CV Rework Discussion

[CaptainOkita]

15 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Being a USAF pilot in itself means at least basic competence has been achieved.

A more accurate analogy would be the USAF turning down planes with better performance because some hobby pilot who has never sat in the cockpit of a military aircraft couldn't handle it. That'd be ed.

And the vast majority of the CV playerbase consists precisely of those.

 

 

Which is precisely how it needs to be. Why potatoes should find success in a CV when they do not in e.g. DDs is beyond me. Contrary to popular belief this game is not solely about selfish enjoyment.

Balancing around unicums is still gonna make that problem worse. Regardless of class - you'll have an artificial skill floor that would make other unicums claim that the one they are not maining is imba. Player retention would go to heck because the average player can't figure it out. (zero tutorials is on WG again).

This is the selfish enjoyment you mentioned earlier. New players haven't learnt those tricks and do miserably while unicums dominate because they did. Its how things should be if spuds can grow out of it.

 

All too ironic that this logic led to the rework in the first place.

[KillStealBoss]

11 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

But again for you: while surface Ships shouldn’t feel helpless (that is not the case after 0.8.5 - they drive in easy mode now) the plane losses shouldn’t be as excessive as today and it should be possible to mitigate plane losses. Right now it is braided throughing things at the wall hoping something sticks. That is braindead and terrible design and not fun at all. 

 

When playing surface ships it’s absolutely irrelevant if a CV is in the game as my AA will keep me save anyway. That is not balance and whoever calls that balance isn’t honest and just looking for no-effort play 

It is more balanced than before 0.8.5 

 

[El2aZeR]

25 minutes ago, CaptainOkita said:

Balancing around unicums is still gonna make that problem worse.

 

And yet you can't balance anything around your playerbase being completely braindead either. That'll obviously make whatever mechanic way too powerful.

 

It's ironic indeed, especially when you consider that WG wanted more players who have never played CVs or even their game before to come to the class, leading to a huge influx of new and inexperienced players that have no clue what they're doing.

Meanwhile the skilled veterans which already were treated like garbage have essentially been handed an eviction notice. Along with WG putting in essentially the same effort in educating their playerbase how to play as before and you have an inevitable disaster on your hand.

[1MajorKoenig]

49 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Being a USAF pilot in itself means at least basic competence has been achieved.

A more accurate analogy would be the USAF turning down planes with better performance because some hobby pilot who has never sat in the cockpit of a military aircraft couldn't handle it. That'd be ed.

And the vast majority of the CV playerbase consists precisely of those.

 

That is a very poor comparison. A game is per definition casual whereas survival on the battlefield isn’t really, is it?

 

I don’t know how you come to the conclusion that players can’t handle the other classes btw. The playerbase has no issues with the other three classes. All of them are quite easy to play, including the “impactful” DDs. All of them are balanced around a healthy average so yea, unicums can still pull off their thing. Why should CVs be different on only playable by some?

[anonym_qJ2ys6RN5PbU]

10 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Did anyone take the latest survey about CVs? It's actually comedy gold.

"What do you think would happen to your squadron if it flew into the black explosion area of AA shells?" is a real question from it.

Yeah, that was funny, and it really well describe the level of competence WG have and their ignorance about the player base IQ level.

[159Hunter]

1 hour ago, CaptainOkita said:

Thats where you are wrong. All engineering disciplines use the average case as a design guideline.

Yeah, nope. Go and check the methodology used in the Eurocodes used for construction. They do indeed work with a statistical model. But, for obvious safety reasons, they most certainly do not work with the average values.

 

11 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

I have the feeling you are pulling my leg dude. You keep repeating this bull- about unopposed even I told you already. 

 

But again for you: while surface Ships shouldn’t feel helpless (that is not the case after 0.8.5 - they drive in easy mode now) the plane losses shouldn’t be as excessive as today and it should be possible to mitigate plane losses. Right now it is braided throughing things at the wall hoping something sticks. That is braindead and terrible design and not fun at all. 

I"ll try one more time in easy words, as you keep twisting mine:

before 0.8.5: NO balance - CV easy, braindeath gameplay

since 0.8.5: balance - CV needs to think about target selection

 

11 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

When playing surface ships it’s absolutely irrelevant if a CV is in the game as my AA will keep me save anyway. That is not balance and whoever calls that balance isn’t honest and just looking for no-effort play 

And you call me dishonest? FE: look at spotting damage numbers, highest of any class. So I guess you call spotting irrelevant?

 

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, B051LjKo said:

Yes, the mighty Kremlin is shitting his pants when he sees you in the red team.

 

Yep.

 

1 hour ago, B051LjKo said:

He knows another 70K of dmg

 

Yep.

 

 

1 hour ago, B051LjKo said:

 for 150 planes lost

 

Nope.

Just 80.

I used Graf Zeppelin in that Game after 0.8.5 Hit.

It doesnt have the Big Reserves of a Kaga.

 

1 hour ago, B051LjKo said:

 to prove once again how broken CVs are.

 

Yep.

Not that Hard to do by the way.

 

1 hour ago, B051LjKo said:

 In fact, if you focus Kremlin, you just might chip 30K from him until deplaned and his first heal kicks in.

 

Nope. Sorry. But I would Recommend leaving the Facts to me.

Because the Fact is. It cost me 28 Planes to Slug the Kremlin for 45k Damage and Sink him.

 

1 hour ago, CaptainOkita said:

This is why i ignore that guy. He writes blatant lies and false corelations in huge walls of text as if it somehow makes them truer. Kremlin has the best AA period in my experience even before 0.8.5 - the flak is so dense you shouldn't attack. If said flak smog spawns on your planes directly they are all gone.

 

You Guys Should really know by now. That I am never making such Games unless I already have proven it myself......

But Hey. If you want to Embarass yourself by Denying the Truth. Suite yourself I guess.

 

[Filipin00]

Was the Kremlin alone? Perhaps near the end of the battle when most of his AA mounts were gone?

 

Those would be my only explanations because I have Graf, with all the skills and modules for plane survivability and......I can't even....

[Sunleader]

10 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Did anyone take the latest survey about CVs? It's actually comedy gold.

"What do you think would happen to your squadron if it flew into the black explosion area of AA shells?" is a real question from it.

 

I am not Surprised by this at all.

No Offense to anyone. But most CV Players really have no Idea about the Basics of this Game.

 

CVs are still the Easiest to Play Class in this Game.

Because as long as you Obey the Basics you will do rather Good.

For other Classes even Minor Mistakes can be Punished really Severely.

But as a CV as long as you dont REALLY mess up Big Time. You will still get a Respectable Result.

 

Many CV Players

Dont know how to Evade Heavy AA.

Dont know how to Handle DDs that turned AA Off.

Dont know how to use Islands for a Covered Approach.

Dont know how to Plan an Attack Vector Properly.

Dont know which Targets they can Attack Safely and which they should Avoid unless there is a Reason to Attack it.

 

And these Things are not Advanced Tactics or Pro Skills.

These are Basic Skills that any CV Player should easily have by Default after having Played 100 Games in T6 or higher CVs.

 

Many People either dont Evade Heavy AA at all. Or they make only Minimal Evasion to Evade the older Black Clouds that Spawned in Front of them.

Many People seem to have no Idea what the Minimum Distance is to Start a Attack and thus Start Attacks on a DD which popped up 2km in front which they then of course will never hit.

Many People will Happily fly over High Mountain Islands at a Minotaur not Realizing that this will Delete their Planes cause they need 3 times as long to go over the Island than if they went around it.

Many People for some Reason just Attack the next Ship they See even if behind that Ship is the whole Enemy Fleet Blob thus basicly Forfeiting the entire Squadron by that Attack cause they will never get out of this Blob again.

Many People for some Reason think that Attacking Baltimore and Cleveland in a T6 CV is a Good Idea and then wonder why they lose alot of Planes. Meanwhile the Bayern which is Isolated on the Flank is Ignored Entirely because it would be 4km further away....

 

 

So dong get me wrong.

But I do have a slight Idea why WG might really be thinking that alot of their CV Playerbase is (to quote Jingles on the occassion) not really able to think and breath at the same time...

[KillStealBoss]

10 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

These are Basic Skills that any CV Player should easily have by Default after having Played 100 Games in T6 or higher CVs.

Don't forget about free exp "pros" that get into T10 from T4... 

 

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

Was the Kremlin alone? Perhaps near the end of the battle when most of his AA mounts were gone?

 

Those would be my only explanations because I have Graf, with all the skills and modules for plane survivability and......I can't even....

 

This was about Midgame.

And as you can tell from 45k Damage (Kremlin has 100k HP) I was not the only one Attacking it.

So I am sure he lost some AA Mounts already. 

But I still lost 28 Planes to him. And I lost 24 to the Minotaur which I Double Citadelled pretty early in the Match and later Torpedoed because I wanted to Drive him out of his Smoke Screen.

(He made the smarter choice and took the Torpedo instead of leaving the smoke albeit it didnt use much to him in the end as a Spotted Cruiser never Survives long)

So 28 Planes Suggest that most of his AA was Still perfectly Fine.

 

 

But you dont really need that to be the Case.

You can do that with your Skills as well.

 

The Most Importand thing on really Any Ship in this Game.

Is to know your Enemy and use the Right Weapon for the Job.

In case of the CV using the Right Plane I mean ^^

 

A Kremlin sure has Scary AA.

But its AA is nowhere near Strong enough to Stop Torpedo Bombers from Dropping.

And while the Kremlin has a Good Torpedo Bulge. Its Bow and Stern are not Covered by the Torpedo Bulge just like all other Ships.

And even for Kremlin. Torpedo Damage is mostly Splashing the Citadel. So Torpedo Damage can most of the Time only be Repaired for 10%

 

Now GZ Torps do about 4k Damage if you Hit Bow or Stern. And only 2.5k for a Hit on the Belt.

I hit 12 Torps for 34k Damage (about 4k of that was the Torp that hit the Minotaur in the Smoke)

So 30k Damage from 11 Torpedoes. You can Tell Fairly easily that I attacked the Kremlin almost Purely with Torpedo Bombers.

Average Damage of 2.7k per Torpedo tells you. I mostly hit the Bulge Armor with a few Hits on Bow and Stern :)

 

The other 15k are from Rockets and Fires.

Because even if Kremlin only has 1 Minute Cooldown on its Damage Control.

It is still one Minute Cooldown :)

So as soon as I managed to set a Flooding I started my Rocket Planes. And Tried to Set a Fire on Him by Pummeling his Deck with Rockets.

Didnt do much Direct Damage. But it does have a High Chance to Set a Fire.

And since Fires Deal Damage based on Percentage of HP even the 30-40 Seconds of a Fire Burning due to not having Damage Control will Hurt a Kremlin Because these 30-40 Seconds are still about 10-15% of its HP Worth of Fire Damage.

Which in case of the Kremlin means 10-15k Damage.

Now you could Bother Calculating how long he was Forced to let the Fire Burn exactly to do the 13.5k Damage to him. But it should have been something around 30-35 Seconds before he was able to use Damage Con again.

 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

I think it's quite telling that the jist of the latest discussion is about how (bad) CV players can easily survive bad decisions (their hull stays in tact), but lose their striking capability (lose a lot of planes). If a cruiser or dd captain would make these mistakes, they would find themselves in port instantly. CV captains incorrectly assume that as their hull survives after making bad plays with their planes, they should still have the tools to keep striking regardless the bad decisions they made. Apparantly, having overly durable hulls, is creating false expectations. This suggests that the next balancing step should be geared towards lowering the survival rates of CV hulls by changing the fighter and repair consumable. CV's that sink will no longer assume they should be able to strike up to the end of the round.

 

/END SARCASM < - this part is important

[Sunleader]

10 minutes ago, Europizza said:

I think it's quite telling that the jist of the latest discussion is about how bad CV players can easily survive bad decisions (their hull stays in tact), but lose their striking capability (lose a lot of planes). If a cruiser or dd captain would make these mistakes, they would find themselves in port instantly. CV captains incorrectly assume that as their hull survives after making bad plays with their planes, they should still have the tools to keep striking regardless the bad decisions they made. Apparantly, having overly durable hulls, is creating false expectations. This suggests that the next balancing step should be geared towards lowering the survival rates of CV hulls by changing the fighter and repair consumable. CV's that sink will no longer assume they should be able to strike up to the end of the round.

 

/END SARCASM < - this part is important

 

Thats why I suggested to change CV Gameplay to be all about Planes.

CV Should get a Limited Set of Planes with no Regeneration whatsoever.

 

And the moment he no longer has at least 1 Full Attack Wing left his CV Should be taken over by a Bot which will Drive to the Closest Map Border and Leave the Battlefield.

 

So the CVs Planes Really become his HP in a Sense.

And Players Actually Understand their Planes as their HP in a CV.

 

(it would also Fix the Complaint that a CV who got Deplaned just ends up Waiting for the Game to End)

[CaptainOkita]

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

And yet you can't balance anything around your playerbase being completely braindead either. That'll obviously make whatever mechanic way too powerful.

 

It's ironic indeed, especially when you consider that WG wanted more players who have never played CVs or even their game before to come to the class, leading to a huge influx of new and inexperienced players that have no clue what they're doing.

Meanwhile the skilled veterans which already were treated like garbage have essentially been handed an eviction notice. Along with WG putting in essentially the same effort in educating their playerbase how to play as before and you have an inevitable disaster on your hand.

All too true.

[1MajorKoenig]

3 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

before 0.8.5: NO balance - CV easy, braindeath gameplay

since 0.8.5: balance - CV needs to think about target selection

 

Thinking about target selection is generally fine. That’s not my problem. My problem are the excessive plane losses that are inherent to the way the “balans” is done. It makes it a dull and unfun kamikaze game. A CV should be able to mitigate losses (other than through this silly sling shot). I would even trade in a little alpha for better survivability to make the CV game less frustrating. 

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Thinking about target selection is generally fine. That’s not my problem. My problem are the excessive plane losses that are inherent to the way the “balans” is done. It makes it a dull and unfun kamikaze game. A CV should be able to mitigate losses (other than through this silly sling shot). I would even trade in a little alpha for better survivability to make the CV game less frustrating. 

CV gameplay was already dull and unfun pre 0.8.5, you just didn't notice it yet because you were high on how easy it was become to be top dawg in the food chain.

[Miragetank90]

5 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

Or to put it into perspective, @Miragetank90 would you consider yourself an expert CV player? You're 91st place on the leaderboard.

 

I consider myself an expert at not thinking too hard.

If I am 91st place, however, safe to say that ThE ENd iS NEaR

 

So don't think too much - just grab your waifu and go out with a bang 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

The playerbase has no issues with the other three classes.

 

Except they all fail with those too.

Unless you count ~40% WR and <30k avg dmg in any class as "successful".

 

What the other classes have is a stable and large enough playerbase where such s get partially balanced out by players who have at least achieved basic competence. This is not the case with CVs.

 

And if you wanna have an example of that, just look at the Enterprise.

At rework release she was already the most overpowered T8 CV by far. This didn't show in her stats because, guess what, I was the only skilled CV player playing her while everyone else was praising Kaga or Saipan. So in terms of average stats she was underperforming, I was literally the sole reason why she didn't fall below the tech tree CVs.

And what did WG do? The buffed her HARD because she was supposedly underperforming, creating what would eventually become not only the most powerful CV, but the most broken p2w premium in the entire game. And it could've been way worse if I had not played her as people discovered only after the other premium CVs got nerfed how utterly broken she is.

 

So no, CV averages are worthless as balancing data. At least WG seems to have learned that lesson from the Enterprise debacle.

[1MajorKoenig]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Except they all fail with those too.

Unless you count ~40% WR and <30k avg dmg in any class as "successful".

 

What the other classes have is a stable and large enough playerbase where such s get partially balanced out by players who have at least achieved basic competence. This is not the case with CVs.

 

And if you wanna have an example of that, just look at the Enterprise.

At rework release she was already the most overpowered T8 CV by far. This didn't show in her stats because, guess what, I was the only skilled CV player playing her while everyone else was praising Kaga or Saipan. So in terms of average stats she was underperforming, I was literally the sole reason why she didn't fall below the tech tree CVs.

And what did WG do? The buffed her HARD because she was supposedly underperforming, creating what would eventually become not only the most powerful CV, but the most broken p2w premium in the entire game. And it could've been way worse if I had not played her as people discovered only after the other premium CVs got nerfed how utterly broken she is.

 

So no, CV averages are worthless as balancing data. At least WG seems to have learned that lesson from the Enterprise debacle.

 

You are mixing up two points in my opinion. 

 

First - it was an incredible stupid idea to release premium CVs. Based on what should they be balanced? In an unstable meta, a learning playerbase And And And it was impossible to create anything reasonable. Results can be seen. Big E grossly overpowered, GZ useless and Kaga crap, Saipan so so. Good Job, balancing department. 0.5 / 4 balanced.

 

But that aside - the CV game needs to look at how the playerbase is getting along with them. It doesn’t help if WG would balance around a small group of good players leaving the rest in the rain. You admitted that group is rather small.

 

I disagree any other class has a particular skill problem. Sure there are terrible players in each class and there is a big bunch of average players and a small amount of really good players. But none of the classes - except CVs - has a problem with the “average” doing ok or better. 

 

From where we are WG can easily into two different directions:

 

1) make CV play harder thus putting off average and new players and likely ending up in the same mess we are coming from 

 

or 2) make CV play more accessible - meaning less hard in most cases. This would naturally result in better results for decent players hence why this would need to go hand in hand with reducing some of the potential a CV has and potentially closing some of the exploits

[CaptainOkita]

3 hours ago, 159Hunter said:

Yeah, nope. Go and check the methodology used in the Eurocodes used for construction. They do indeed work with a statistical model. But, for obvious safety reasons, they most certainly do not work with the average values.

 

safety protocols are also written after statistical analysis drived from observed tests/simulations. Its not the same considering you have to make sure you perform well above the margin of error or people will die. I doubt WoWS ever killed anyone.

 

Even so you still start from building a good average case estimator (google MMSE for an easy to understand and reasonably ok method). After that you can make sure to have a solid grasp on avoiding really bad outcomes.

 

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I disagree any other class has a particular skill problem. Sure there are terrible players in each class and there is a big bunch of average players and a small amount of really good players. But none of the classes - except CVs - has a problem with the “average” doing ok or better. 

 

Except CVs don't have a large amount of average players. CVs have a large amount of terrible players, a tiny amount of average ones and at best two dozen who are actually skilled.

That was my point all along. I'm using the term "average player" for braindead potatoes because lets face it, they make up the largest portion of the playerbase by far and as such are the "average wows player".

 

And regardless of your stance on premium CVs, Enterprise is the perfect example for why balancing around average CV stats is a stupid idea to say the least.

 

Also we are already where we started technically speaking. In fact we have actually taken several steps backwards with future adjustments poised to take us back even further.

And this proves what I have been saying all along. Playability of reworked CVs stands in direct contradiction to balance. Exploits are used to minimize plane losses, if you remove those but buff plane survivability then those exploits simply aren't needed anymore making their removal moot. And unless you want all CVs to feel like T4 where their damage potential is about right to balance out all their other advantages a nerf to alpha strike is not gonna be enough to justify such a gigantic buff.

[xxNihilanxx]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Except CVs don't have a large amount of average players. CVs have a large amount of terrible players, a tiny amount of average ones and at best two dozen who are actually skilled.

That was my point all along. I'm using the term "average player" for braindead potatoes because lets face it, they make up the largest portion of the playerbase by far and as such are the "average wows player".

 

And regardless of your stance on premium CVs, Enterprise is the perfect example for why balancing around average CV stats is a stupid idea to say the least.

 

Also we are already where we started technically speaking. In fact we have actually taken several steps backwards with future adjustments poised to take us back even further.

And this proves what I have been saying all along. Playability of reworked CVs stands in direct contradiction to balance. Exploits are used to minimize plane losses, if you remove those but buff plane survivability then those exploits simply aren't needed anymore making their removal moot. And unless you want all CVs to feel like T4 where their damage potential is about right to balance out all their other advantages a nerf to alpha strike is not gonna be enough to justify such a gigantic buff.

 

Mate, I admire your patience, truly I do, but has it ever occurred to you that you are stuck in a loop of trying to explain the "bleeding obvious" to people who are not only incapable of understanding but also, due to their inherent bias, unwilling to do so?

[1MajorKoenig]

7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And unless you want all CVs to feel like T4 where their damage potential is about right to balance out all their other advantages

 

Are you seriously stating that T4 CVs are balanced? Or was that a typo and you meant “balans’d”? 

 

There is no single reason to play T4 CVs. They deal almost no damage and don’t have any other notable strength either. Any other T4 ship has more impact. I wouldn’t call “useless” = “balanced”.

 

I can see why WG wanted T4 CVs grossly underpowered but that’s about it. 

[KillStealBoss]

3 minutes ago, xxNihilanxx said:

 

Mate, I admire your patience, truly I do, but has it ever occurred to you that you are stuck in a loop of trying to explain the "bleeding obvious" to people who are not only incapable of understanding but also, due to their inherent bias, unwilling to do so?

Well @1MajorKoenig does understand very well. But he doesn't want to accept that. 

[1MajorKoenig]

1 minute ago, MacArthur92 said:

Well @1MajorKoenig does understand very well. But he doesn't want to accept that. 

 

I think we have some different opinions on certain matters for sure. However this is what “discussions” are about as long as it stays constructive. And as long as we are all still aiming at an overall “fair” state for the game