CV Rework Discussion

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

Well, they hammered it into the ground and nobody is playing which is not remotely surprising. It won't get rolled back, it's as close to balance as it's going to get, just not accessible anymore. The balans again returns to BB's.

 

So, CV, Smoke, Fire, Flooding, DD's pretty much all nerfed.... the Commie BB's are balans as intended, and BB's in general are firing more HE than ever.

 

That being the case, can the mods unpin this now so everyone can move on to to discussing the removal of non BB classes altogether in a new and colourful thread?

[CaptainOkita]

3 hours ago, WynnZeroOne said:

Well, they hammered it into the ground and nobody is playing which is not remotely surprising. It won't get rolled back, it's as close to balance as it's going to get, just not accessible anymore. The balans again returns to BB's.

 

So, CV, Smoke, Fire, Flooding, DD's pretty much all nerfed.... the Commie BB's are balans as intended, and BB's in general are firing more HE than ever.

 

That being the case, can the mods unpin this now so everyone can move on to to discussing the removal of non BB classes altogether in a new and colourful thread?

As @El2aZeR pointed out even devs couldn't stomach playing this. 

[Pushi2]

yeah we need a cv rework. any plans when the beta will end?

 

[KillStealBoss]

35 minutes ago, Pushi2 said:

yeah we need a cv rework. any plans when the beta will end?

 

0.9.0? 

[159Hunter]

On 7/18/2019 at 7:35 PM, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Your world is simple. “I don’t have to worry and my AA shoots everything done while I am on the phone so that must be balans!”

 

What a bull- sorry. 

 

Plane losse are beyond stupidly excessive. If you are seriously calling that balans you can’t be interested in anything even close to it.

Guess you misread one of my previous posts where I stated that I also play CV. So your statement that AA solves everything is bull.

Starting 0.8.5 it actually does work. Something CVs haven't whitnessed in months. 

 

All you want is to deal damage without being opposed. If that's what you want, I even have a solution: it's called coop.

[1MajorKoenig]

25 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Guess you misread one of my previous posts where I stated that I also play CV. So your statement that AA solves everything is bull.

Starting 0.8.5 it actually does work. Something CVs haven't whitnessed in months. 

 

All you want is to deal damage without being opposed. If that's what you want, I even have a solution: it's called coop.

 

I have the feeling you are pulling my leg dude. You keep repeating this bull- about unopposed even I told you already. 

 

But again for you: while surface Ships shouldn’t feel helpless (that is not the case after 0.8.5 - they drive in easy mode now) the plane losses shouldn’t be as excessive as today and it should be possible to mitigate plane losses. Right now it is braided throughing things at the wall hoping something sticks. That is braindead and terrible design and not fun at all. 

 

When playing surface ships it’s absolutely irrelevant if a CV is in the game as my AA will keep me save anyway. That is not balance and whoever calls that balance isn’t honest and just looking for no-effort play 

[El2aZeR]

12 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

the plane losses shouldn’t be as excessive as today and it should be possible to mitigate plane losses

 

They aren't except against some BBs.

And it is possible to mitigate plane losses.

 

14 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

When playing surface ships it’s absolutely irrelevant if a CV is in the game as my AA will keep me save anyway.

 

And you call me dishonest LOL.

[1MajorKoenig]

1 minute ago, El2aZeR said:

They aren't except against some BBs.

And it is possible to mitigate plane losses.

 

How - other than through some stupid exploits?

 

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

And you call me dishonest LOL.

 

Why? Didn’t call you dishonest. You were always quite open and clear that your target is to destroy the rework. 

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

How - other than through some stupid exploits?

 

They're not exploits. They're working as intended. As hilarious as that is.

Squad shortening, slingshotting, accel bailout and abusing island cover are all perfectly fine in WG's eyes. If you don't want to learn these mechanics, fine. But then you have no right to complain about your ineffectiveness either since you refuse to git gud.

 

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Why? Didn’t call you dishonest.

9 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

All you have been doing since the rework is bad mouthing the rework with varying degrees of honesty.

 

It's not exactly smart to lie when proof is just around the corner, you know?

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

15 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

When playing surface ships it’s absolutely irrelevant if a CV is in the game

My Assashio would like a word with you. 

[El2aZeR]

Did anyone take the latest survey about CVs? It's actually comedy gold.

"What do you think would happen to your squadron if it flew into the black explosion area of AA shells?" is a real question from it.

[xxNihilanxx]

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

"What do you think would happen to your squadron if it flew into the black explosion area of AA shells?" is a real question from it.

 

Erm... not sure I understand all the terms in the question. What do you mean by "black explosion"? What is my "squadron"? What does "think" mean?

[Panocek]

1 minute ago, xxNihilanxx said:

 

Erm... not sure I understand all the terms in the question. What do you mean by "black explosion"? What is my "squadron"? What does "think" mean?

I guess it shows how highly WG think of its customers.

 

 

[xxNihilanxx]

6 minutes ago, Panocek said:

I guess it shows how highly WG think of its customers.

 

 

 

To be fair to them, mate, it's not like they are that far off the mark.

 

By far the majority of this playerbase make me wonder how on earth they manage to coordinate breathing in and out in the correct order (or why they even bother).

[ZoeYarah]

Hi all. 

 

I feel that CVs that I play are in a good spot except for the Graf Zep I am a mediocre player who can still do good in them. The Kaga at first was harsh I started playing CV in 8.4 but the more you learn how to dodge flak and know when and what to engage you can still put allot influence on the battle. The only struggles I have is with the Graf Zepp she is really hard to use she has a low respawn rate and the hanger space of the Saipan which it makes really hard to use. But so far the more I play the more I feel that the AA is not as harsh as it made out to be. The only thing that I noticed is that the Enterprise seems to be really strong compared to other CV's and the Graff Zepp falls short in comparison. Mabey WG should look at that. Best regards. 

[Latur_Husky]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Did anyone take the latest survey about CVs? It's actually comedy gold.

"What do you think would happen to your squadron if it flew into the black explosion area of AA shells?" is a real question from it.

I didn't even received that survey lol... 

 

Anyway that rework is one of the biggest WG failures so far. They managed to succesfully piss off literally every single player in the game with how badly they've done it. During every single survey while reworked CV's were tested they've received feedback that lack of manual control over AA is not a good idea and even though CV gameplay is pretty enyoable it's not fun for other classes and it doesn't involve skill of both parties. They still decided to roll out fail that is called patch 0.8.0 and now they over-nerfed the carriers just because while reworking CV gameplay mechanics they failed to rework AA mechanics. So now what can easily be seen is CV player-base is declining because CV's became almost unplayable after all the post 0.8.0 nerfs. Plane losses are very excessive, damage output from successful strikes is laughable (with few exceptions being IJN torpedoes and AP bombs if RNJesus is kind enough to grant you good rolls), DD's can still take excessive damage from rocket strikes, fighter plane is almost useless as it's visible from miles away and it's reaction time is delayed by over 10 seconds and CV's have literally no influence on the battle as even semi-competent potato player can easily neglect that pitiful damage strikes can do while successfully shooting down rest of the squadron. Not to mention that their latest CV line is the weakest one in the game...

 

Why do we have multiple drops from a squadrons if there is never a chance to drop more than once maybe twice if we're talking about some DD's? 

 

Fighter mechanics is also broken and should be completely reworked to be actually useful in protecting your own team. Why can't we attach fighters to one of our team members to give them constant cover? 

 

WG should reconsider giving manual control over AA to DD/CA/BB players so it involves some skill in taking down the aircraft squadrons, it will compensate for excessive losses CV has to take to make that 0.5 - 10k drop every 3 - 5 minutes. It will also make AA stronger in fact as good players will be able to fully neglect the attack while worse players will leave some opportunities to CV players to actually make it through with their attacks. Aura system is the worst thing in this game and should never be introduced for anything else than short range AA. 

[1MajorKoenig]

8 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

It's not exactly smart to lie when proof is just around the corner, you know?

 

Didn’t mean you are dishonest, especially not about your intentions - that came across wrong. Still I am not sure - as you are constantly neglecting averages and average skills in your balancing arguments - if you are using these to support your opinion rather than looking from a global perspective. Which is average btw and which applies to All classes  

[El2aZeR]

47 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

as you are constantly neglecting averages and average skills in your balancing arguments

 

Average skill is precisely why I'm dismissing averages as representative data. To say it is down the drain would be an understatement. As such averages will inevitably be down the drain as well. To balance a class around such numbers generated by completely braindead s is the absolute worst thing you can do.

 

Or to put it into perspective, @Miragetank90 would you consider yourself an expert CV player? You're 91st place on the leaderboard.

@Sunleader too, a self described mediocre CV player who doesn't even use "working-as-intended" mechanics was in the top 100 until this week. @Saiyko, who I don't think will describe himself as an elite CV player either, also was quite high up there at one point.

Fact is the majority of players capable of playing the class to even an acceptable standard has been obliterated and only 20 or so can be considered truly skilled. Average numbers generated are thus representative of how terrible potato CV are, not an indicator for their potential in any way. Again using @Sunleader's numbers he's been pulling a respectable 54% WR, 90k average damage and 1.46 KPM which should be right in the ballpark for results of an average CV player who knows the basic fundamentals.

 

On a different note, new weekly numbers are out.

 

A combined 2152 reworked CV players.

One year ago it was 2570 players.

Last snapshot of RTS was 2220 players.

Kek.

[22cm]

18 hours ago, CaptainOkita said:

As @El2aZeR pointed out even devs couldn't stomach playing this. 

Devs can not stomach playing their own game at all, not only CVs. 

[B051LjKo]

On 7/18/2019 at 8:21 AM, Sunleader said:

 

Even the Mightly Kremlin is Fodder for my T8 CV even in 0.8.5

 

Yes, the mighty Kremlin is shitting his pants when he sees you in the red team. He knows another 70K of dmg for 150 planes lost game is coming to prove once again how broken CVs are. In fact, if you focus Kremlin, you just might chip 30K from him until deplaned and his first heal kicks in.

[CaptainOkita]

3 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Yes, the mighty Kremlin is shitting his pants when he sees you in the red team. He knows another 70K of dmg for 150 planes lost game is coming to prove once again how broken CVs are. In fact, if you focus Kremlin, you just might chip 30K from him until deplaned and his first heal kicks in.

This is why i ignore that guy. He writes blatant lies and false corelations in huge walls of text as if it somehow makes them truer. Kremlin has the best AA period in my experience even before 0.8.5 - the flak is so dense you shouldn't attack. If said flak smog spawns on your planes directly they are all gone.

[CaptainOkita]

49 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Average skill is precisely why I'm dismissing averages as representative data. To say it is down the drain would be an understatement. As such averages will inevitably be down the drain as well. To balance a class around such numbers generated by completely braindead s is the absolute worst thing you can do.

 

@Miragetank90

Thats where you are wrong. All engineering disciplines use the average case as a design guideline. A simple analogy was the cold war era US air force turning down prototypes that could yield better performance simply because the average pilot couldn't handle it. Going back into the game this just means tweaking tactics/exploits which you yourself explained as an exercise in repetition.

 

This design however is flawed beyond any balancing. If it were the case it should happen via avg case not best case. Nerf unicum tricks etc. 

[B051LjKo]

58 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Fact is the majority of players capable of playing the class to even an acceptable standard has been obliterated and only 20 or so can be considered truly skilled. Average numbers generated are thus representative of how terrible potato CV are, not an indicator for their potential in any way.

Well, I've just played some wows in the last few days. Mostly surface ships. First impressions, there is very few people playing lower tiers. I was at Tier 7 most  of the time, every 10 games there would be a CV game.

 

Played two games with Lexington to see how things are going, and this is horrible. A potato nightmare. First game was Tier 6-8, we ended up losing, I've had some 130K of damage at the end of the match. You can still rape Tier 6, but effect on the overall outcome is significantly lower. You have to be careful, and know what you are doing to perform at at a good level. 

 

Second game was tier X, win. Lexington against Tier X ships has almost no chance. unless your exploiting (yes, slingshot is an exploit). I had 5 targets. First one was the Musahi, no great change, you can still harass him, although now you feel AA. Second target was Des Moines, that really hurt, I give up after the first run. Third target was Kremlin, that was a lol. I've used to  harras kremlins with TTs, now it just eats the whole squadron like it was nothing. And that is a BB. After that, I went in chasing Richellie and Shima, that was OK, but again huge loss of impact over 8.4.

 

Conclusion, 8.5 had a huge impact on CVs, and it wil lonly get worse after 8.6 and 8.7. Potatos stande no chance when uptiered. All together, I dont see a lot of people bothering with CVs.

[El2aZeR]

11 minutes ago, CaptainOkita said:

Thats where you are wrong. All engineering disciplines use the average case as a design guideline. A simple analogy was the cold war era US air force turning down prototypes that could yield better performance simply because the average pilot couldn't handle it. Going back into the game this just means tweaking tactics/exploits which you yourself explained as an exercise in repetition.

 

Being a USAF pilot in itself means at least basic competence has been achieved.

A more accurate analogy would be the USAF turning down planes with better performance because some hobby pilot who has never sat in the cockpit of a military aircraft couldn't handle it. That'd be ed.

And the vast majority of the CV playerbase consists precisely of those.

 

6 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Potatos stande no chance when uptiered.

 

Which is precisely how it needs to be. Why potatoes should find success in a CV when they do not in e.g. DDs is beyond me. Contrary to popular belief this game is not solely about selfish enjoyment.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

5 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Conclusion, 8.5 had a huge impact on CVs, and it wil lonly get worse after 8.6 and 8.7. Potatos stande no chance when uptiered. All together, I dont see a lot of people bothering with CVs.

You're conclusion is about the same as @El2aZeR 's, the difference is that he considers this a logical outcome of the rework as it was introduced as far as I understand.

Other then that, the description of your 2 matches sound fine to me.