CV Rework Discussion

[Panocek]

Just now, Pushi2 said:

you mean it's deck armor is too strong for those AP Bombs?

so only Torpedos for Richelieu than?

 

Dropping payload is time consuming. Deciding Squad number pre-take-off would be better.

No, distance between deck, where bomb arms and citadel hitbox is too large and thus bomb detonate before reaching it, scoring at best regular pen, no damage if they explode within torpedo belt.

 

Only case where AP bomb might actually be stopped by thickness of armored deck is Shokaku against Yamato - Shokek have 260mm AP bomb pen, Yamato have 57mm+200mm decks, add any angling, as drops are not vertical and bomb will fail to penetrate. Same happens with Enterprise.

 

On other hand, AP bombs are prime anti cruiser tool, as their deck is still thick enough to arm bomb fuses and distance to citadel is not large enough to prevent premature bomb detonation unless you drop bombs late.

 

 

[Pushi2]

Vor 2 Minuten, Panocek sagte:

No, distance between deck, where bomb arms and citadel hitbox is too large and thus bomb detonate before reaching it, scoring at best regular pen, no damage if they explode within torpedo belt.

 

Only case where AP bomb might actually be stopped by thickness of armored deck is Shokaku against Yamato - Shokek have 260mm AP bomb pen, Yamato have 57mm+200mm decks, add any angling, as drops are not vertical and bomb will fail to penetrate. Same happens with Enterprise.

 

On other hand, AP bombs are prime anti cruiser tool, as their deck is still thick enough to arm bomb fuses and distance to citadel is not large enough to prevent premature bomb detonation unless you drop bombs late.

 

 

 

could you tell me where you found that info on Shokaku 260mm AP bomb pen? I dont find it ingame nor in the wiki,

 

thx in advance

[Panocek]

26 minutes ago, Pushi2 said:

 

could you tell me where you found that info on Shokaku 260mm AP bomb pen? I dont find it ingame nor in the wiki,

 

thx in advance

Was posted by S_O in one of Q&A, will try to dig it out

 

@Pushi2

Quote

Can you give us a penetration value of AP bombs? It's really interesting to know. Thanks.

A:

Hosho (Type 99 25 Mod1): 174

Ruyjo (Type 3 25 Mod1 Mk4): 228

Shokaku (Type 2 50 Mark1): 262

Hakuryu (Type 2 80 Mk5 Mod1): 351

Enterprise (M62): 244

GZ (PD 500): 334 (pre buff)

These should be the base values. Please take this into account:

Penetration capability is always the same, it's not affected by anything.

However, bombs interact with effective armor, so angle matters and they even can bounce.

They have normalization. It's base value is bigger than AP shells, but it's applied non-linearly; if the angle is bad, even great normalization won't help.

Aircraft angle and speed affect bomb speed and trajectory (but bombs do not loose penetration from speed!). Which means that for maximum penetration capabilities we must make the drop as close to 90 degrees as possible -> dropping early. For soft targets it may make sense to drop lately because, as with AP shells, for soft targets you don't want overpens and increasing effective armor turns into a benefit.

 

[artic_99]

Vor 39 Minuten, Pushi2 sagte:

you mean it's deck armor is too strong for those AP Bombs?

so only Torpedos for Richelieu than?

 

Dropping payload is time consuming. Deciding Squad number pre-take-off would be better.

That's why WG gives you 10 tb planes now. That's actually a nerf but WG says its a fat buff 😂😂😂

[Panocek]

3 minutes ago, artic_99 said:

That's why WG gives you 10 tb planes now. That's actually a nerf but WG says its a fat buff 😂😂😂

Yep, you can waste more planes per run

[mtm78]

1 hour ago, Panocek said:

Was posted by S_O in one of Q&A, will try to dig it out

 

Off topic: there are wiki guys hanging around on forum this kind of information should be preserved there.

 

 

 

[KillStealBoss]

2 hours ago, Pushi2 said:

i play SHOKAKU Tier 8 CV

I engage with full bomber squad a zombie Richelieu Tier 8 BB

I engage from nose side.

Quick in, quick out.

I land 3 Bombs and do about 4.000 dmg

He kills 6 planes.

 

Is this intended?

 

I mean, in my Tier 6 CV i do better.

 

RTS was great, this still lacks fun.

 

If WG wants kamikaze drops we should at least be able to reduce the amount of planes that we want to take off with.

 

You have to drop bombs from max altitude against T8+ French BBs

[BLUB__BLUB]

3 hours ago, Pushi2 said:

you mean it's deck armor is too strong for those AP Bombs?

so only Torpedos for Richelieu than?

 

Dropping payload is time consuming. Deciding Squad number pre-take-off would be better.

You can also set fire to it with rockets, aim for the superstructure.

[B051LjKo]

9 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

No no no Sunleader. Let's talk about doing this in a normal CV, no gimmick speed/ 220knotd torp drops with heal.

Do the same in Lexi or Kaga or Enterprise or Saipan and see where it gets you LOL

 

Can easily drop blobs... well obviously with those planes.

Well, I am playing and learning new stuff. Had a nice test against Sinop and Gneisenau. First run OK, some chip damage to the planes, did a turn to test for a second run, remaining aircraft melted before the second attack could be done, Saipan rocket planes. I guess it will take a few days before people get used to new mechanics.

[KillStealBoss]

7 hours ago, BLUB__BLUB said:

You can also set fire to it with rockets, aim for the superstructure.

Japanese rockets aren't the best ones to set fires. 

[Thracen]

So CV DD interaction is still toxic as all hell, when 1 enemy ship can ruin your whole game for the full 20 minutes it is legitimized trolling. I'd rather get  detonated with the first hit than play. 

It's the only thing that makes me not want to play these days. I just wish it wasn't such a terrible experience. 

[Pikkozoikum]

15 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

You have to drop bombs from max altitude against T8+ French BBs

It should be about the angle not the altitude :-|

 

[LemonadeWarriorITA]

So I was reading about this game mode where only subs can enter. What about releasing that game mode now for just carriers. People who like to play World of Al can join that game mode and the rest of us can have fun while playing.

[KillStealBoss]

54 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

It should be about the angle not the altitude :-|

 

Dropping from highest altitude was a guaranteed citadel. Lower drop gave regular pens.

[Pikkozoikum]

3 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Dropping from highest altitude was a guaranteed citadel. Lower drop gave regular pens.

When you are too low, your bomb hit from different angle, but when you are in a dive, the angle should be almost 90°

I would assume, that the citadell is not guaranteed ;)

[KillStealBoss]

6 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

When you are too low, your bomb hit from different angle, but when you are in a dive, the angle should be almost 90°

I would assume, that the citadell is not guaranteed ;)

On the highest one with Haku almost always if they hit the center of the ship (not the turrets)

[Bindolaf_Werebane]

I've been following this thread off and on, haven't read all posts, but I have quite a few.

 

Here is my view on the CV rework. I'm not a potato, but I'm not great. Sweet potato? Yam? Anyway. My stats are open to everyone, by the way. I played the IJN CVs and got to the Shokaku as the 8.5 update hit. I sold her and I'm not going back. I did rebuy the Ryujo, since she was still fun. I stopped playing her after 8.5. Now, with 8.7, I gave her another spin. Here are my observations and a suggestion, in two short lines:

 

- AA under 8.7, is much more manageable. I don't lose too many planes and I manage runs, sometimes 2, sometimes even 3 per wing (3 only against bad players though).

- My average damage is down at least 30%

- CVs are not fun anymore. I take off, shed 2-3 waves of planes, fly to the target (oftentimes 30 - 90 seconds away), circle around the flak, circle around their sectors, do a run or two, rinse and repeat.

- AP Bombs are still good, I get citadels pretty consistently, but dive bombers get shredded more than other planes. Torpedo damage is a *joke*. Rocket planes must have gotten stealth - nerfed (or I didn't pay attention). The reticle is stiffer (when green) and the dispersion has gotten worse. I still can do consistent damage to DDs, but  it takes 1 - 3 more runs.

 

My suggestion? Leave AA as it is. Limit plane numbers further, but make a hit, be a hit. Make a torpedo do 25k damage, knowing that you might score 1-2 hits in a game etc. You get my drift.

 

I'll be happy to read your experiences.

[Yedwy]

I yesterday got myself the kaga using a 30% coupon I got, IMHO the Kaga DB are pretty crappy, wery hard to acctually land the bombs where you want them and you lose lot of planes for those hits, were it not for an occasional fire they start they would be utterly uselss, RF are well, no need to even comment on those really, but the TBs, OH BOY are they nasty, nasy as phuck and once over, and there is alot of them in stock, and they regenerate pretty quickly, stacked them with all the upgrades they can get and they are quite comfy even in T10 MM,  plane loadout on Kaga is IMO quite nice to look at as well in flight... In general - the AA seems more managable now, both sides (given you chose ship apropriate skills and modules) overall wery good work IMO

[Sunleader]

26 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

I yesterday got myself the kaga using a 30% coupon I got, IMHO the Kaga DB are pretty crappy, wery hard to acctually land the bombs where you want them and you lose lot of planes for those hits, were it not for an occasional fire they start they would be utterly uselss, RF are well, no need to even comment on those really, but the TBs, OH BOY are they nasty, nasy as phuck and once over, and there is alot of them in stock, and they regenerate pretty quickly, stacked them with all the upgrades they can get and they are quite comfy even in T10 MM,  plane loadout on Kaga is IMO quite nice to look at as well in flight... In general - the AA seems more managable now, both sides (given you chose ship apropriate skills and modules) overall wery good work IMO

 

The Dive Bombers are Actually Extremely Good.

You lose alot of them. But they also Regenerate fast as crab.

And not only do they have a Considerable Fire Chance. But their Damage in itself is also Pretty Good.

And if you Start the Attack Early so you Flatten out before you actually Drop. You can even Hunt DDs with them pretty Effectively.

 

The RFs are indeed Weak. And Regenerate Slow on Top. But they are really more of an Aftertought anyways.

 

Yes. The Big One is the Torpedo Bombers. You can very Effectively Hunt Cruisers, You can Force DDs out of Smoke and against BBs you have a high Flooding Chance as well.

As you got 3 Full Squadrons to Start with. You also can often Run Torpedo Bombers for most of the Match.

 

 

 

As for the AA Nerf.

Well my Opinion on this is Likely known by Now.

The AA Nerf has been way too heavy. And its really way too easy to massacre people in a CV right now.

 

1 Average CV is currently worth as much as Division of Good Players in Surface Ships.

1 Good CV can easily Outbalance 2 Full Divisions of Players on the Enemy Team.

 

As actually Defending against a CV properly requires several Players at once.

Which is Ridiculous because it means that 1 Player is Invincible unless Countered by Several Players at once.

 

[specialkha]

16 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

The Dive Bombers are Actually Extremely Good.

You lose alot of them. But they also Regenerate fast as crab.

And not only do they have a Considerable Fire Chance. But their Damage in itself is also Pretty Good.

And if you Start the Attack Early so you Flatten out before you actually Drop. You can even Hunt DDs with them pretty Effectively.

 

The RFs are indeed Weak. And Regenerate Slow on Top. But they are really more of an Aftertought anyways.

 

Yes. The Big One is the Torpedo Bombers. You can very Effectively Hunt Cruisers, You can Force DDs out of Smoke and against BBs you have a high Flooding Chance as well.

As you got 3 Full Squadrons to Start with. You also can often Run Torpedo Bombers for most of the Match.

 

 

 

As for the AA Nerf.

Well my Opinion on this is Likely known by Now.

The AA Nerf has been way too heavy. And its really way too easy to massacre people in a CV right now.

 

1 Average CV is currently worth as much as Division of Good Players in Surface Ships.

1 Good CV can easily Outbalance 2 Full Divisions of Players on the Enemy Team.

 

As actually Defending against a CV properly requires several Players at once.

Which is Ridiculous because it means that 1 Player is Invincible unless Countered by Several Players at once.

 

Your opinion is not fact. Use a normal CV for once. You did one game and you have an opinion about the rework? Like lol?

 

I did a fair number of game and the AA is strong IF well used with emphasis on the if.

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, specialkha said:

I did a fair number of game and the AA is strong IF well used with emphasis on the if.

Which was the point of whole Sector rework thingy to make AA more interactive and effective when doing so.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, specialkha said:

Your opinion is not fact. Use a normal CV for once. You did one game and you have an opinion about the rework? Like lol?

 

I did a fair number of game and the AA is strong IF well used with emphasis on the if.

 

Been a Few more Games by now.

And we were Talking about Kaga.

 

 

On top I actually statet it as and even marked it out as my *OPINION* clearly.

 

So no Offense. But if you Disagree how about you bring Arguments instead of just attacking me and makings demands ? :)

 

 

Maybe a small Advice.

Damage Farming does not Win Matches ;)

[KillStealBoss]

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

 

Been a Few more Games by now.

And we were Talking about Kaga.

 

 

On top I actually statet it as and even marked it out as my *OPINION* clearly.

 

So no Offense. But if you Disagree how about you bring Arguments instead of just attacking me and makings demands ? :)

 

 

Maybe a small Advice.

Damage Farming does not Win Matches ;)

@Mr_Wolfclaw look and stop saying Kaga is crap.

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, specialkha said:

Your opinion is not fact.

 

Neither is yours.

Judged by raw DPS numbers as well as how sector reinforcement works overall AA is actually pathetic. 0.8.7 represents a massive nerf to AA.

[KillStealBoss]

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Neither is yours.

Judged by raw DPS numbers as well as how sector reinforcement works overall AA is actually pathetic. 0.8.7 represents a massive nerf to AA.

I believe you cause some DD captains started to moan again