CV Rework Discussion

[KillStealBoss]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

Thats mostly Useless Sorry.

Of course you might get the Occassional Hit on a Noob BB Sailing Braodside for 5 minutes till your Torps arrive.

But he would have been killed anyways.

Meaning you dont make any real Contribution.

 

And Yes Exactly. And this is the Problem.

DDs are not meant to Sail in Fleet.

They dont have the Weapons and Range for that kind of Fighting.

 

The 20km Torpedoes are an Extreme Exception in the First Place.

And on top they only work on Noob BBs if used like this.

 

 

I dont forget about that. It just makes no Difference at this High Range.

If you saw the CV you Torped then you were certainly not 15km away from him.

(And he was also a Noob. Given that a CV doesnt even need to consider Range or Spotting against a DD and thus can just Drive away making him near Impossible to Torpedo...)

 

 

When a Player Survived to this Point of the Game where this become Possible. He will usually have some Skill.

Dont Forget we talk about the Extremely Rare Case of Lategame. Where the DD might still have Influence on the Game.

 

And the Players Alive at this Point usually tend to not be Complete Noobs.

He doesn't have to be pro, the team usually ignores the DD is there's a CV spotting him. And if you won't kill the DD all team opens his dirty mouth at you. 

At the beginning of the game you don't have to be aggressive at all in Asashio. That's why it's in fact easy to play DD. Even if the spread becomes big, as Jingles says "of you throw enough crap stick"

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

3 hours ago, Eddy209 said:

Yes - but at that point i have to agree to others - that at this range at wich they are rather useless unless they come as a suprise for campers. At wich point I say well done asashio :) 

I killed a CV camper in my Assashio just now . Just because I stumbled upon 2. Sailed next to them for 5 minutes straight they never even looked for me. Too bad there were 2 tier 8 CV campers so they both focused me once I send my first wave of torps, which missed. You know what happens next. I dodged, smoked and did everything pretty, killed one by accident (targeted one killed the other) but they found me, I had constant fighters over me and I died soon enough. Good thing the other CV took some torps as well. Our Cleveland sank him/her eventually.

 

I must say playing Assashio has become more fun again since 0.8.5 because CVs have started to behave differently vs. DDs.

 

 

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, MacArthur92 said:

He doesn't have to be pro, the team usually ignores the DD is there's a CV spotting him. And if you won't kill the DD all team opens his dirty mouth at you. 

At the beginning of the game you don't have to be aggressive at all in Asashio. That's why it's in fact easy to play DD. Even if the spread becomes big, as Jingles says "of you throw enough crap stick"

 

HA

HAHAHAH

I wish.

I dont think I have ever even once been Scouted by CV and Enemy Team Ignored me.

 

In General when I am spotted by CV.

The Counter on my Detected Alert goes up to more Ships than I even See currently...

And most of them Time it will Rain Shells moments later.

[AndyHill]

1 hour ago, Eddy209 said:

However alot of players cant dodge well or dont know DD torpranges or the maps well enough to make a halfway decent judgement of the situation. They only see if they eat a torp im down on hp alot. And 2 to 3 torp hits can basicly make you a easy target for deletion as well. 4 torps from a DD of equal tier is basicly always a kill. 

While I don't disagree with your assessment of the average player's thinkin (or lack of), I again see a slight bias in your thinking. Looking at TX, the strongest DD torps at that tier do 23767 damage, which means that even without saturation and torp belt reduction, 4 torps aren't enough to kill a Yamato for example - and with reduction, not even close. A Z-52 won't be able to kill a full health Yamato even if it hits every torp. Sure, it will hurt a lot, but you won't be hitting that many that often. After all, torp DDs are typically the lowest damage ships in the game.

 

In my view concealment is the thing that allows people to be aggressive while not being silly, and that applies to basically every class. And if you like aggressive plays, carriers are pretty much the worst thing for the game. When I'm the Sky-God I specifically target any ship trying to make a play, regardless of the class. Quite often these will be DDs due to the somewhat layered design of the classes, which puts them in the vanguard of the fleet. However, it's difficult to imagine that the BBs I crabbed on when they tried to push or kept spotted when they were trying to disengage thought carriers were ok. At worst, red DDs turn back, at which point the red cruisers, spotted by green DDs and me, also turn back and the situation ends up with 3-0 caps for greens, all reds in a blob with torps coming in from 3 directions.

 

I would estimate that currently DDs do have the second highest impact on the game after carriers. However, that's not because they are powerful and easy to play, rather the opposite. DDs are very difficult to play with a relatively high skill floor so it's very easy to fail badly in them and they have a very specific task they're good at - taking objectives - which also happens to be crucial for the end result. The flipside of having great concealment is having to utilize their great concealment or die very quickly. 

 

I've played all ship types pretty evenly and besides carriers I don't think there's a single ship that is completely out of whack compared to the others. In total, BBs are probably the most powerful class, but even they will be in trouble if they have to force push in to caps if green DDs sucked out. There are situations where one ship has the advantage over another, which is fine, because the whole game is based on trying to get into such advantageous engagements. The important thing here is that even at a disadvantage I have the best possible chance to come out on top, because I've played ever class extensively and I know exactly what the opponent at least should be doing and what he is thinking.

[159Hunter]

10 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

We haven’t found good balance but 0.8.5 is a big step backwards and hollows out the rework so now it is only getting messi

0.8.4 was probably the closest to balance we had so far. 

Erm no. In 0.8.4 you could just dive in and blob and still roflstomp them. Not really balance there komrad.

0.8.5 is a lot better, as stated before, now CV players need to think (a bit) about target selection. If that's too much to ask: then you don't want balance.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

41 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Erm no. In 0.8.4 you could just dive in and blob and still roflstomp them. Not really balance there komrad.

0.8.5 is a lot better, as stated before, now CV players need to think (a bit) about target selection. If that's too much to ask: then you don't want balance.

I agree.  And even if 0.8.5 caused a radical increase in skill ceiling, I'm fine with that, as I want to play all classes, not just carriers. 0.8.4 was not close to balanced. Of coarse it's no surprise WG is fine with this too, seeing as they are about to release a smokeless DD line which they want to succeed.

[1MajorKoenig]

53 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Erm no. In 0.8.4 you could just dive in and blob and still roflstomp them. Not really balance there komrad.

0.8.5 is a lot better, as stated before, now CV players need to think (a bit) about target selection. If that's too much to ask: then you don't want balance.

 

Your world is simple. “I don’t have to worry and my AA shoots everything done while I am on the phone so that must be balans!”

 

What a bull- sorry. 

 

Plane losse are beyond stupidly excessive. If you are seriously calling that balans you can’t be interested in anything even close to it.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

7 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Your world is simple. “I don’t have to worry and my AA shoots everything done while I am on the phone so that must be balans!”

 

What a bull- sorry. 

 

Plane losse are beyond stupidly excessive. If you are seriously calling that balans you can’t be interested in anything even close to it.

He didn't say it was balanced, he said it is better then 0.8.4 which you consider to be closest to balanced so far. And I think you are wrong there as well. It wasn't.

[AndyHill]

misclicked

[AndyHill]

5 hours ago, AndyHill said:

Radar is an equalizing factor nobody can really do anything to play around while still being useful.

By this I actually meant "CV is..."

[KillStealBoss]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

I wish.

I dont think I have ever even once been Scouted by CV and Enemy Team Ignored me.

Well mate. You didn't see much I tell you. The biggest problem is that this happens (mostly) when I'm on CV, I spot the DD and no one cares. And then they open their wild mouths that I had to kill him. And when I argue that I did spot him and no one did anything - then I get chatban. And I didn't curse anybody , just saying that they ignored my spotting. Eh. 

[KillStealBoss]

3 hours ago, Europizza said:

I killed a CV camper in my Assashio just now . Just because I stumbled upon 2. Sailed next to them for 5 minutes straight they never even looked for me

 

[El2aZeR]

I once deliberately let an Asashio into my spotting range while running away because I couldn't be bothered to find him.

Worked like a charm, after dodging all torps with some basic application of auto pilot he opened fire, at which point he was doomed. 

[Filipin00]

Is it just me or is it less CVs in random matches lately?

I took a break from them as well since it got frustrating a bit....but I'm seeing a whole lot less other people playing them.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

39 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

I once deliberately let an Asashio into my spotting range while running away because I couldn't be bothered to find him.

Worked like a charm, after dodging all torps with some basic application of auto pilot he opened fire, at which point he was doomed. 

Lolz. Which is why I didnt fire my guns at all (StupidlyDurableHulls®) or get closer then about 7 km for 5 minutes, avoiding flightpaths of 2 carriers, waiting for my team to catch up and their support to sail off too far to help them. My team was to busy doing my job winning caps though, so no biggie. I randomly torped enemy BB's at 12-18 km range for a bit while watching the twins, pushing their BB's away from them 

Once I fired torpedoes at the CV's I was doomed though, they knew what general direction to look for. Took 1.5 carrier with me without firing my guns and left the surviving one crippled. It was quite a relaxing experience actually.

[anonym_qJ2ys6RN5PbU]

29 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

Is it just me or is it less CVs in random matches lately?

I took a break from them as well since it got frustrating a bit....but I'm seeing a whole lot less other people playing them.

There is still some masochists here and there, but in general yes, almost no one play CV, guess why?

[El2aZeR]

28 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

Is it just me or is it less CVs in random matches lately?

 

Not surprising considering CVs have reached pre-rework levels of population. I usually have to queue for several minutes to find a T10 match nowadays.

[Filipin00]

Just now, s73r01d said:

There is still some masochists here and there, but in general yes, almost no one play CV, guess why?

For me the only reason is constant uptiering. More often than not I can't be bothered to actually use brain and tactics....

[CptBarney]

21 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Not surprising considering CVs have reached pre-rework levels of population. I usually have to queue for several minutes to find a T10 match nowadays.

Tier 4 cvs are little more common from what ive seen.

 

miss hosho can kick arse if she needs to. Im curious if you have managed over 100k in tier 4 cvs yet.

[KillStealBoss]

1 hour ago, Filipin00 said:

Is it just me or is it less CVs in random matches lately?

I took a break from them as well since it got frustrating a bit....but I'm seeing a whole lot less other people playing them.

You'll see even less after 0.8.7 is live.

[KillStealBoss]

35 minutes ago, s73r01d said:

There is still some masochists here and there, but in general yes, almost no one play CV, guess why?

I still play them but not as much as in the past. Still doing ok on them. 

[Sunleader]

3 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

Well mate. You didn't see much I tell you. The biggest problem is that this happens (mostly) when I'm on CV, I spot the DD and no one cares. And then they open their wild mouths that I had to kill him. And when I argue that I did spot him and no one did anything - then I get chatban. And I didn't curse anybody , just saying that they ignored my spotting. Eh. 

 

Oh dont worry I see enough.

Just this Morning was Horrible enough for me to not bother Continuing.

First Match all 80% of the Team Drives to the Northeast Side behind the Islands while the Enemy Rolfstomps the rest and takes all Caps because the 80% of the Team up there cant fire over the Islands and ended up Surrounded.

Second Match Team makes an Equal Split. One Side all the way South and One all the way North. ALL THE WAY seriously. Enemy took all the Caps while my Team was trying to have a Long Range Artillery Duel...

Third Match my Team somehow decided to not leave the Spawn. One DD went forward but got Killed. Rest of the Team ended the Game in a Big Blob and Surrounded by the Enemy at the Spawn from which they barely moved for the entire Game... I always love when BBs Fight from behind me while I play CV....

Fourth Match whole Team Lemming Trained to the Southern Islands where they didnt even get the Capture Point thus again all Capture Points in Enemy hands and I mean the WHOLE Team.... At that Point I didnt even bother anymore. I just stayed where I was with my CV and Farmed Damage since there was no Sense in even trying anyways...

 

It took me 5 Games to get a Victory in my Haku this Morning.

And even the 5th Time the Team was complete Horse**** which left Center completely Undefended.

The only Reason we Won was because the Enemy Team was even more ******** and half of em Yoloed right into that Center thus basicly surrounding themselves by Driving in between our Team and getting mostly Deleted.

 

But Noob Teams are Part of the Game. There is Always Instances where you get them.

Especially during Holidays.

 

But you cant Balance based on the Biggest Noob Behavior.

For example.

When I played with Love and Peace yesterday. We had a Typical Newbe CV on T8. I Shut off AA and only turned it on when the Enemy Aircraft were already Spotting me.

And the CV had absolutely no Idea how to handle this. He kept Turning very Short from me. Then got Surprised as I went Undetected and then only Started the Attack Runs after he Detected me again.

Thus of course constantly Overshooting with the Rockets.

 

But you cant Balance by this. Because the moment the CV has at least a little bit of Competence. And thus after the First or Second or even Third Failure Realizes that he has to Start the Attack Run before he Spots the DD again.

This Tactic will Immediately be made useless.

When I play CV for example. Shutting off AA wont do anything for you. Because the moment I know your Rough Position I will just Start the Run based on that and then Find you during the Attack Run.

 

You wanna know why I am not Demanding Torpedoes of CVs to be Nerfed against DDs even tough I often kill DDs with Torps ?

Because any Halfwat Skilled DD will Evade them easily.

But that doesnt mean everyone does. I dont know how often I killed DDs with Torpedoes because they saw me. Smoked and Slowed down to Stop inside Smoke. Thus no longer being maneuverable enough to Evade my Torpedoes.

Not even mentioning the Instances of DDs thinking they are Cruisers and Stopping behind an Island where they cant turn properly anymore or even have to Reverse to get out.....

 

But you cant Balance on people making complete newbe mistakes.

 

 

 

 

As for Chatban. Thats why I ignore this by now.

Most People dont come to the Forums.

They dont Read Update Notes etc.

So many People dont even know what has Changed since 0.8.0

They consider the CV to still be Ridiculously Overpowered and thus Demand that you Spot a DD in the Middle of a Blob or keep Light up above 2 Minotaurs.

They somehow dont get that even a CV cant Spot a DD once he Smoked up and keep Pinging the Map and Demanding you to Scout DD which is is Sitting inside Smoke.

Or they just keep Yelling in Chat to Spot DD when your at the Opposite Side of the Map.

Meanwhile Enemy DDs are too used to Noob CVs. When You Delete them inside their Smoke because they did not even bother to Turn to the Side a bit after going Undetected and thus Sit Dead on Center of the last Smoke Cloud. They call you a Cheater and Report you.

The best is that many DDs dont even seem to Realize that Smoke also blocks their own Vision and when you Torp into Smoke with Aircraft complain about Invisible Aircraft magically knowing where they are and Torping them from nowhere.

 

Given my Nature there is no way I would not get Banned from the Game if I paid attention to this.

Since I am really bad at being Polite about it when I think someone is a **** lol.

 

[Operation_Crossroads_1]

Almost totally off topic but I found this and wanted to share it:

 

Spoiler

 

Genius: I haven't understood the problem, wrong, you haven't understood the problem.

 

Running a country near you sometime soon.

[1MajorKoenig]

10 hours ago, Filipin00 said:

Is it just me or is it less CVs in random matches lately?

I took a break from them as well since it got frustrating a bit....but I'm seeing a whole lot less other people playing them.

 

9 hours ago, s73r01d said:

There is still some masochists here and there, but in general yes, almost no one play CV, guess why?

 

9 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Not surprising considering CVs have reached pre-rework levels of population. I usually have to queue for several minutes to find a T10 match nowadays.

 

Not a gigantic surprise.

 

WG fudged around with the fundamentals of the rework and the result is a shitty little kamikaze game. 

 

It’s unfun and stupid so the decline in players isn‘t surprising. I played one game yesterday - was crap. Forced myself to do a second. Was even worse. Switched off the game afterwards.

[Filipin00]

29 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

 

 

Not a gigantic surprise.

 

WG fudged around with the fundamentals of the rework and the result is a shitty little kamikaze game. 

 

It’s unfun and stupid so the decline in players isn‘t surprising. I played one game yesterday - was crap. Forced myself to do a second. Was even worse. Switched off the game afterwards.

Yea...I feel like you can't really influence the outcome of a game as much as other classes can. Which some may find unbelievable, you can spot, yes, but like....8/10 games when I play with carriers I lose simply because I get the worse team and no matter what you do you just lose and can't do anything about it.

Risk/reward ratio is very VERY unbalanced, especially when uptiered and tier 8 carrier has to attack a bunch of 5+ tier 10 ships simply because they refuse to split up.....

I have much more success with the surface ships and feel like I can contribute a lot more than in a carrier