CV Rework Discussion

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Are you seriously stating that T4 CVs are balanced? Or was that a typo and you meant “balans’d”? 

 

They're actually balanced. They face absolutely no meaningful opposition, their slow plane speeds are negated by smaller maps, spotting potential is the highest in their bracket for the same reason and they possess high accuracy as with all CVs, thus their damage potential should be absolutely abysmal. And it is.

 

Obviously in higher tiers actual opposition gets introduced, but if you want to globally nerf AA to the point where potatoes can succesfully play without getting punished then a damage potential comparable to T4 CVs percentage-wise would in fact be more than fair.

[xxNihilanxx]

23 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

I think we have some different opinions on certain matters for sure. However this is what “discussions” are about as long as it stays constructive. And as long as we are all still aiming at an overall “fair” state for the game 

 

 

This is the thing, though, there is no indication from your suggestions that you either want or would recognise a fair game if we had it.

 

Since 0.8.5 the balance between CVs and surface ships is closer than at any other time, at least since the rework.

 

Good CV players peform well - just as it is with every other class.

Bad CV players perform poorly - just as it is with every other class.

Mediocre CV players perform mediocrely - just as it is with every other class.

 

This is what we would expect to see in a reasonably balanced game.

 

The issue is that prior to 0.8.5 CVs were super-easy-mode and so bad and mediocre players were achieving improved results and immediately assumed that this was due to their skill. It wasn't, it was down to the class being braindead-easy with zero effective counterplay. Now that the balance has been pulled more in line with the other classes players are achieving the "correct" level of performance for their skill level. This has come as a huge slap in the ego for the bad and mediocre players who now think that CVs have been overnerfed because they can no longer achieve the kind of results they got used to.

 

You have said multiple times that you now find CV play "boring" but what you find boring others may enjoy - you can't balance around boredom levels. Some players find super-easy-mode in games boring and so seek to challenge themselves to improve in order to be engaged. It's not WG's fault that you derive your excitement from farming unearned results from a super-easy-mode instead of from improving your performance. Your boredom level is in your hands, not theirs.

 

If you spent as much time in game attempting to improve your skill levels as you do on the forum attempting to claim that CVs are underpowered maybe this whole thing would be less of an issue for you.

 

Maybe, instead of constantly arguing with the guy, you should ask @El2aZeR for help instead. Not that it is his responsibilty to improve your skill level, that lies solely with you, but I have it on good authority that he is a really nice guy, a fluffy kitten,  if you will, with a massive amount of tolerance for the lesser-skilled players in this game.

[KillStealBoss]

2 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

You have said multiple times that you now find CV play "boring" but what you find boring others may enjoy - you can't balance around boredom levels. Some players find super-easy-mode in games boring and so seek to challenge themselves to improve in order to be engaged.

Some say torpedo DDs are boring though others enjoy them and have good results on them. For some the DM / Atlanta / Worcester playstyle is boring cause you need to position near an island and spam. Others say same thing about IJN gunboats. People are different and sometimes see same things in 180 degrees different than others. 

[KillStealBoss]

25 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

They're actually balanced. They face absolutely no meaningful opposition, their slow plane speeds are negated by smaller maps, spotting potential is the highest in their bracket for the same reason and they possess high accuracy as with all CVs, thus their damage potential should be absolutely abysmal. And it is.

 

Obviously in higher tiers actual opposition gets introduced, but if you want to globally nerf AA to the point where potatoes can succesfully play without getting punished then a damage potential comparable to T4 CVs percentage-wise would in fact be more than fair.

Their problem is really bad damage potential. Not meaningful at all.

In fact T4 are only to teach new players the steering of the squads and torping / bombing. 

[Miragetank90]

13 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

In fact T4 are only to teach new players the steering of the squads and torping / bombing. 

 

Unfortunately, the gameplay as a T4 CV is so dull, even compared to before, that if I we're a total newcomer to the class and/or didn't have any care for naval aviation I would just drop it completely.

 

But that's another matter 

And, at least getting to T6 is quick. 

[Sunleader]

30 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Their problem is really bad damage potential. Not meaningful at all.

In fact T4 are only to teach new players the steering of the squads and torping / bombing. 

 

On that I disagree.

I have been Playing the British T4 CV to reach T6 lately.

 

Now I used Exp Camo and Signals as much as Possible and then just Free Exp to Finish it because the Gameplay was so Incredible Boring. (And also because I somehow felt really Guilty for Ruining the Game for New Players so much)

So I only Played 12 Games.

 

But for an Experienced CV Player the Hermes is an Awesome Sealclubbing Tool.

 

 

Now the 40k Average Damage might Speak for Low Damage Potential. Which is True.

The T4 CVs dont make alot of Damage.

 

But their Ability to Finish off Priority Targets all over the very Small Maps.

And their Ability to just Ruin the Day for the DDs which thanks to lack of Radar and the Short Range of BBs etc etc are usually very Strong in T4 is in a class of its own.

 

 

So the T4 CVs are Extremely Game Deciding.

The only Reason that they are Balanced.

Is because in T4 most of the time you will have Newbes.

People which half of the Time drop too close for the Torpedo to go Live. And otherwise miss you by Miles without any actual Action on your Part as the Target.

 

 

Now Pls Note.

I do consider T4 CVs Fine.

Since at that Tier. Noobs wont Employ Tactics that I as an Somewhat Experienced CV Player can utilize.

 

But they are clearly doing Meaningful Damage :)

[KillStealBoss]

@Sunleader the Hermes yes. But the other 2..... Nope 

[Sunleader]

57 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

@Sunleader the Hermes yes. But the other 2..... Nope 

 

No I am not going for the other T4 CVs just to Prove this Wrong :P

 

[KillStealBoss]

5 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

No I am not going for the other T4 CVs just to Prove this Wrong :P

 

Tbh I tried. And both are equally bad. To do more than 40k is almost impossible.

[1MajorKoenig]

2 hours ago, xxNihilanxx said:

If you spent as much time in game attempting to improve your skill levels as you do on the forum attempting to claim that CVs are underpowered maybe this whole thing would be less of an issue for you.

 

I think it is none of your business where I spend my time and why.

 

As for the rest: we certainly disagree on certain aspects but I am far too drunk to argue right

now (plus the weather is far to great to be inside).

 

As for the suggestion to learn from Elazer - probably a wise idea if he is indeed doing such things 

[CptBarney]

2 hours ago, Miragetank90 said:

 

Unfortunately, the gameplay as a T4 CV is so dull, even compared to before, that if I we're a total newcomer to the class and/or didn't have any care for naval aviation I would just drop it completely.

 

But that's another matter 

And, at least getting to T6 is quick. 

i actually like the hosho, managed two 100k games in her and got a kraken too lol. Slow planes are annoying but hitting over 50k isn't unheard of.

 

also killed this bloody chinese DD that kept attacking me and ended him right at the last sec before we could lose lol.

 

his reaction:

 

 

mine:

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, MacArthur92 said:

Tbh I tried. And both are equally bad. To do more than 40k is almost impossible.

 

Actually Hosho can be quite topkek with her AP bombs.

No idea how Langley performs nowadays but I have good memories of her RFs.

[Operation_Crossroads_1]

5 hours ago, xxNihilanxx said:

This is what we would expect to see in a reasonably balanced game.

 

The basic issue remains, what do CV offer back to the other ships in the game?

[KillStealBoss]

29 minutes ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

 

The basic issue remains, what do CV offer back to the other ships in the game?

What BBs offer? Total kampa? Amazing.

[Operation_Crossroads_1]

1 hour ago, MacArthur92 said:

What BBs offer? Total kampa? Amazing.

 

Torp them in a DD, maybe burn them down in a CA, can you practically do that against a CV?

[KillStealBoss]

9 minutes ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

 

Torp them in a DD, maybe burn them down in a CA, can you practically do that against a CV?

If it gets spotted , it can be deleted. Believe me in some battles I died in that way. If you wanna be effective on CV you need to position yourself closer. And if planes spot you in the won't moment.... Then all BBs unload on you. And if they won't kill you, the enemy CV will kill you off. 

[Operation_Crossroads_1]

7 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

If it gets spotted , it can be deleted. Believe me in some battles I died in that way. If you wanna be effective on CV you need to position yourself closer. And if planes spot you in the won't moment.... Then all BBs unload on you. And if they won't kill you, the enemy CV will kill you off. 

 

Your T10 CV survival rate is over 80% and I'd wager that most of the remaining 20% were late on when the game was already decided, as a point of comparison most of your DD are sub 50% and sometimes sub 40%.

 

Not naming and shaming, this is just what I'd expect from a good player.

[KillStealBoss]

39 minutes ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

 

Your T10 CV survival rate is over 80% and I'd wager that most of the remaining 20% were late on when the game was already decided, as a point of comparison most of your DD are sub 50% and sometimes sub 40%.

 

Not naming and shaming, this is just what I'd expect from a good player.

I really didn't count how many times I was deleted so far in CV by being spotted. Mostly not on T10, cause they have armour deck. Had such thing on Kaga and GZ - once I did only 12k dmg on GZ cause Slava deleted me on one shot 22km away, I had only rocket planes in the air. Ofc CV will have even better survival than BB. But it's not untouchable, even if he didn't do major mistake. Gets some unlucky shots and that's it. 

[Operation_Crossroads_1]

Just now, MacArthur92 said:

did only 12k dmg

 

You want to know how many 0 damage games I've had in a DD, the fact that you can say "only 12k" makes me go:

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Ofc CV will have even better survival than BB. But it's not untouchable, even if he didn't do major mistake. Gets some unlucky shots and that's it. 

 

Surviving 80%+ of battles and probably only getting killed late game and once it's already decided anyway is as close to untouchable as you can get, and even WG admit that BB live too long.

 

Plus, for a laugh @El2aZeR  is doing about 95% survivability so L2P and you are as near as damnit untouchable.

[KillStealBoss]

Just now, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

You want to know how many 0 damage games I've had in a DD, the fact that you can say "only 12k" makes me go:

Doing 12k dmg on CV - when enemy CV is alive - is like TK teammate. It's worse than 0 dmg on DD believe me. Your team list the CV on the 1 minute of the game, you get less spotting potential than enemy team..... That's a huge disadvantage. 

[KillStealBoss]

5 minutes ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

Plus, for a laugh @El2aZeR  is doing about 95% survivability so L2P and you are as near as damnit untouchable.

Well he's a better CV player. And I got worse WR than him so yeah, in a loss the enemies will eventually find you and kill you fast. But as I tell you , I was killed many many times on mid game or even on the first minutes because of some long range lucky bastard that got me. Mostly Yama or Montana that blapped me for 70% of my hp, they tell their CV to kill me off venae after that he comes for me free times. 

[Operation_Crossroads_1]

Just now, MacArthur92 said:

Doing 12k dmg on CV - when enemy CV is alive - is like TK teammate. It's worse than 0 dmg on DD believe me. Your team list the CV on the 1 minute of the game, you get less spotting potential than enemy team..... That's a huge disadvantage. 

 

Yeah, great, reward, XP, etc are based on damage so when you say "only 12,000" to a DD player the only thing I can say is:

 

[KillStealBoss]

Just now, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

 

Yeah, great, reward, XP, etc are based on damage so when you say "only 12,000" to a DD player the only thing I can say is:

 

If you weren't the only DD your team still can win. Still both cases is  12k even on T4 CV is crap. On both cases your avr damage and PR goes down. In terms of exp and credits ? Almost no difference. BTW on old RTS system T10 CV doing 100k dmg without dubloon camo was always on some negative income, with premium account on. Not mentioning less than 50k. Now it's better closer to other classes. 

[B051LjKo]

13 hours ago, Sunleader said:

You Guys Should really know by now. That I am never making such Games unless I already have proven it myself......

But Hey. If you want to Embarass yourself by Denying the Truth. Suite yourself I guess.

Indeed, clearly a remarkable achievement. You've managed to make 70K of damage and make a total of one (1) kill. A clear sign that that CVs are still OP.

 

I am embarrassed right now. 

[Sidewayz]

Is this the place where people are defending a broken game mechanic? Sure is =) Time to see what's in stock in this discussion.