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CV Rework Discussion

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34 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

AA needs to be nerfed really hard

 

No it doesn't. We are closer to balance than ever before (although that's not saying much considering what a cluster:etc_swear: CVs have been before). A nerf would be a step in the wrong direction.

CVs are not unplayable. Shima cannot easily down any planes unless you're bad enough to eat flak, F-spam is supposed to be punishing when used inside heavy AA (even when it really isn't if you know how to exploit accel bail) and TB heal is still useful. Most of what you're stating does in no way reflect reality and as such is pointless whining.

 

Any grievances you have with the current state of CVs can easily be solved by simply gitting gud as CV players have haughtily preached to surface ship players for months on end. Refuse to do that and you forfeit your right to complain.

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13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

No it doesn't. We are closer to balance than ever before (although that's not saying much considering what a cluster:etc_swear: CVs have been before). A nerf would be a step in the wrong direction.

CVs are not unplayable. Shima cannot easily down any planes unless you're bad enough to eat flak, F-spam is supposed to be punishing when used inside heavy AA (even when it really isn't if you know how to exploit accel bail) and TB heal is still useful. Most of what you're stating does in no way reflect reality and as such is pointless whining.

 

Any grievances you have with the current state of CVs can easily be solved by simply gitting gud as CV players have haughtily preached to surface ship players for months on end. Refuse to do that and you forfeit your right to complain.

I am currently one of the top 50 players in the Kaga on EU, except i don't have enough battles. I quit playing it for a while now since AA is getting far too heavy. In other  carriers i am by no means a bad CV player. 
 

Git gut is an easy counter, but a [edited] advise, especially coming from 1 of the top problems when it comes to CVs. Of course you are fine with where CVs are at now- you are arguably the best EU CV player. Surely youll say its in a good spot, since you still destroy entire teams solo. 

Sure, F spam should be punished, but losing a full squad to 1 minor mistake (such as flying into a fully unspotted minotaur) shouldnt cost you an entire squad. There has to be something the average player can do about that. Not just you, not even players like me, the average player. 

Torpedo heal can be useful, but you can hardly activate it to begin with- if unluckily timed it will not activate at all, which happens far too often IMO. 

It is not pointless whining, it is the hard reality. Just that you can say from your ivory tower that everything is fine doesnt mean it's fine for the average CV player. 

You have an average WR of 70% and score over 2k average XP in post-rework CVs. Trust me, im freaking impressed by those figures, but they also mean that you are in no place to reflect on what the state of CVs is. Its like as if Dezgamez from World of Tanks would say that the TVP VTU is not per se a bad tank, you can easily still do 6k damage in it- yeah sure, when you're him you can, except around 50% of the WoT playerbase has never even touched 6k damage to begin with. 

Of course i want to git gud, and as a matter of fact i already am pretty good at playing those CVs, but i simply quit playing them & refuse to play them lately because they are not at all enjoyable. 
And thats where my pain sits. Nerf after nerf after nerf, each one making you lose planes harder, making it harder to keep your reserves intact, leaving you nearly deplaned after 5 minutes. 

I don't want buffs to sight stabilization, i want my aircraft to survive. I'm fine with the aiming & damage dealing, but my aircraft keep dropping like flies & there is NOTHING i can do about. Even attacking lone, AA-low targets will often result in a couple of aircraft deaths or having to abort your strike early, and thats  just [edited] IMO. Why do they give me 4x2 torp bombers on the Shokaku when i will only drop at most 3x2 anyway?

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[PARAZ]
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13 minutes ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

Sure, F spam should be punished, but losing a full squad to 1 minor mistake (such as flying into a fully unspotted minotaur) shouldnt cost you an entire squad. There has to be something the average player can do about that. Not just you, not even players like me, the average player. 

Torpedo heal can be useful, but you can hardly activate it to begin with- if unluckily timed it will not activate at all, which happens far too often IMO. 

It is not pointless whining, it is the hard reality. Just that you can say from your ivory tower that everything is fine doesnt mean it's fine for the average CV player.

 

Minotaur long range AA is mediocre at best, losing an entire squad without prolonged exposure is straight up impossible unless, again, you can't dodge flak at which point you don't deserve to survive anyway.

As for TB heal, just hammer the button. With the new faster AA proc rate heal will initiate on your second button press if it doesn't on the first.

So much for "hard reality" lol.

 

Here's a good question:

Why is the average player relevant? The average playerbase is simply bad, as such they should not be able to perform, and they don't. Decent players should perform decently, as they do, and skilled players should perform well, which they also do. Even suggesting that the average player should be able to do something despite being a complete and utter failure is laughable.

 

Yes, I'm skilled. So what? It simply proves my level of performance is achievable, aka objectively speaking CVs are not in a bad place and certainly not unplayable. All you need to do is, again, git gud.

And this is fact, backed up by my own performance which you so graciously pointed out.

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Vor 5 Minuten, El2aZeR sagte:

Yes, I'm skilled. So what? It simply proves my level of performance is achievable, 

This sentence right here is not only absolutely true but also the one thing most dont want to hear.

 

"If another can do it so can i" is what i go by to improve. It's the best friend of the sentence above.

But many will never accept it.

 

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45 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Any grievances you have with the current state of CVs can easily be solved by simply gitting gud as CV players have haughtily preached to surface ship players for months on end. Refuse to do that and you forfeit your right to complain.

 

SuperUnicum CV player telling others to "get gud" or to shut up.

Lewis Hamilton told me the same, because I have problems driving my McLaren P1!

 

Thank god were are not living in a purple world :Smile_trollface:

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1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Minotaur long range AA is mediocre at best, losing an entire squad without prolonged exposure is straight up impossible unless, again, you can't dodge flak at which point you don't deserve to survive anyway.

As for TB heal, just hammer the button. With the new faster AA proc rate heal will initiate on your second button press if it doesn't on the first.

So much for "hard reality" lol.

 

Here's a good question:

Why is the average player relevant? The average playerbase is simply bad, as such they should not be able to perform, and they don't. Decent players should perform decently, as they do, and skilled players should perform well, which they also do. Even suggesting that the average player should be able to do something despite being a complete and utter failure is laughable.

 

Yes, I'm skilled. So what? It simply proves my level of performance is achievable, aka objectively speaking CVs are not in a bad place and certainly not unplayable. All you need to do is, again, git gud.

And this is fact, backed up by my own performance which you so graciously pointed out.


Here goes. 

Why the average player matters: 

There were a couple of key ideas behind the CV rework from WGs side. Let me list them, and argue why i think they did a horrible job on the final implementation. Im sure i could find a source for this (WG stream etc) but this is what i understood where the principal ideas behind the rework.
- Make an arcade style gameplay rather than RTS. (Verdict: complete success from CV side)
- Make CVs more popular (Verdict: failed, but slightly irrelevant now)
- Make CV impact a lot lower & flatten out damage numbers between bad/ good players (Verdict: massively failed, and this is why the average player also matters)
- Prevent CVs from running completely out of aircraft (Verdict: succeeded, although some CVs deplane quickly, they will always regenerate, not rendering them completely useless). 

 

So, lets zoom in on the CV impact & damage flattening. Average players , and by average i mean players that score say between the 48.5-51.5% WR and also score relatively average damage numbers, can do consistently "well" in cruisers, battleships and destroyers. "Well" is in quote marks there, since well would then be well relative to how they play. So no high damage, but okay damage. It is fairly easy to do consistenly okay in those classes. In CVs though, the skill needed to do roughly the same is a lot higher. This is a known issue, and was certainly not intended. 
Meaning that basically for "well" class-equal performance of a CV, an average player no longer needs to do what a 48.5-51.5% player typically would do, but much more what a 53-55% player would do. Basically, you need to perform better to achieve the same. 

That, in my opinion, is pretty bad. And i'm no average player. I'm not top of the line but i'll call myself above average. Yet still this whole balance should be fixed IMO, or at least there should be attention to it

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Vor 3 Minuten, OseiP sagte:

 

SuperUnicum CV player telling others to "get gud" or to shut up.

Lewis Hamilton told me the same, because I have problems driving my McLaren P1!

 

Thank god were are not living in a purple world 

How did Lewis Hamilton get to where he was?

I guess magic?

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2 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

How did Lewis Hamilton get to where he was?

I guess magic?

In all honesty, i don't think WG should design their game about Lewis Hamilton. 
It should design its game around its customers- ppl sitting in a traffic on their way back from work, hoping they can be home in time to turn on the TV and watch that F1 while sitting on the couch with a beer

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9 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

This sentence right here is not only absolutely true but also the one thing most dont want to hear.

 

"If another can do it so can i" is what i go by to improve. It's the best friend of the sentence above.

But many will never accept it.

 

Every ship has his best players =)

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Vor 1 Minute, Pikkozoikum sagte:

Every ship has his best players =)

And every one of them is contestable.

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So, people rather hear from one of the strongest CV players who wishes to see the CV rework gone that the rework is doing great, than from the average CV player- who in general has CVs as a side class anyway- that CVs might be in a pretty bad spot. 
Hmmmmm. 

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Vor 8 Minuten, Isoruku_Yamamoto sagte:

So, people rather hear from one of the strongest CV players who wishes to see the CV rework gone that the rework is doing great, than from the average CV player- who in general has CVs as a side class anyway- that CVs might be in a pretty bad spot. 
Hmmmmm. 

Who wishes the CV rework gone?

Who says a tv drooling potato cant git gud?

Why should a casual have the right to demand the power i got good for for free?

This isn't welfare. You work for what you want to achieve or you stay a potato it's that simple.

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16 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Who wishes the CV rework gone?

Who says a tv drooling potato cant git gud?

Why should a casual have the right to demand the power i got good for for free?

This isn't welfare. You work for what you want to achieve or you stay a potato it's that simple.

Many players want cvs to be gone for good. MANY......

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Vor 2 Minuten, MacArthur92 sagte:

Many players want cvs to be gone for good. MANY......

Well yes but you are taking this out of context a bit. Read the convo between isoroku and El2a again and then his responses to me to understand why i asked that question.

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Just now, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Well yes but you are taking this out of context a bit. Read the convo between isoroku and El2a again and then his responses to me to understand why i asked that question.

Well yes but you asked the question like if all were happy about cvs. Some even get mad about their engine sounds....

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3 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Why should a casual have the right to demand the power i got good for for free?

 

3 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

Many players want cvs to be gone for good. MANY......

I have neither the time nor the desire to become a 55%+ solo player. I am happy at 50%, driving boats,  shooting my guns and HAVING  FUN.  FUN is NOT dodging aircraft strikes, being continually air spotted and even if I shoot down his entire flight I can only look forward to being harassed again in 30 seconds.  CVs are FUN killers,  I play to have fun not to be able to swing a big win stat around like a big ??

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4 hours ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

This sentence right here is not only absolutely true but also the one thing most dont want to hear.

 

"If another can do it so can i" is what i go by to improve. It's the best friend of the sentence above.

But many will never accept it.

 

 

Thats only half true to be Honest.

Reaction Time, Reflexes, Speed of Tought, Intelligence, Coordination Skills, Fortitude of Mind,

 

Alot of Skills Required to Perform well in a Game. Are Skills which are often Decided by Genetic Profile and Age.

They arent something that can be Changed to any Degree by Learning or Training.

 

You can Train most of these Skills to some Degree. But you wont go beyond certain Potential Points.

For example. I.ve got a Steeltrap of a Mind even in Serious Situations. Which Allows me to make Calm Decisions even in Situations where actual Danger is Involved.

But many People simply cannot keep Calm in certain Situations even in Games. And even if they Train they will never reach the Level of Someone who was Born with this Naturally :)

 

I for example absolutely lack Reaction Time. I mean that. I got an Abhorrent Reaction Time.

So I will by Default NEVER be a Good Player in Action FPS Games despite me being a Great Player in Tactical FPS Games :)

 

Also due to the Post Below I actually Noticed.

I am Creeping Closer to you in the Kaga Ranking of WoWs Stats xD

Your on 105. I am on 113 now ^^

 

Tough well. That Ranking isnt very Good in my Eyes. Its Rating Damage Farming way too high lol.

 

4 hours ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

I am currently one of the top 50 players in the Kaga on EU, except i don't have enough battles. I quit playing it for a while now since AA is getting far too heavy. In other  carriers i am by no means a bad CV player.

 

No Offense. But no you are not.

Battles are Part of that Equation Mate. And the Requirement for a Minimum Number of Battles is there for a Reason.

And if you cant Maintain that Level over the Course of the Minimum Required Battles then you are not Part of that Ranking.

 

As for your Skills as a CV. We cant Really Tell.

It doesnt Seem like you have Played after the AA Changes.

And before the AA Changes CVs were simply Ridiculously Overpowered and any Potato could have Good Stats with them.

 

So unless you actually bother Playing a bunch of Games with your Ships. Its somehow not really leading anywhere to tell us your a Good Player in CVs. As we cant Confirm the Statement.

 

 

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@L0V3_and_PE4CEHey! you can get your toineh smoll plushie torpedo that you have alwayds wanted!

 

make sure you do da comp quick before mister torp goes! make sure to love the new homing torps as well while you scream at your monitor because your cv can barely spot subs!

 

Yay!

 

obviously in testing but makes me reckon if they will be somewhat similar to they are now or massively different.

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2 hours ago, gslick said:

 

I have neither the time nor the desire to become a 55%+ solo player. I am happy at 50%, driving boats,  shooting my guns and HAVING  FUN.  FUN is NOT dodging aircraft strikes, being continually air spotted and even if I shoot down his entire flight I can only look forward to being harassed again in 30 seconds.  CVs are FUN killers,  I play to have fun not to be able to swing a big win stat around like a big ??

Cause getting spammed by Worcester /Harugumo is ok but being under attack from cv isn’t ok. :fish_book:

 

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2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Thats only half true to be Honest.

Reaction Time, Reflexes, Speed of Tought, Intelligence, Coordination Skills, Fortitude of Mind,

 

Alot of Skills Required to Perform well in a Game. Are Skills which are often Decided by Genetic Profile and Age.

They arent something that can be Changed to any Degree by Learning or Training.

 

You can Train most of these Skills to some Degree. But you wont go beyond certain Potential Points.

For example. I.ve got a Steeltrap of a Mind even in Serious Situations. Which Allows me to make Calm Decisions even in Situations where actual Danger is Involved.

But many People simply cannot keep Calm in certain Situations even in Games. And even if they Train they will never reach the Level of Someone who was Born with this Naturally :)

 

I for example absolutely lack Reaction Time. I mean that. I got an Abhorrent Reaction Time.

So I will by Default NEVER be a Good Player in Action FPS Games despite me being a Great Player in Tactical FPS Games :)

 

Also due to the Post Below I actually Noticed.

I am Creeping Closer to you in the Kaga Ranking of WoWs Stats xD

Your on 105. I am on 113 now ^^

 

Tough well. That Ranking isnt very Good in my Eyes. Its Rating Damage Farming way too high lol.

 

 

No Offense. But no you are not.

Battles are Part of that Equation Mate. And the Requirement for a Minimum Number of Battles is there for a Reason.

And if you cant Maintain that Level over the Course of the Minimum Required Battles then you are not Part of that Ranking.

 

As for your Skills as a CV. We cant Really Tell.

It doesnt Seem like you have Played after the AA Changes.

And before the AA Changes CVs were simply Ridiculously Overpowered and any Potato could have Good Stats with them.

 

So unless you actually bother Playing a bunch of Games with your Ships. Its somehow not really leading anywhere to tell us your a Good Player in CVs. As we cant Confirm the Statement.

 

 

You know what, me talking about the Kaga, you guys rightfully telling me i can't complain too much without trying and all- i'm going for it lol. 

 

I'm gonna see if i can get my Shokaku grind going, and if i can make the Kaga really work for me. Will focus on the other carriers so dont expect to see my kaga in the top 50 in two weeks, but if i get there i'll let you guys know haha. 

My doctrine with the Kaga is to only play it when i feel i can have a good battle in it anyway, unlike any other ship i have, simply cause i feel its a ship with good potential for me. So lets see if i can make it come true. 

Btw i meant to score really high in damage in the Kaga, not so much the rest lol. Damage is what i got my kaga for, but i'll see where it goes @Sunleader

Update: 

Battle 1: 80k, win 
Battle 2: 108k, couldve easily done 150+, but lost by cap

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42 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Cause getting spammed by Worcester /Harugumo is ok but being under attack from cv isn’t ok. :fish_book:

 

Because I have a chance to kill the Worcester/Harugumo.  If they kill me its +victory points for them, -points for me.  If I kill them then I get +victory points.  Planes kill me its +victory points for them,  I shoot down all the planes its 0, nada, not squat for me.  That's a major difference.

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8 hours ago, OseiP said:

Thank god were are not living in a purple world :Smile_trollface:

 

Don't we? Last I checked we live in a performance based economy where the people who do not perform well are largely ignored.

 

8 hours ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

There were a couple of key ideas behind the CV rework from WGs side. Let me list them

 

Well, you failed on that count already.

This is what WG actually identified as issues with the old CVs and their goals with the rework:

Spoiler

vxYTQM4.png

 

qdPuk3s.png

 

So let's go through them shall we?

- High difficulty: Arguably still true

- Low popularity: Statistically still true

- High impact: Still true

- AA system (meaning it was obscure and stuff): Considering the average player doesn't even know what flak is, still true

- Disconnect from gameplay: Made way worse due to CVs being both incapable and discouraged from direct interaction with other ships, while ships have no notable active interaction with the CV at all

- AA builds/skills worthless (aka not many CVs around): Made way worse by making AA builds/skills actually worthless

 

- Better complexity curve: Failed as obscure mechanics are vital to current CV play

- Enjoyable gameplay

-> for a broader playerbase: Statistically failed

-> more options to combat CVs: Made way worse by taking away options to combat CVs

 

As such the rework is a complete and utter failure. It has succeeded in none of its goals and problems it was supposed to solve, making key issues even worse in the process.

 

8 hours ago, Isoruku_Yamamoto said:

So, lets zoom in on the CV impact & damage flattening. Average players , and by average i mean players that score say between the 48.5-51.5% WR and also score relatively average damage numbers, can do consistently "well" in cruisers, battleships and destroyers. "Well" is in quote marks there, since well would then be well relative to how they play. So no high damage, but okay damage. It is fairly easy to do consistenly okay in those classes. In CVs though, the skill needed to do roughly the same is a lot higher. This is a known issue, and was certainly not intended. 

 

Except playing CVs naturally requires a completely different skillset when compared to surface ships. Nothing but the most basic controls transfer over. As such it is irrelevant whether a CV player performs well in surface ships in comparison or not.

And given that this is due to the basic design of CVs it is very much working as intended.

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1 hour ago, gslick said:

Because I have a chance to kill the Worcester/Harugumo.  If they kill me its +victory points for them, -points for me.  If I kill them then I get +victory points.  Planes kill me its +victory points for them,  I shoot down all the planes its 0, nada, not squat for me.  That's a major difference.

Yeah lol especially behind island/in smoke. 

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2 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

Cause getting spammed by Worcester /Harugumo is ok but being under attack from cv isn’t ok. :fish_book:

 

 

Go and compare your survival rate in your Worcester to that of your Midway and see if you can work out what the difference between HE spam and air attack is.

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Did wargaming give any comets on the slingshot it feels like a broken gimmick and can not be some thing that was originally intended. ?   

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