CV Rework Discussion

[Eddy209]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

The Real sick part of this.

Is the Implication that he thinks CVs are not Ruining DD Gameplay unless they are Guaranteed to Onehit them...

 

 

No no no - you misunderstand me completly. I neither think CVs ruin gamplay for DDs, nor do I think they should be oneshoted. The thing is if a carrier is around they can forget their ninja attacks and are basicly in a passive gamemode  wich imho is a good thing. And if a passive aproach isnt fun for the DD, tough luck i guess. BBs and to a lesser degree CA/CLs are forced into passive mode by the torpthreat every game while DDs face few CVs nowadays.And my explainations before simply stated that there is some counterplay available and some are pretty good at it too.. It might be less effective vs a CV but to say ther is none is simpy wrong.

They can deny spotting for quite a while , they can minimize damage taken, and he can cuddle his teammates. Is it a 100 percent defense? - no - i know that - nor should it be. 

 

In a CV game there shouldnt be cap rushing , no  DD vs DD fights in the cap 2 minutes into the game.I know alot of DDs do try that no matter what - but thats when they get taken out. Having a carrier in the game is a factor they have to consider , just like cover, radar etc. If the enemy DD doesnt want to be blapped early in a CV game they are forced to stay behind their team or at least within. They still can deny areas with tropspreads or bounce on ships comming to close. Sure they cant roam as free as in a game without CV. But the other ship classes do have to consider other ship classes as well. Everyone has to be on the lookout for torps, or BBs that could hit their broadsides etc. If you are behind cover  in a Cruiser but broadside to a BB you dont leave that cover. If ther is DD smoke infront of you and you are in a BB you do not go broadside to the smoke or you eat torps. The concept is the same - depending on your position there are some things you shouldnt do. Its the same with DDs.

CVs have that too. You position your hull in a way you are either not spotted or unreachable or your dead. Still you have to minimize flighttime so you want to be close if possible. And when it comes to planes you dont go whre AA is concentrated. That area is denied for the most part. Sure if absolutly neccesarry he can attack that area - but it will limit his offensive power after that by planeloss.

 

From divisioning with my clanmates DDs , I barly ever get to hear - CVs make life so hard for DDs. Quite the contrary for the most part, as I do support my guys whenever I can - so they can actually cap or find their DD counterparts and shred them to bits. The rest of the enemy usually blobs up then and makes them rather easy targets for torpedo spreads. If the enemy CV goets close to them i drop them a fighter, and i keep their flanks as clean as i can.

CVs can be your best fried in a DD because he can actually be there for you. CA/CLs and BBs often enough are not supporting their DDs in such an imidiate fashion. 

And once the enemy DDs are gone I can go for BBs so my cruisers can move. Or i attack cruisers in the flank or radar ships. It is the ultimate support class.

Making DDs the a great target for CVs comes essentialy down to the DDs importance to win games, their psychological effect on the team, and the concentration of AA on bigger ships. All things that could be changed by WG but they didnt. And I doubt they will. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CaptainOkita]

1 hour ago, MacArthur92 said:

Ehm, why? It has some powerful rockets? 

It has t4 swordfish. Even if it has alot they'll get shredded lol.

[KillStealBoss]

1 minute ago, CaptainOkita said:

It has t4 swordfish. Even if it has alot they'll get shredded lol.

I saw Notser and NoZoup on YT first impressions. And how those bombs actually are good against DDs. The drop fast, lots of them. I'll still buy it, T6 won't be expensive. For the history mostly. 

[CaptainOkita]

2 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

I saw Notser and NoZoup on YT first impressions. And how those bombs actually are good against DDs. The drop fast, lots of them. I'll still buy it, T6 won't be expensive. For the history mostly. 

Its a shame dunking on the bismark aint that impressive in this game.

[Sunleader]

10 minutes ago, Eddy209 said:

No no no - you misunderstand me completly. I neither think CVs ruin gamplay for DDs, nor do I think they should be oneshoted. The thing is if a carrier is around they can forget their ninja attacks and are basicly in a passive gamemode  wich imho is a good thing. And if a passive aproach isnt fun for the DD, tough luck i guess. BBs and to a lesser degree CA/CLs are forced into passive mode by the torpthreat every game while DDs face few CVs nowadays.And my explainations before simply stated that there is some counterplay available and some are pretty good at it too.. It might be less effective vs a CV but to say ther is none is simpy wrong.

They can deny spotting for quite a while , they can minimize damage taken, and he can cuddle his teammates. Is it a 100 percent defense? - no - i know that - nor should it be. 

 

In a CV game there shouldnt be cap rushing , no  DD vs DD fights in the cap 2 minutes into the game.I know alot of DDs do try that no matter what - but thats when they get taken out. Having a carrier in the game is a factor they have to consider , just like cover, radar etc. If the enemy DD doesnt want to be blapped early in a CV game they are forced to stay behind their team or at least within. They still can deny areas with tropspreads or bounce on ships comming to close. Sure they cant roam as free as in a game without CV. But the other ship classes do have to consider other ship classes as well. Everyone has to be on the lookout for torps, or BBs that could hit their broadsides etc. If you are behind cover  in a Cruiser but broadside to a BB you dont leave that cover. If ther is DD smoke infront of you and you are in a BB you do not go broadside to the smoke or you eat torps. The concept is the same - depending on your position there are some things you shouldnt do. Its the same with DDs.

CVs have that too. You position your hull in a way you are either not spotted or unreachable or your dead. Still you have to minimize flighttime so you want to be close if possible. And when it comes to planes you dont go whre AA is concentrated. That area is denied for the most part. Sure if absolutly neccesarry he can attack that area - but it will limit his offensive power after that by planeloss.

 

From divisioning with my clanmates DDs , I barly ever get to hear - CVs make life so hard for DDs. Quite the contrary for the most part, as I do support my guys whenever I can - so they can actually cap or find their DD counterparts and shred them to bits. The rest of the enemy usually blobs up then and makes them rather easy targets for torpedo spreads. If the enemy CV goets close to them i drop them a fighter, and i keep their flanks as clean as i can.

CVs can be your best fried in a DD because he can actually be there for you. CA/CLs and BBs often enough are not supporting their DDs in such an imidiate fashion. 

And once the enemy DDs are gone I can go for BBs so my cruisers can move. Or i attack cruisers in the flank or radar ships. It is the ultimate support class.

Making DDs the a great target for CVs comes essentialy down to the DDs importance to win games, their psychological effect on the team, and the concentration of AA on bigger ships. All things that could be changed by WG but they didnt. And I doubt they will.

 

 

1.

Mate no Offense.

But DDs are supposed to be the most Aggressive Class in the Game.

Moreover they cant do anything unless they are Aggressive. Because their Weapons are Short Ranged and they dont have the HP for a Dragged out Artillery Duel at Range.

 

What your Demanding could as well be Removing DDs from the Game.

In case you didnt know this. But the whole Idea of the Rework was to make this Game LESS PASSIVE lol....

 

2.

Sorry but there is no Counterplay against CVs.

Currently the best Counterplay a DD has against a CV. Is to Turn off AA and Hope the CV is a Noob who doesnt know how to Drop Fighters or how to Attack on an Estimated Position without Seeing the Target.

 

Hiding in the Rear and being Useless is not Counterplay. Its being useless and hiding in the Rear :)

 

3.

Except Mate. That is a DDs Job.

DDs are Balanced around their Ability to Capture Points.

Thats why they are Generally so Weak that their Average Damage is about Half that of BBs/CVs and why they have so little HP that they can easily be Killed within Seconds.

 

If you say that this should not work in Battles with CVs. Then what your Saying is that DDs should SUCK whenever a CV is Present :)

 

4.

Torpedo Spread especially on Range does not Deny an Area.

If you know its there. Its easy to Evade. If you dont know its there it wont work as Area Denial.

 

5.

Except Mate. That not going Broadside to BB or Smoke. Does not Prevent you from Doing anything in that Game.

See Mate. If there is a DD or BB Blocking an Area. Your Target is to Kill him and Clear that Area.

If a CV is Focusing you. You cannot do that. You cannot Harm that CV and your only way of Preventing Attacks Hitting you is to Run away to the Rear and Hide.

At which point you are useless to the Team.

 

See Mate. Just in a Game Today I had this.

An Asashio (poor little guy) tried to Flank us. And I focused him. So he Ran away.

Now him Running away of course meant he is harder for me to Kill. Because I need to long to reach him and waste time.

But I dont need to do that anyways. Because at this Point he is Useless. He is Running to a Corner already under his Teams Control meaning that he is as useful to his Team as if he was Dead.

And I can just Ignore him until he comes back.

 

6.

Mate no Offense.

But you as a CV can do that.

Because YOU HAVE UNLIMITED RANGE WITH YOUR PLANES......

You can Position yourself wherever you want.

Because unlike a DD you are not Useless the moment your more than 12km away from the Enemy.

 

7.

Well Mate.

Thats is Fine.

I do the same as CV when my Friends Play DD.

But you see. Not everyone has a CV Friend which he can always take along to Protect them from Enemy CVs lol

And Generally CVs can only do this kind of thing if the DDs are between him and the Enemy.

So most DDs will not be Protected by Fighters constantly :)

And guess what. People without a Division want to Play this Game as well :)

 

How much Counterplay do the Enemy DDs have do you think ?

When you Deny them Concealment and your DDs are there to Exploit it ? :)

How much Chance do they have to Win this Combination ? :)

 

Do you Think the Game is Fun for the DDs not Supported by a CV like your Friends ? :)

 

 

 

 

 

[AndyHill]

32 minutes ago, Eddy209 said:

BBs and to a lesser degree CA/CLs are forced into passive mode by the torpthreat every game while DDs face few CVs nowadays.

You seem like a reasonable person to discuss with, so I'll bite. Looking at your stats and your comments on DD play, I think you would do yourself a service if you played more DDs. Much more. If you think torp soup is a big problem, you need to get into the DD's head and learn where it's probably coming from and what the DD player is thinking. On average, DDs do the least amount of damage per match, so that soup really isn't that effective most of the time.

37 minutes ago, Eddy209 said:

In a CV game there shouldnt be cap rushing , no  DD vs DD fights in the cap 2 minutes into the game.I know alot of DDs do try that no matter what - but thats when they get taken out. Having a carrier in the game is a factor they have to consider , just like cover, radar etc. If the enemy DD doesnt want to be blapped early in a CV game they are forced to stay behind their team or at least within.

No, DDs can not huddle behind teammates early in the game. Because that simply makes them useless - all they achieve is a few more moments of useless life, since they will eventuall get slaughtered after there's no more team to hide behind. In reality DDs still have to be aggressive and push or be useless. When I'm in a carrier, I always first go for the spots where aggressive enemies should be to be useful. If I find them, I kill them and I win. If I don't find them they're not useful and I win. Game features that punish you for playing correctly are usually not very good design.

42 minutes ago, Eddy209 said:

Having a carrier in the game is a factor they have to consider , just like cover, radar etc.

The major difference between radar and CV is that radars (when they're mostly even on both teams) make the environment more dangerous and challenging for everyone and thus provide opportunities for good players to outplay their opponents by better spotting, radar baiting and kiting around danger zones to find good shots. Radar is an equalizing factor nobody can really do anything to play around while still being useful. You're aither screwed or you're not depending on what the carrier does, not because of your own actions. And that's not really just a DD thing either.

[CptBarney]

Sunleader:

 

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

Everyone else:

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

[Eddy209]

4 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

Mate no Offense.

But DDs are supposed to be the most Aggressive Class in the Game.

Moreover they cant do anything unless they are Aggressive. Because their Weapons are Short Ranged and they dont have the HP for a Dragged out Artillery Duel at Range.

 

What your Demanding could as well be Removing DDs from the Game.

In case you didnt know this. But the whole Idea of the Rework was to make this Game LESS PASSIVE lol....

 

2.

Sorry but there is no Counterplay against CVs.

Currently the best Counterplay a DD has against a CV. Is to Turn off AA and Hope the CV is a Noob who doesnt know how to Drop Fighters or how to Attack on an Estimated Position without Seeing the Target.

 

Hiding in the Rear and being Useless is not Counterplay. Its being useless and hiding in the Rear :)

 

3.

Except Mate. That is a DDs Job.

DDs are Balanced around their Ability to Capture Points.

Thats why they are Generally so Weak that their Average Damage is about Half that of BBs/CVs and why they have so little HP that they can easily be Killed within Seconds.

 

If you say that this should not work in Battles with CVs. Then what your Saying is that DDs should SUCK whenever a CV is Present :)

 

4.

Torpedo Spread especially on Range does not Deny an Area.

If you know its there. Its easy to Evade. If you dont know its there it wont work as Area Denial.

 

5.

Except Mate. That not going Broadside to BB or Smoke. Does not Prevent you from Doing anything in that Game.

See Mate. If there is a DD or BB Blocking an Area. Your Target is to Kill him and Clear that Area.

If a CV is Focusing you. You cannot do that. You cannot Harm that CV and your only way of Preventing Attacks Hitting you is to Run away to the Rear and Hide.

At which point you are useless to the Team.

 

See Mate. Just in a Game Today I had this.

An Asashio (poor little guy) tried to Flank us. And I focused him. So he Ran away.

Now him Running away of course meant he is harder for me to Kill. Because I need to long to reach him and waste time.

But I dont need to do that anyways. Because at this Point he is Useless. He is Running to a Corner already under his Teams Control meaning that he is as useful to his Team as if he was Dead.

And I can just Ignore him until he comes back.

 

6.

Mate no Offense.

But you as a CV can do that.

Because YOU HAVE UNLIMITED RANGE WITH YOUR PLANES......

You can Position yourself wherever you want.

Because unlike a DD you are not Useless the moment your more than 12km away from the Enemy.

 

7.

Well Mate.

Thats is Fine.

I do the same as CV when my Friends Play DD.

But you see. Not everyone has a CV Friend which he can always take along to Protect them from Enemy CVs lol

And Generally CVs can only do this kind of thing if the DDs are between him and the Enemy.

So most DDs will not be Protected by Fighters constantly :)

And guess what. People without a Division want to Play this Game as well :)

 

How much Counterplay do the Enemy DDs have do you think ?

When you Deny them Concealment and your DDs are there to Exploit it ? :)

How much Chance do they have to Win this Combination ? :)

 

Do you Think the Game is Fun for the DDs not Supported by a CV like your Friends ? :)

 

 

 

 

 

1. true - but he still can be lategame when plane reserves are low. And agressiveness is still possible against other DDs if the enemy DD goes for the enemy DD. In this case he shouldnt. But he can - take him out and deny spotting while beeing close to his team.

 

2. There is - staying close with your team. If you consider it being usless to bounce people who get to close, or the enemy DD that gets into range - spot torps comming for your team, or in the worst case being a CV target for some minutes and therefor keep the pressure from them - then yes the DD can be useless

 

3. They still can - but they it might cost them their hp. Not the DDs fault but the other ships not pushing up. At least your CV could help you - but so could others. Pushing with multiple ships into a cap is a good way to neuter Cvs influence on a cap as he cant stopp it. Too much AA at that point and not enough alpha to do it . But people rarely do that because there might be torps comming from the other side. Works basicly only when the Enemy DD is dead.

 

4. you dont have to be at range to torp spread. take an island close to cap with a cruiserbudy sitting next to it. torp from there and reposition.

   You might not hit alot that way but the enemy will not blunder into that spot because you could launch torps. Therefor it keeps them back.  If they do and go into your torps its on them

 

5.So the asashio wasnt in AA range of his team or  too far to reatreat in a ship thats the least usefull for his team because he limited his targets to maybe 4 or 5 ships per team (BB and CV). He took a situational ship and the situation didnt arise. Bad luck i guess. Specific example - lets say it was a kagero. It can attack all targets and doesnt have to flank half of the map to do something. This one shouldnt get into that situation in the first place.

 

6.True to a point but flighttime limits action time as well. If im too far away i might not be able to help. And there are plenty of maps where teams face each other at 10 km or less. Cant be that hard to cover 3 to 4 km to close to detection range within a window when the cv attacks somewhere else.  And 3-4 km is still within dfaa or long range flak - if you are found there rereat to your team. so planes have to follow you into their AA at least on the second attack runf if they even manage that. And the AA of multiple ships can be consequential for th CV. Either he cant attack more than once, cant attack at all or looses planes of the chosen type having less of them to try again for a while - most likly forcing him to focus somewhere else.

 

7. True to a point again. Not every CV supports their DD friends. But thats on the individual not on the ship. And if the Enemy in a lone ship doesnt counter a 2 or 3 man division id say something is right here. Fun - maybe not - but its no fun to be stealthtorped either. Or smoke he rained on. Or to findig a just spotted ship disapearing into smoke 5 km in front of you with no way back.  Or having your push ruined becasue half your flank turns around because they might eat a torp. It realy goes both ways. DDs spoil the fun of others to so the feeling is mutual i guess.

 

You see - Im not the one who wants the game to be unfun for the player. But WG gave the CVs the tools it gave them. I try to help my team with what i got. Your concerns are valid - but I doubt neither my position or your position on the matter will change alot.

I honestly think that  CVs were to some extend meant by the devs to make DDs less attractive in the game. The softcap of 4 is a clear indicator that they went overboard. Not to mention the option to sell high AA DDs as a solution. 

[KillStealBoss]

41 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

But DDs are supposed to be the most Aggressive Class in the Game.

 

[Eddy209]

17 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

You seem like a reasonable person to discuss with, so I'll bite. Looking at your stats and your comments on DD play, I think you would do yourself a service if you played more DDs. Much more. If you think torp soup is a big problem, you need to get into the DD's head and learn where it's probably coming from and what the DD player is thinking. On average, DDs do the least amount of damage per match, so that soup really isn't that effective most of the time.

No, DDs can not huddle behind teammates early in the game. Because that simply makes them useless - all they achieve is a few more moments of useless life, since they will eventuall get slaughtered after there's no more team to hide behind. In reality DDs still have to be aggressive and push or be useless. When I'm in a carrier, I always first go for the spots where aggressive enemies should be to be useful. If I find them, I kill them and I win. If I don't find them they're not useful and I win. Game features that punish you for playing correctly are usually not very good design.

The major difference between radar and CV is that radars (when they're mostly even on both teams) make the environment more dangerous and challenging for everyone and thus provide opportunities for good players to outplay their opponents by better spotting, radar baiting and kiting around danger zones to find good shots. Radar is an equalizing factor nobody can really do anything to play around while still being useful. You're aither screwed or you're not depending on what the carrier does, not because of your own actions. And that's not really just a DD thing either.

I will play more DDs in the future. But please consider - im not talking about the effectiveness of the torps themselfs in doing damage - I know that lots of them miss and that DD damage is skewed to a degree by having gunboats as well wich mainly fight other DDs wich have low healthpools and therefor generate lower damage. 

Its the threat that is enough to make whole flanks crumble. Its the big fear of what could happen , not what is realistic to happen. 

[KillStealBoss]

11 minutes ago, Eddy209 said:

doesnt have to flank half of the map to do something

Asashio has 20km 67knt torps . Doesn't need to get into position to torp like 10km torp Kagero . It be even behind cruisers

[Eddy209]

Just now, MacArthur92 said:

Asashio has 20km 67knt torps . Doesn't need to get into position to torp like 10km torp Kagero . It be even behind cruisers

Yes - but at that point i have to agree to others - that at this range at wich they are rather useless unless they come as a suprise for campers. At wich point I say well done asashio :) 

[AndyHill]

And that's exactly why you should play DD. The threat is probably nowhere near as serious and not as difficult to play around as you might think. Also for some reason the gunboats (khaba, haru) do way more damage than hybrids and torp boats (except for Yummy Yammy, which can hit hydroless cruisers very effectively). Torpedo slingers also have the lowest win rate (except for Yummy Yammy) with the high gunpower / utility DDs taking the top spots.

[KillStealBoss]

Just now, Eddy209 said:

Yes - but at that point i have to agree to others - that at this range at wich they are rather useless unless they come as a suprise for campers. At wich point I say well done asashio :) 

In most cases 16 torps will make some hits . 

And then you get 120-150k dmg 

[KillStealBoss]

58 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

An Asashio (poor little guy) tried to Flank us. And I focused him. So he Ran away.

Now him Running away of course meant he is harder for me to Kill. Because I need to long to reach him and waste time.

But I dont need to do that anyways. Because at this Point he is Useless. He is Running to a Corner already under his Teams Control meaning that he is as useful to his Team as if he was Dead.

And I can just Ignore him until he comes back.

This is not how you play Asashio when there's CV. I do play like this if I know that I can do it. CV in game denies me to do this stuff. You have to play more careful closer to your team. Solo action with CV in game is like Lotto. It's rarely successful. 

[KillStealBoss]

40 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

No, DDs can not huddle behind teammates early in the game.

They have to be close to the team not in the back! They should still spot but not to speed boost and get rekt. With CV the DD has to be more patient.

[AndyHill]

Depends on the level of patience. In any game, DDs still have to push and to be aggressive to be useful. You might get your butt handed to you or you might not, depending entirely on what the red CV does, but being passive is very likely to lose the game regardless, if the enemy DD manages to do more.

[Sunleader]

7 minutes ago, Eddy209 said:

1. true - but he still can be lategame when plane reserves are low. And agressiveness is still possible against other DDs if the enemy DD goes for the enemy DD. In this case he shouldnt. But he can - take him out and deny spotting while beeing close to his team.

 

2. There is - staying close with your team. If you consider it being usless to bounce people who get to close, or the enemy DD that gets into range - spot torps comming for your team, or in the worst case being a CV target for some minutes and therefor keep the pressure from them - then yes the DD can be useless

 

3. They still can - but they it might cost them their hp. Not the DDs fault but the other ships not pushing up. At least your CV could help you - but so could others. Pushing with multiple ships into a cap is a good way to neuter Cvs influence on a cap as he cant stopp it. Too much AA at that point and not enough alpha to do it . But people rarely do that because there might be torps comming from the other side. Works basicly only when the Enemy DD is dead.

 

4. you dont have to be at range to torp spread. take an island close to cap with a cruiserbudy sitting next to it. torp from there and reposition.

   You might not hit alot that way but the enemy will not blunder into that spot because you could launch torps. Therefor it keeps them back.  If they do and go into your torps its on them

 

5.So the asashio wasnt in AA range of his team or  too far to reatreat in a ship thats the least usefull for his team because he limited his targets to maybe 4 or 5 ships per team (BB and CV). He took a situational ship and the situation didnt arise. Bad luck i guess. Specific example - lets say it was a kagero. It can attack all targets and doesnt have to flank half of the map to do something. This one shouldnt get into that situation in the first place.

 

6.True to a point but flighttime limits action time as well. If im too far away i might not be able to help. And there are plenty of maps where teams face each other at 10 km or less. Cant be that hard to cover 3 to 4 km to close to detection range within a window when the cv attacks somewhere else.  And 3-4 km is still within dfaa or long range flak - if you are found there rereat to your team. so planes have to follow you into their AA at least on the second attack runf if they even manage that. And the AA of multiple ships can be consequential for th CV. Either he cant attack more than once, cant attack at all or looses planes of the chosen type having less of them to try again for a while - most likly forcing him to focus somewhere else.

 

7. True to a point again. Not every CV supports their DD friends. But thats on the individual not on the ship. And if the Enemy in a lone ship doesnt counter a 2 or 3 man division id say something is right here. Fun - maybe not - but its no fun to be stealthtorped either. Or smoke he rained on. Or to findig a just spotted ship disapearing into smoke 5 km in front of you with no way back.  Or having your push ruined becasue half your flank turns around because they might eat a torp. It realy goes both ways. DDs spoil the fun of others to so the feeling is mutual i guess.

 

You see - Im not the one who wants the game to be unfun for the player. But WG gave the CVs the tools it gave them. I try to help my team with what i got. Your concerns are valid - but I doubt neither my position or your position on the matter will change alot.

I honestly think that  CVs were to some extend meant by the devs to make DDs less attractive in the game. The softcap of 4 is a clear indicator that they went overboard. Not to mention the option to sell high AA DDs as a solution. 

 

1.

Aside from LateGame usually being after the Game has been Decided and thus meaning that the DD Spend his entire Game useless.

Lategame is Horror for a DD when CVs are Involved.

Because in Lategame the only thing keeping a DD alive is to stay Undetected.

As soon as he gets Detected he is useless. Because his Enemy can Freely Maneuver and Attack him. He has no way to Limit the Enemy from getting him or at which he can Torp.

The Enemy can freely evade his Torps and Shoot at him because there is little fear of showing Broadside to anyone.

And Guess what a CV can do even if he got barely any Planes Left.....

 

2.

An Enemy DD Coming Close enough for you to do Anything about is Dead.

Even more so when a CV is in the Game.

And Mate Staying Close to your Team means your not in Range of anyone and could just as well be AFK.

At best your a Meatshield taking away some fire from the others because People Shoot at you instead.

 

3.

No they Cant.

Because if they are Spotted they lose not just HP. They are usually Dead.

I will make this Clear Mate.

A CV being Present in the Game.

Nerfs an DD by about 40-50%

 

And in case you didnt know that.

In a Game with Random Teams.

Relying on Teammates NEVER works.

Moreover. Pushing at the Start of a Battle with Several Ships (also called Yoloing) Usually Ends in a Tremendously Embarassing Defeat where most of you Team Dies while doing next to nothing to the Enemy.

 

Which means. We are back to DDs cant do anything in this Game.

 

4.

Wont work.

Did you forget ?

CV is there and if the DD Leaves Cover of his Fleet he is Dead.

If you demand the DD to go Forward and sit there alone behind an island close to the Enemy instead of his own Team. We are back to the DD being Spotted and Killed by the CV.

Or are you saying that the whole Team should sit behind an Island ? :)

In that case the DD no longer has any Area Denial because at this point the Team Blocks that area anyways.

 

5.

Mate no Offense. But you keep switching the CV off here.

Did you Froget ?

Kagero has max Range of 10km for its Torps.

Can you Explain to me how the Kagero is Supposed to stay in AA Range of its Fleet and actually do anything to Enemy Ships ? :)

Because normally Ships tend to Die faster than the Kagero can Torp when they get this Close.

Needless to say. That by the time the Battle moves that close. Its usually already long Decided meaning the DD is entirely useless to the Team.

 

See Mate. This is already the case above.

You somehow seem to fail to make that Connection.

But we already Agreed that DDs cant really Play Aggressive when CVs are around.

Thing is. Your Suggestions for the DD to Play Better all Require Aggressive Gameplay.

The things you Suggest do not work when a CV is there.

 

A DD is not a CV. He cannot Attack Targets all over the Map.

If he Stay inside his Teams AA Range. Then he cant Attack anything because HE IS NOT WITHIN RANGE.

 

6.

Mate no Offense. But I think I know how to Play a CV.

And Sorry but No. 

If you get Spotted as CV before the Game is Decided. Then you simply messed up Epic.

Because you Yoloed or went much closer to the Enemy then you ever Should under any Circumstances.

As a CV the only Time you should ever be Spotted by the Enemy. Is after your Team has Lost.

Or after you are Winning so Clearly that it doesnt matter anymore.

Otherwise you did something extremely wrong.

 

7.

No its not on the Individual.

Its a Random Team Game. So Balance has to work without it being Dependent on Playing in Divisions.

If you cant Play a DD unless you Division up with a CV. Then the Game Balance is Broken and needs to be Fixed :)

 

Imagine that your CV was Reduced to the HP of a DD and dont get Automatic Fighters and Good AA.

Sure. You can still Play if you Division up with 2 AA Cruiser Friends which keep the Enemy CV from just Sniping you.

But the thing is. In General what would happen would be that the CV would First Kill the Enemy CV to give his Team a Tremendous Advantage :)

 

Would not be very Fun Right.

 

 

 

Well Mate.

I have Trouble Believing that.

Because Obviously your Opinion is that DDs not being Allowed to have Fun in this Game unless they got a CV in the Division. Is a Perfectly Fine Situation.

 

 

30 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

 

 

Yep Absolutely Sure.

Long Range Torps are Fun but mostly Useless unless Fired from around 10km. 

Because by the time they arrive they have Spreaded so far that they just stop mattering for most Part.

 

[KillStealBoss]

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

Yep Absolutely Sure.

Long Range Torps are Fun but mostly Useless unless Fired from around 10km. 

Because by the time they arrive they have Spreaded so far that they just stop mattering for most Part.

You forget it's 16 torp spread. They always hit something. Even a CV I did hit few times, got him low hp, told my CV about that to kill him off 

[KillStealBoss]

5 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

He has no way to Limit the Enemy from getting him or at which he can Torp.

The Enemy can freely evade his Torps and Shoot at him because there is little fear of showing Broadside to anyone

You're too optimistic having such team. This happens once in 8-10 battles. Especially in this vacation time lol. How many times I had GK running hydro getting torped from 7-8km from Z-52 cause he is fixated to kill the 15km away cruiser. Tbh the level of such gameplay is becoming lower and lower. You expect your team to do as you said. But usually? They don't care. Cause you're a CV and they think "ah let the CV kill the DD, better to farm dmg" but when you won't kill the DD in time and he torped tor allies, they all say "f**k noob CV" 

[Sunleader]

25 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

This is not how you play Asashio when there's CV. I do play like this if I know that I can do it. CV in game denies me to do this stuff. You have to play more careful closer to your team. Solo action with CV in game is like Lotto. It's rarely successful. 

 

Thats mostly Useless Sorry.

Of course you might get the Occassional Hit on a Noob BB Sailing Braodside for 5 minutes till your Torps arrive.

But he would have been killed anyways.

Meaning you dont make any real Contribution.

 

And Yes Exactly. And this is the Problem.

DDs are not meant to Sail in Fleet.

They dont have the Weapons and Range for that kind of Fighting.

 

The 20km Torpedoes are an Extreme Exception in the First Place.

And on top they only work on Noob BBs if used like this.

 

9 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

You forget it's 16 torp spread. They always hit something. Even a CV I did hit few times, got him low hp, told my CV about that to kill him off 

 

I dont forget about that. It just makes no Difference at this High Range.

If you saw the CV you Torped then you were certainly not 15km away from him.

(And he was also a Noob. Given that a CV doesnt even need to consider Range or Spotting against a DD and thus can just Drive away making him near Impossible to Torpedo...)

 

3 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

You're too optimistic having such team. This happens once in 8-10 battles. Especially in this vacation time lol. How many times I had GK running hydro getting torped from 7-8km from Z-52 cause he is fixated to kill the 15km away cruiser. Tbh the level of such gameplay is becoming lower and lower. You expect your team to do as you said. But usually? They don't care. Cause you're a CV and they think "ah let the CV kill the DD, better to farm dmg" but when you won't kill the DD in time and he torped tor allies, they all say "f**k noob CV" 

 

When a Player Survived to this Point of the Game where this become Possible. He will usually have some Skill.

Dont Forget we talk about the Extremely Rare Case of Lategame. Where the DD might still have Influence on the Game.

 

And the Players Alive at this Point usually tend to not be Complete Noobs.

[CaptainOkita]

1 hour ago, CptBarney said:

Sunleader:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Writing gigantic walls of text  riddled with feelings and random snippets is the opposite of intellectual.

[Eddy209]

1 hour ago, AndyHill said:

And that's exactly why you should play DD. The threat is probably nowhere near as serious and not as difficult to play around as you might think. Also for some reason the gunboats (khaba, haru) do way more damage than hybrids and torp boats (except for Yummy Yammy, which can hit hydroless cruisers very effectively). Torpedo slingers also have the lowest win rate (except for Yummy Yammy) with the high gunpower / utility DDs taking the top spots.

I dont play DDs often - i admit that much. But the basics are the same for surface ships. But admitedly im playing the game often but not realy in a tryhard mode. The slow gampace of the game allow me to relax while playing. I even drink my tea and smoke a cigar while playing it. I find DDs rather twitchy and requiring good reflexes wich i lack to some extend. Wich is a shame imho as i have a soft spot for destroyers when it comes to real life destroyers .Funnyly enough it was the prospect of playing DDs wich brought me to WOWS. But im not good at them at the best of times and I want my team to win - so in the rare case I play DDs its either alone, or in operations or in coop.Cruisers i do okayish in - not a detriment to the team, but also not good enough to carry alot of games .

But   I do play with rather competent DD players most of the times. Yes in a Division. And we practice together alot , myself more to help them as they take that game far more serious than me. Its just what they tell me does not match with what is written in this topic. 

You see - im a BB main for the aforementioned reasons and im rather used to dodge torps alot, hell im quite the DD hunter even in BBs as i mostly have to hunt them down myself or with my div mates because alot of time nobody else does. I know it can be played around and i know how to wasd , hell i die to torps very seldomly because i put work into my evasion skills. Sure once in a hundred games  i get a deleted by a  torp spread that came from an unsuspected direction or becaue i messed up. Kudos to that DD player. 

However alot of players cant dodge well or dont know DD torpranges or the maps well enough to make a halfway decent judgement of the situation. They only see if they eat a torp im down on hp alot. And 2 to 3 torp hits can basicly make you a easy target for deletion as well. 4 torps from a DD of equal tier is basicly always a kill. 

People only know torps hurt - let someone else go first. Its that psychological influece torp boats have. And if you push up , take out 2 or even 3 targets and get snatched by the DD that sits in smoke nearby that no one spotted before its not fun either. Yes he did alot right at that point but for the most part i did too. If a DD comes aroud the corner of a island at 5 km there is not much counterplay either - They are the ultimate cohesion and push spoilers.

 

Now sure you can say thats their job but i consider a stealth class to be a bad gamedesign decision, as you might consider cvs in theri current form a bad design decision. As long as the game punishes the one who initiates a good push there wont be much pushing. The BBs sit in the back , the cruisers hide themselfs as good as they can from the BB salvos wich leaves DDs deciding the game. And limiting their influence is what a carrier does well. Should it be that way is another question as other ships could do it too - its just with the camping meta and all the mechanics that benefit it (bow camping instead of angeling , fast reversing, radar, high shell arcs smok camping, being able to sit right next to islands even for BBs etc)in the game there is little to break it up other than carriers. 

Yes CVs limit what a DD can do greatly, but so does a DD to other ships. And no im not implying its great design that DDs  suck in the few games they face a carrier just because they face them not very often. But DDs can make the game suck for other surface ships every game. So maybe in a twisted squared was I admit im okay with that. 

 

Myself and others suggested alot of things in this topic that could work to aliviate that to some extend. But some stuff would change the meta and that seems to be a big no no for those who mastered it. 

I for one would love to see mechanics that punish team camping and static gameplay in general , rewards moving and shooting , high risk high rewards king of thing. But other that the current mechanics its also the limited gamemods and the maps that foster the meta we have.

[Eddy209]

4 minutes ago, CaptainOkita said:

Writing gigantic walls of text  riddled with feelings and random snippets is the opposite of intellectual.

Maybe, but since it is meant as a discussion, its pretty natural that we express opinions, and since those depend to quite to a degree on the expiriences and observations we have within the game (wich seem to differ alot sometimes)- sure we feel a certain way about it. Sometimes it matches with the statistics we can see or we interpret them in that way. Either way - its always skewed to a degree.

As long as it stays somewhat civil there is nothing wrong with that.

For a real scientific aproach you would need to know all the things factoring in and the things wg will add to the game and the effects those will have. Both things are either hard to come by or dont always match what could be in the game and what the players make of it.

 

I for one might not agree with some posts here, but its fun to react to them, and seeing a reply that might change my opinion of it or make me understandf it in a broader sense, or reinforce my own.  

Its not that out posting here will change much. I guess WG has their own plans and until now we all stayed here through many ups and downs. 

Im not in a doom and gloom mood to be honest. 

At least I dont think the game is  as bad as it was in its worst days.

 

 

[QQQWWWXXX1]

Pls delete cvs
The cvs from eating nerf are unplayable.

Pls delete At least let's get our money back.

Cvs are very costly and AA very strong.

I'm a CV player, WG even made me hate CVs.