CV Rework Discussion

[Filipin00]

40 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

In reality CVs  and moan about pretty much everything.

I really don't have any problems with CV gameplay in the current state except for the uptiering(but hey, what else is new, all classes suffer from this).

Everything else regarding CVs is balanced imo, saying as someone playing (almost) all classes.

 

The only reason I may have more CV battles than in any other class is because I have 2 premium CVs for making credits

And since I do make a lot of credits with them, and heck, even with non-premium CVs counting prem account, economic flags, I really can't complain all that much.

It's the same thing going on with CVs as with any other class, situational awareness as in knowing where you are needed, leaving fighters, calculating damage and battle impact with plain losses etc.......there is no domination of the CVs at least not when I play them, only skill....

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

With most I meant most justified. Pointless = not justified (well or without chance of success but hey)

 

Which ofc is purely objective as you have proven already. /s

[KillStealBoss]

6 hours ago, CaptainOkita said:

So dd's shouldn't have counters? 

If you know how to counter those no AA DDs. Just put a fighter above them. Ez. 

If make this against a shima that has much better AA than Asashio then those fighters were going soon down. But you don't need to do that cause shima has 2.4 air detection (correct me if I'm wrong) a not - as I suggest - 1.8km of Asashio.

[KillStealBoss]

4 hours ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

For all this talk of CV haters and DD mafia it sounds to me like you hate all DD players and want them removed from the game.

He had too much trauma because of Asashio 

[Eddy209]

20 hours ago, MacArthur92 said:

Because the no AA DD can't protect itself. The only way is small air detection. 

Imho thats only ttrue to a point. He can smoke up and therefore deny being spotted. He can stick close to islands for cover against rockets at least from one side, preferably in the AA range of a cruisers. And of cause - hate to feed the meme - dodge. A good DD captain can relativly easy avoid Torpplanes, Bombplanes are quite rng now and are to some extend dodgeble. Rockets not to such an extend but still - the DD can minimize damage. And by far not guarantied that a squad of rocketplanes takes the DD out in one go - so at least the DD has some time to reposition. And if he has his AA off and does not go the predictable routes - he is already not so easy to find + often enough the min distance to turn around rocketplanes is enough to let him become undetected. If he managed to turn around he can mitigate quite a bit of damage by making the planes overshoot.

If he is caught in open water , without AA cover , without smokes - Im sorry but he is as out of position in this fight, as a BB would be when pushing between 2 DD smokes, or a cruiser reversing bradside to a BB. Then only RNG should be able to help him.

So no - if he is in such a position he should be easily punished. He can do the ninja gameplay when no carrier is around.

 

And to be quite honest - As much as i loke making DDs explode - I often go for them to protect my team from them or at least the caps. I like winning. There are games where I`d rather go for meatier targets , like german or Russian BBs - or the flaanking cruiser that set my div buddy on fire for the 3rd time. 

My expirience clearly say - leave the DDs alon and your team pays the prize. Plus making the other ships harder to attack only reinforced the hunt for DDs.

[Operation_Crossroads_1]

18 minutes ago, Eddy209 said:

He can stick close to islands for cover against rockets at least from one side,

 

Are you for real?

[CaptainOkita]

1 hour ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

 

Are you for real?

Yes. It [edited] with the cv player's reticle and makes hitting a mental guess game. That's assuming you knew there was a cloaked dd to begin with.

[159Hunter]

On 7/16/2019 at 8:27 PM, 1MajorKoenig said:

We are going in circles and I am not in the mood to repeat everything so I keep it short & sweet: no

Well, just keep dreaming the dream that CVs were balanced and that the need for 1 player per team to have fun in an unbalanced, braindeath ship, outweights the fun of all other players.

On 7/16/2019 at 8:23 PM, B051LjKo said:

Can you please describe how adrenaline rush is useful after 8.5? What other ''ton of capt skills'' we can use, and who will pay for the respec?

Looks like El2azer beat me to it. I for one never used that skill, other skills are more useful.

As for paying the respec: you pay it / wait for another CB season. I personally haven't respecced CVs yet (then again, I also didn't pick the subpar skill that is AR).

[KillStealBoss]

11 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Well, just keep dreaming the dream that CVs were balanced and that the need for 1 player per team to have fun in an unbalanced, braindeath ship, outweights the fun of all other players.

 

[El2aZeR]

4 hours ago, Eddy209 said:

He can smoke up and therefore deny being spotted.

 

Leave a fighter, engage other targets. DD is stuck with no options until fighter is dealt with.

After fighter dies check up on the smoke. If the DD hasn't left he's staying in there and most likely useless. If he shoots target the tracers. If he has left he now has a squad on his tail with no more smoke. Win-win.

Also considering an attack can occur within the first 2 minutes of the match that's a guaranteed smoke wasted and on cd in the opening stages of a match. Something like this can easily get a DD killed.

 

4 hours ago, Eddy209 said:

preferably in the AA range of a cruisers

 

Cruiser AA is only effective within mid-range. Extremely few DDs can operate that far back which inherently makes them worthless.

 

4 hours ago, Eddy209 said:

dodge

 

A few TBs can still effectively cross drop. That's not dodgeable as @SexyCroat had to find out some time ago in his target barge I mean, AA DD. 

Bombs are inherently RNG even if there are ways to increase hit chance. As such attempting to dodge or not, you can still get hit.

Majority of rockets cannot be effectively evaded due to vertical spread pattern. Angle in or out and you receive hits due to the vertical spread, try to broadside and you get hit due to attack angle. And then there's Enterprise which just doesn't give a . There are no ways to minimize damage from such an attack.

 

4 hours ago, Eddy209 said:

And if he has his AA off and does not go the predictable routes - he is already not so easy to find + often enough the min distance to turn around rocketplanes is enough to let him become undetected. If he managed to turn around he can mitigate quite a bit of damage by making the planes overshoot.

 

This is completely untrue. Slight mouse adjustments which do not affect accuracy are enough for any kind of course adjustment a DD makes in the short time it'll be unspotted if you just predict the course slightly. And if they turn while still spotted the element of surprise is lost regardless, meaning the CV can easily adjust in time.

Also concealment can just be cheesed via fighter if necessary.

 

2 hours ago, CaptainOkita said:

Yes. It [edited] with the cv player's reticle and makes hitting a mental guess game. That's assuming you knew there was a cloaked dd to begin with.

 

Also prevents AA from hitting the squad in question, meaning all the CV needs to do is fly over the island then immediately reengage. An island represents a reset of the engagement and nothing more.

And very few DDs can make use of island cover, meaning that even if there is sufficient AA to block you on the other side, you've effectively rendered that DD worthless.

 

Counterplay options to CVs only exist if they don't know what they're doing.

[Sunleader]

56 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Well, just keep dreaming the dream that CVs were balanced and that the need for 1 player per team to have fun in an unbalanced, braindeath ship, outweights the fun of all other players.

Looks like El2azer beat me to it. I for one never used that skill, other skills are more useful.

As for paying the respec: you pay it / wait for another CB season. I personally haven't respecced CVs yet (then again, I also didn't pick the subpar skill that is AR).

 

If anyone really needs Evidence that CVs are still nowhere close to being Balanced.

He just has to Check out all the New Ships including the Premium Ships.

Because all of them have something in Common.

 

Which is that all of them are either AA Monsters or at least have a Decent AA....

From Soviet BBs to the Hill Tier 5 DD all of them have Good AA.

 

Because WG does not want their New Ships to be sitting in Store without anyone buying them due to them just being Fodder for the currently overpowered CVs...

[CaptainOkita]

31 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Counterplay options to CVs only exist if they don't know what they're doing.

Yes and no. Yes - as you pointed out some exploits negate AA entirely and thats on WG completely. No - any 2+ ship blob will shred your planes if you miss the timing on said exploits. If said exploits are removed it means do nothing most of the match.T his is not skill but again poor design. At least i can fudge up in another class quickly and return to port. Not draw it out the whole match.

Like i said before regardless action cv needs to be thrown out a window.

 

This game's engine is a heavily jury rigged mmorpg engine and not a physics-sim engine so i would like to say "Give or take 2-3 years of work i could make a quasi flight-shooter workable" it's what WG tried to do and failed miserably. It's probably more trouble than it's worth to make shooter elements in this engine.

[1MajorKoenig]

1 hour ago, 159Hunter said:

Well, just keep dreaming the dream that CVs were balanced and that the need for 1 player per team to have fun in an unbalanced, braindeath ship, outweights the fun of all other players.

 

We haven’t found good balance but 0.8.5 is a big step backwards and hollows out the rework so now it is only getting messi

0.8.4 was probably the closest to balance we had so far. 

[El2aZeR]

11 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

From Soviet BBs to the Hill Tier 5 DD all of them have Good AA.

 

Soviet BB AA is actually pretty pathetic until Kremlin which for SOME COMPLETELY UNKNOWN reason gets the best AA in the game.

E.g. Sovetsky Soyuz actually has far less base AA than a Cleve.

 

And well, they're about to release French DDs which are a laughing stock when under air attack.

 

9 minutes ago, CaptainOkita said:

If said exploits are removed it means do nothing most of the match - this is not skill but again poor design.

 

In addition to that these "exploits" were actually introduced as solutions to some pretty immense issues with fundamental rework mechanics. As such they literally can't be removed without compromising part of the rework.

Any reasonable developer would think that solving a problem with a different problem is untenable and the mechanic itself should be scrapped.

But as we all know WG is anything but reasonable.

[Sunleader]

10 minutes ago, CaptainOkita said:

Yes and no. Yes - as you pointed out some exploits negate AA entirely and thats on WG completely. No - any 2+ ship blob will shred your planes if you miss the timing on said exploits. If said exploits are removed it means do nothing most of the match.T his is not skill but again poor design. At least i can fudge up in another class quickly and return to port. Not draw it out the whole match.

Like i said before regardless action cv needs to be thrown out a window.

 

Sure.

Its not like this was Proven Wrong like 100 times in this Topic by People Posting Screenshots and even Sharing Replay of a T8 CV Bombing a Worcester hiding behind a Jean Bart without using any Exploits....

 

.....

[CaptainOkita]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

In addition to that these "exploits" are actually solutions to some pretty immense issues with fundamental rework mechanics. As such they literally can't be removed without compromising part of the rework.

Any reasonable developer would think that solving a problem with a different problem is untenable and the mechanic itself should be scrapped.

But as we all know WG is anything but reasonable.

Exactly and i whole heartily agree. While i disagree with some of what you say i still think in the end both of us want to have a fun game for all classes. It's nice to be able to communicate this without the "REEEE CV MAN BAD" that has grasped the community as of late. I wouldn't be surprised if WG is passively okay with this as it deflects criticism from themselves.

 

@Sunleader While my ignore seems to be not working at times. I'll indulge you on this one thing that your walls of text keep repeating. select samples are not indictive of anything. You can not prove anything using cherry picking.

 You can not prove anything by arguing that bees produce honey , honey is sweet and maple syrup is sweet -> bees produce maple syrup.

If you are not actively trolling i suggest picking up a simple book in introduction to formal logic. It's not as dreary as people say if you consider that the above statements are blatantly false and you could be actually making a valid point but it would be no of avail if it lacks in logical coherency.

[Sunleader]

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Soviet BB AA is actually pretty pathetic until Kremlin which for SOME COMPLETELY UNKNOWN reason gets the best AA in the game.

E.g. Sovetsky Soyuz actually has far less base AA than a Cleve.

 

And well, they're about to release French DDs which are a laughing stock when under air attack.

 

 

Not at all.

T3 Soviet BB gets almost the same AA as the Yubari AA Cruiser at T4 (Which is decently Strong against T4 CVs it can meet. And also absurd for a T3 BB)

T4 Soviet BB Gangut just gets the same. Which is good for a BB in T4. (Which is still Decent against T4 CVs it can meet)

T5 Soviet BB gets AA setup to make it Playable even against T6 CVs having more AA than most T5 Cruisers.(Which is Ridiculous against T4 CVs and Decent against T6 CVs)

T6 Soviet BB gets AA setup that Equals several T8 Cruisers.....(Yeah lets not Talk about it WG really did not want this to Suck when it meets T8 CVs)....

T7 Soviet BB gets once more roughly an Equal Setup to this. Still meaning it Equals several T8 Cruisers.... (See above)

T8 Soviet BB gets only a Minor increase thus also staying Equal to the Average T8 Cruisers. (Down to just Decent again)

T9 Soviet BB is the First actual Oddity here. Because its Still staying at this T8 Cruiser level. (Which indeed makes it somewhat Weak compared to the others. But is still a Decent AA compared to most other Ships.)

T10 Soviet BB. (Yeah lets not Talk about the Kremlin.....)

 

 

And Well.

Maybe the French DDs coming is the actual Reason for them Starting to Nerf CVs....

I would not be Surprised if all our Complaints were entirely meaningless. And the reason they now start Nerfing CVs is because the Big AA Ships are out and Sold and now the Weak AA Ships are coming so CVs need to be Nerfed First so they dont suck.....

 

 

11 minutes ago, CaptainOkita said:

Exactly and i whole heartily agree. While i disagree with some of what you say i still think in the end both of us want to have a fun game for all classes. It's nice to be able to communicate this without the "REEEE CV MAN BAD" that has grasped the community as of late. I wouldn't be surprised if WG is passively okay with this as it deflects criticism from themselves.

 

@Sunleader While my ignore seems to be not working at times. I'll indulge you on this one thing that your walls of text keep repeating. select samples are not indictive of anything. You can not prove anything using cherry picking.

 You can not prove anything by arguing that bees produce honey , honey is sweet and maple syrup is sweet -> bees produce maple syrup.

If you are not actively trolling i suggest picking up a simple book in introduction to formal logic. It's not as dreary as people say if you consider that the above statements are blatantly false and you could be actually making a valid point but it would be no of avail if it lacks in logical coherency.

 

Sure.

Because the Automatic AA suddenly gets Stronger for other Players for some Magic Reasons due to "Logic"

 

Sorry. But the Fact is. If you know how to Play you can Bomb any Ship in this Game with a CV 2 Tiers Lower WITHOUT using any Exploits.

And the Fact is that your constant Claims of Squadrons being Deleted is down to your lack of Skill in Evading AA and your lack of Skill in making Decisions on the Right Attack Vectors and Targets.

 

This was Proven beyond Doubt. Over and Over and Over.

You Ignoring this Evidence only Speaks for it that you know exactly that your wrong and just Argue against it because you want to Maintain/Return Overpowered CVs because you like them Overpowered.

[El2aZeR]

19 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Not at all.

T3 Soviet BB gets almost the same AA as the Yubari AA Cruiser at T4

T4 Soviet BB Gangut just gets the same. Which is good for a BB in T4.

T5 Soviet BB gets AA setup to make it Playable even against T6 CVs having more AA than most T5 Cruisers.

T6 Soviet BB gets AA setup that Equals several T8 Cruisers.....

T7 Soviet BB gets once more roughly an Equal Setup to this. Still meaning it Equals several T8 Cruisers....

T8 Soviet BB gets only a Minor increase thus also staying Equal to the Average T8 Cruisers.

T9 Soviet BB is the First actual Oddity here. Because its Still staying at this T8 Cruiser level. Which indeed makes it somewhat Weak compared to the others. But is still a Decent AA compared to most other Ships.

T10 Soviet BB. Yeah lets not Talk about the Kremlin.....

 

While your analysis is ofc correct do remember that AA is kinda inconsequential until you hit high tier AA ship levels. Also keep in mind the hit probability modifier and not only base DPS.

I've had little issues with RU BBs across the board until ofc Kremlin. So while RU BBs generally have comparatively decent AA, that's only because AA in general is kinda pathetic until high tiers and won't win them any prizes when it comes to defending against an air strike.

 

19 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Maybe the French DDs coming is the actual Reason for them Starting to Nerf CVs....

 

 

Good point actually. 

[Sunleader]

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

While your analysis is ofc correct do keep in mind that AA is kinda inconsequential until you hit high tier AA ship levels. Also keep in mind the hit probability modifier and not only base DPS.

I've had little issues with RU BBs across the board until ofc Kremlin. So while RU BBs generally have comparatively decent AA, that's only because AA in general is kinda pathetic until high tiers and won't win them any prizes when it comes to defending against an air strike.

 

It sure wont.

But just like the 0.8.5 Update.

Its not about Stopping the Strike.

Its about the Player Feeling like it does something. And about making CVs Choose a Different Target that costs less Planes :)

 

As I just Showed in the other Topic.

Even the Mightly Kremlin is Fodder for my T8 CV even in 0.8.5

But if I got the Choice to Bomb a GK which has Horrible Torpedo Protection and whose AA will for most Part not really prevent me striking it 2 times at once.

Or to Bomb a Kremlin which will get me less Damage thanks to Big Torpedo Bulges and which I will usually only Bomb Once per Run due to its AA not being Something where you want to Stay for longer Periods of Time...

 

Then the GK it is.

And this Helps ALOT to make a Class Attractive. :)

[Operation_Crossroads_1]

This is the bit that made me laugh the most:

 

6 hours ago, Eddy209 said:

the DD can minimize damage. And by far not guarantied that a squad of rocketplanes takes the DD out in one go - so at least the DD has some time to reposition.

 

so no real counterplay options beyond hoping that the CV doesn't know what it's doing and the fact that it's not certain death for the DD player is somehow balanced.

 

Just sick man.

 

[Panocek]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Any reasonable developer would think that solving a problem with a different problem is untenable and the mechanic itself should be scrapped

Thats more like MVP approach - Minimum Viable Product... Also explains glorious UI in game

[KillStealBoss]

53 minutes ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

This is the bit that made me laugh the most:

 

 

so no real counterplay options beyond hoping that the CV doesn't know what it's doing and the fact that it's not certain death for the DD player is somehow balanced.

 

Just sick man.

 

The DD has also smoke. The CV won't waste time to fly over it. The exception are French DDs, though they will take less damage in the middle section cause they have faster saturation.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Operation_Crossroads_1 said:

This is the bit that made me laugh the most:

 

 

so no real counterplay options beyond hoping that the CV doesn't know what it's doing and the fact that it's not certain death for the DD player is somehow balanced.

 

Just sick man.

 

 

The Real sick part of this.

Is the Implication that he thinks CVs are not Ruining DD Gameplay unless they are Guaranteed to Onehit them...

 

 

[CptBarney]

31 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

The Real sick part of this.

Is the Implication that he thinks CVs are not Ruining DD Gameplay unless they are Guaranteed to Onehit them...

 

 

Well miss lolicon ark royal will hit the servers soon and well r.i.p any DD.

 

Too be honest missed opportunity to give the blackburns two 500lb bombs instead of rockets, but wargaming have always been useless when it comes to logic half the time.

[KillStealBoss]

24 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Well miss lolicon ark royal will hit the servers soon and well r.i.p any DD.

Ehm, why? It has some powerful rockets?