If they fail to do so we have all the right to call them out on it and even in any drastic means spend our money elsewhere.  

[OVanBruce]

People who have played carriers for a very long time: "Hey, stuff will most probably be like this"

 

People who have no or almost no idea about carrier gameplay and its nuances: "lmao no, everything is in testing and it will definetly not be like that, I trust WGs ability to properly balance stuff(lol)"

 

And this is basically why I gave up on discussing anything in this thread 

[Hades_warrior]

20 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

In my opinion the change is really really good, because it solves many problems.

I agree. I saw some people on youtube who think how this new gameplay of CV's will get boring very fast, but I dont think so.

IMO, the bird view that we have now, I find that kind of boring sooner or later. I might get back to my Ranger by January as I find this gameplay as something fresh and new.

This is how carriers suppose to be from the start.

[Xevious_Red]

19 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Then you simply have  foresight. Early on you will fly with nothing but rocket squads, as soon as DDs are dealt with or have retreated you can go after something else.

This is no different than the current iteration. DDs will not be able to carelessly enter caps and contest in a CV game, rework or not.

 

Depends how rockets end up getting balanced out. From the video ones - yeah would totally agree with you. Fly in, dump 18 rockets, get 2-5k damage and maybe some fires. Repeat for all 4 runs and you have probably killed the DD. If you haven't then the next 4 runs will.

 

Rockets may well end up as 6 per volley or 9, and the dispersion area may be larger - making them ok at decapping, but not much good at actually killing 

[xxNihilanxx]

33 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Then you simply have  foresight. Early on you will fly with nothing but rocket squads, as soon as DDs are dealt with or have retreated you can go after something else.

This is no different than the current iteration. DDs will not be able to carelessly enter caps and contest in a CV game, rework or not.

 

And if you don't have rockets out? Attack anyway, see if something sticks, doesn't matter if it does or not. You'll be back in a minute to make his life miserable anyway.

 

Assuming you are correct, and I don't doubt for a second that you are, and assuming that there is no chance that WG will abandon the rework and leave CVs as they are (they already make DD lives miserable) how would you propose they fix this situation?

 

You mention that DDs will not be able to carelessly contest caps so how could DDs carefully contest caps under the new system? Even with smoke the CV player can just wait it out and then proceed to make said DDs life miserable?

 

It is undoubtedly the role of DDs (light cruisers posing as DDs notwithstanding) to contest caps but, as you have indicated, the presence of a CV would (and does) negate this role, and by extension - the entire class, entirely. So how do we fix this? What is your solution?

[MrWastee]

15 minutes ago, Hades_warrior said:

  20 hours ago, Pikkozoikum said:

In my opinion the change is really really good, because it solves many problems.

 

xcept for, it does not solve any of the problems! not a slightly bit! it just shifts them into something that not got shapen in any way yet balancewise! .... in germany we got a sayin: rather dance with the devil u know.... i wouldn't be too surprised if in the end this whole new concept indeed gets nothing but an 80's arcade automat, on way or the other even more hated than what we got now.

 

imo btw the way cv's are now fit exactly to what i would expect they had to be in a naval game. a powerhouse, but planes rather fragile (theres quite some AA ingame and still people cry) and the ability to oversee and influence the battle everywhere on the map, while being vulnerable itself as ship.

"air cavalary" i think is a term known. and a cv is not just one bit of sight of a map. they stay back, get intel and coordinate, perfect commanding ship.... nvm, i stick to ovan now i hope lol....

[El2aZeR]

13 minutes ago, Xevious_Red said:

From the video ones - yeah would totally agree with you.

 

Thing is in the video rockets are arguably even more superior to bombs. if your goal is to set DoT anyway, why bother with bombs? Rockets reload faster, don't require as much care in approach and your squad is more maneuverable while you attack.

This is no doubt getting adjusted. I fear however that they're going to adjust this by buffing bombs, either by introducing AP bombs back or making them ridiculous otherwise.

 

8 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

What is your solution?

 

Have cruisers push with DDs to establish cap control and provide AA cover?

That would however require a ton of adjustments not in favor of the average playerbase, aka it's never going to happen anyway.