CV Rework Discussion

[1MajorKoenig]

11 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

So why not instead of buffing the AA to levels that are even harder to do anything against it. 

Why not just nerv the DMG potential.

For Example nerv AP bombs alpha dmg.

etc...

This would make the ship more enjoable because you still feel like you can do something

and people will have less of a problem because the will just feel as annoyed as a dd spamming you with he

 

They already did this to a degree. A torpedo does now less damage than a normal AP pen. Of source one could go that way and adjust damage output that way. Certainly better than this AA bull-

 

7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

After all there's no reason to play a class that is purely laid out to deal damage but can't. Case and point: Low tier CVs.

 

Low tier CVa also suffer from painfully slow planes (=looong coffee breaks) and tiny squadrons. 

 

They usually deal the least damage out of all ships - doesn’t need to be that extreme. 

[DFens_666]

13 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

I'm well aware as I had the (mis)fortune to have played with several recently. All of them were terrible, all of them were the primary cause for their teams' loss.

One of the reasons why the effectiveness of the ST program itself can be called into question. If the players have no clue what they're doing, what makes them capable of judging anything they play?

 

There is a german CC streaming every Friday/Monday playing often with 2 other CCs... one of them is really bad, and he always whines how every ships sucks. His comment to Siegfried was "needs 3 sec reload" Naturally, he almost never uses anything else than HE.

Funny sidenote: He hated RTS CVs. With new CVs, he was also whining at first, but after trying it out, it basicly became his main class up till 0.8.4 id say. Naturally, he sucked in them aswell (reversing to the mapborder, dropping DDs with AP bombs and whatnot...)

[1MajorKoenig]

42 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

At first I didnt think so either, because im against different mechanics for different classes, but after some thinking, i realized it actually would be pretty good.

Spotting delay could also work, depending on the time.

But everyone who thinks, spotting is not important, doesnt understand this game very well.

 

I didn’t say spotting isn’t important. I said I don’t see any problem with the way CVs spot.

 

But that aside - what is not smart about the idea is that you are essentially become a map border sniper. Not spotting for yourself is as dumb as it can ever get 

[El2aZeR]

Just now, 1MajorKoenig said:

Low tier CVa also suffer from painfully slow planes (=looong coffee breaks) and tiny squadrons. 

 

They usually deal the least damage out of all ships - doesn’t need to be that extreme. 

 

I can assure you that this is in fact for a very good reason.

Because during testing low tier planes, as with all planes (anyone remember 350kn Midway RFs?), used to be much MUCH faster and as such had pretty good damage potential despite their low damage ordinance. That made them rather overpowered to say the least.

[CptBarney]

23 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

I'm well aware as I had the (mis)fortune to have played with several recently. All of them were terrible, all of them were the primary cause for their teams' loss.

One of the reasons why the effectiveness of the ST program itself can be called into question. If the players have no clue what they're doing, what makes them capable of judging anything they play?

But meh, it's not like WG really listens to negative feedback unless it's a complete and utter storm.

One actually complained in chat then said.

 

Supertester: oH lOoK a TOxiC pLAyeR iM gOInG tO rEPorT tHIs tO wG

 

That was after i called him out on sailing broadside to a georgia, alscase, nagato, edinburgh, akatzuki and a alaska and suiciding and there positions were known for at least 3mins.

 

After that several peeps from both teams started to take the piss out of him including the guy that deleted him.

 

his reaction:

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Both teams:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, CptBarney said:

Supertester: oH lOoK a TOxiC pLAyeR iM gOInG tO rEPorT tHIs tO wG

 

Yeah, seen that too already.

One of the reasons why I tend to focus them if the situation allows it.

[1MajorKoenig]

6 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

I can assure you that this is in fact for a very good reason.

Because during testing low tier planes, as with all planes (anyone remember 350kn Midway RFs?), used to be much MUCH faster and as such had pretty good damage potential despite their low damage ordinance. That made them rather overpowered to say the least.

 

Well ok - fine. Even better. So WeeGee has even TWO parameters to play with before making AA monkey-proof. The damage dealt by bombs, torps and rockets AND aircraft speed.

 

So it is even much easier to balance even without -ing up Royale!

 

That makes me somehow admire WG for their ability to screw things up nevertheless - it’s in its own way amazing 

[DFens_666]

11 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

I didn’t say spotting isn’t important. I said I don’t see any problem with the way CVs spot.

 

But that aside - what is not smart about the idea is that you are essentially become a map border sniper. Not spotting for yourself is as dumb as it can ever get 

 

Ofc CVs can spot for themselves - just not for the others (minimap only)

[CptBarney]

9 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Well ok - fine. Even better. So WeeGee has even TWO parameters to play with before making AA monkey-proof. The damage dealt by bombs, torps and rockets AND aircraft speed.

 

So it is even much easier to balance even without -ing up Royale!

 

That makes me somehow admire WG for their ability to screw things up nevertheless - it’s in its own way amazing 

You should check out world of tanks for further 'admiration' lol

 

I wonder if anyone has played their rpg games yet? i could imagine smoll2razers reaction if wargaming took over kancolle and azur lane

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

That makes me somehow admire WG for their ability to screw things up nevertheless - it’s in its own way amazing 

 

Meh, after ~3 years of watching them  up pretty much everything related to CVs this is imo rather mild by comparison.

To me the highlight is still either when they declared CVs balanced enough to release new premium CVs after literally doing nothing but releasing an incredibly buggy UI update that was supposed to make it more responsive and swapping a few buttons around via the alt control scheme

OR

when WG declared that we all suck and just have to git gud as a response to everyone, including top CV players such as Fara, complaining that the release version of the GZ is unplayably bad.

 

As I've always stated, it was inevitable that we'd end up here. If not because of the rework being inherently flawed, then certainly because of WG's sheer incompetence.

[Panocek]

51 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

If the players have no clue what they're doing, what makes them capable of judging anything they play?

AFAIK ST can put their feedback about new toys which may or may not be sent to shredder by default, but their main purpose is to deliver stats to the spreadsheet as well to do menial QA tasks like bugchecking islands, testing ships for holes in armor etc

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

1 hour ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

Alright so i'm not allowed to have an Personal opinion (i don't have idea how you come in conclusion that my opinion is apparently related to WG).

Sure. You are entitled on a personal opinion, no matter what it is. I do however express my hope that WG does not value that personal opinion as a Supertester, because I think the way you string together arguments and thoughts can be damaging to the game and is frankly quite weird.

1 hour ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

IT will make no sense so i just don't understand why people like you, El2aZeR and Sunleader want to push wargaming to implement more and more CV nerves.

Really. Nowhere do I call for constant CV nerfs. I am not in a particular camp. I do think balancing CV's is near impossible, which is why I think WG has to keep trying, because they failed so far. I play all classes and would love to play my Graff Zeppelin again, but as it stands now, I do not. As predicted, CV's are not much fun to play if you can't be a bully in it, something which @El2aZeR has been pointing out for ages, and I agree. I started playing CV because they were able to crap on anything after 0.8.0, except CV's themselves. So I adapted and played CV only for a while and shat on everyone else that didn't.

 

I know this much: I think 1 CV per side is enough, and I only want to see CV's in 40-50 % of my surface ship matches. Once they get the game into a situation like that I think CV's can be a great addition to the game. Provided they can be fun without the need to be a super bully. Up to that point, I'm fine with CV's under performing and low in popularity until WG comes up with ways to make them fun for everyone.

[CptBarney]

5 minutes ago, Panocek said:

AFAIK ST can put their feedback about new toys which may or may not be sent to shredder by default, but their main purpose is to deliver stats to the spreadsheet as well to do menial QA tasks like bugchecking islands, testing ships for holes in armor etc

Probs is sent to the shredder unless the ship is russian has buff in the suggestion and is someone wargaming knows well.

 

QA is still important but i reckon there department consists of egor with 50 crates of vodka (strawberry, strong, mild and cherry) with an old 1995's computer and half a wooden desk.

 

or maybe im being too generous?

[80yearoldpotato]

11 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Meh, after ~3 years of watching them  up pretty much everything related to CVs this is imo rather mild by comparison.

To me the highlight is still either when they declared CVs balanced enough to release new premium CVs after literally doing nothing but releasing an incredibly buggy UI update that was supposed to make it more responsive and swapping a few buttons around via the alt control scheme

OR

when WG declared that we all suck and just have to git gud as a response to everyone, including top CV players such as Fara, complaining that the release version of the GZ is unplayably bad.

 

As I've always stated, it was inevitable that we'd end up here. If not because of the rework being inherently flawed, then certainly because of WG's sheer incompetence.

Fara had some really good suggestions regarding cv rework which WG did not listen to because of their ignorance. 

And he doesnt think its interesting enough, he usually just goes to the china server to play RTS CV.

Which is a shame. he was a person people came to for learning how to play CV. Gaishu doesnt want to play them either so the average joe has no one to learn from. 

 

Maybe you should stream top level CV? =D

 

I stream mostly CV gameplay at twitch, but are nowhere near your level of OPness

[1MajorKoenig]

33 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Ofc CVs can spot for themselves - just not for the others (minimap only)

 

Ah this proposal you meant. Well... possible but boring dir to the fact it removes another teamwork element. 

[1MajorKoenig]

24 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

when WG declared that we all suck and just have to git gud as a response to everyone, including top CV players such as Fara, complaining that the release version of the GZ is unplayably bad.

 

Yes that one was amazing 

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Ah this proposal you meant. Well... possible but boring dir to the fact it removes another teamwork element. 

 

Im not denying that (thats why i was against it first), but i believe it would make the experience for Surface ship players more bearable, while also giving CVs something back in return.

[1MajorKoenig]

11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Im not denying that (thats why i was against it first), but i believe it would make the experience for Surface ship players more bearable, while also giving CVs something back in return.

 

Given that teamwork is made harder and harder I wouldn’t support this. 

 

If - again IF - WG should come the conclusion that CV spotting - even if already significantly reduced compared to RTS - is indeed still an issue that hinders overall fun and balance/balans? for everyone there are two very simple and very effective ways to solve it:

 

1) make a “transmit Recon” button that makes your team see what you (the planes) see for X sec. Button has a Cooldown of Y sec (so you need to pick your Recon reports wisely). It makes the whole story 100% configurable as you can play with Cooldown and Recon duration if needed.

 

2) if you don’t like reasonable suggestions (believe it or not there are companies out there who don’t) you can fall back to a less flexible and less elegant solution and implement a spotting transmission delay similar to radar. Meaning a DD has Z sec to get the hell outta there. A bit of a clumsy solution but bearable 

[DFens_666]

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Given that teamwork is made harder and harder I wouldn’t support this.

 

Not only that, but it will increase skill gap between players on all other classes too. Good players will have a huge advantage by minimap spotting compared to bad players. You can even shoot by minimap if you want to, thx to the Marker However at this point, i dont even care about it anymore. Lets just farm the noobs, they dont deserve it any better

 

For me personally, i dont mind CVs that much atm. As we all know, there arent as many around anyway. But i fear WG will change something if they want to sell new premium CVs again

[1MajorKoenig]

1 minute ago, DFens_666 said:

Lets just farm the noobs, they dont deserve it any better

 

You understand that this would kill any online game do you? That can’t really be the target - there isn’t even an alternative out there 

[Prospect_b]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

As for now, I just no longer care. Seeing people burn down their own ship they built upon a lake of napalm is extremely amusing and I'm happy to fan the flames.

Also if you haven't noticed I tend to let my own teammates die rather than give them air cover/spotting/support even when my position enables me to if it suits me. The great thing about post rework CVs is that few will notice that you're also griefing your own team in additon to the enemy, so the fun factor of letting someone know that you're leaving them to die when they're screaming for e.g. air cover is much higher.

[1MajorKoenig]

3 minutes ago, Saiyko said:

 

But you know - that guy dies at the end of the movie, no?

[Prospect_b]

Just now, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

But you know - that guy dies at the end of the movie, no?

 

 

No one's Ever really gone

 

Spoiler

 

 

[CptBarney]

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

But you know - that guy dies at the end of the movie, no?

comes back to life in the new film.

 

if they are following certain stuff.

[KillStealBoss]

47 minutes ago, UltraViking said:

Fara had some really good suggestions regarding cv rework which WG did not listen to because of their ignorance. 

And he doesnt think its interesting enough, he usually just goes to the china server to play RTS CV.

Which is a shame. he was a person people came to for learning how to play CV. Gaishu doesnt want to play them either so the average joe has no one to learn from. 

 

Maybe you should stream top level CV? =D

 

I stream mostly CV gameplay at twitch, but are nowhere near your level of OPness

Yep, most CCs don't play them at all. Maybe Notser, Aerroon or iChase. There are some good players that show how to pay them (TopTier YouTube channel).