CV Rework Discussion

[COPlUM]

Also mute/block/blacklist them when the match starts, they have a monopoly on typing cringe inducing 0.0 and other such smileys in all chat when they do damage to something.

I recommend preventing the cringe before it occurs.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

16 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

No worries, it is coming. And again, you are missing the spotting. The most fun thing to do in this game. Who spots, needs to be nerfed. DDs do a lot of spotting as well, therefore, should not inflict damage in addition to spotting. 

 

Some players find it unpleasent and unbelievable that a spotter flying a plane can see more stuff then the one sailing in a boat. 

Spotting is hard to qualify.  WG stated that spotting damage was down overall in 0.8.0 vs RTS, but it seems to me that the abilities of 0.8.0 aircraft seem to give some CV better quality spotting.

 

 

Player Average for Ships [ at 2017/07/13 ]
		07/15/17
CV	Enterprise	64929
CV	Shokaku	64911
CV	Lexington	47055
DD	Kagero	29743
DD	HSF Harekaze	29412
DD	Lo Yang	27667
DD	Z-23	24911
DD	Benson	23779
DD	Ognevoi	22884
DD	Akizuki	20464
DD	Kiev	19496
Player Average for Ships [ at 2019/07/13 ]
CV	Kaga	51317
CV	Enterprise	50163
CV	Implacable	49888
CV	Saipan	49649
CV	Graf Zeppelin	49616
CV	Shokaku	49175
CV	Lexington	47375
DD	Asashio B	34324
DD	HSF Harekaze	34053
DD	Asashio	31577
DD	Cossack	30324
DD	AL Yukikaze	30278
DD	Le Terrible	27785
DD	Loyang	27700
DD	Kagero	27655
DD	Kidd	27117
DD	Ognevoi	26789
DD	Hsienyang	26469
DD	Lightning	26347
DD	Z-23	24199
DD	Benson	23406
DD	Akizuki	21347
DD	Kiev	20650

[B051LjKo]

28 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Well.

That Depends on the Personal Preference I guess.

CVs currently do Twice as much Spotting as Second Placed Spotter which is DDs.

Yes, imagine that, a plane that can spot more than a ship. How unbelievable! Historically planes were never used for spotting, thus this twisted logic should never be implemented ingame. BBs and CAs were in fact launching small spotting destroyers.

28 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Now this is just my Personal opinion of course.

And you know what they say about opinions

28 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

But the Importand Parts of the Match which Influence the Result in order Importance.

 

Are Capturing Points,

Spotting Damage,

Killing Blows,

Personal Damage,

Defending Capture Points,

 

 

DDs due to being the Top Class for Capturing Points is not Performing too well in the other Categories.

Really? A DDs are not good for killing blows? I was not aware that Shima can not kill any ship with one salvo. Or that Daring of Z52 can kick the crap of of the enemy DD that is contesting the cap. 

28 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Thats Balanced in my Eyes. Because Capturing Points is one of the Things that will Really Win you Games more often than anything else.

With the 20 Minute Time Limit. Games often End by Points instead of Total Annihilation.

And it is not balance that CVs cant cap until very late in the game? The most important category to win the match, and yet, Vs cant do it.

28 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

DDs so far also held the Spotting Damage. Because they were the only Class that was Capable of effectively Spotting Enemy Ships without being Detected and thus Susceptible to Fire themselves.

DDs were kings of spotting, until the Wright brothers invented their little thing. 

28 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

BBs are the Primary Source of Damage and also the Primary Damage Dealers and Kill Dealers.

And thats also Pretty Balanced. Because in everything else they pretty much Suck.

With a BB the only way to Capture a Point is by Suiciding into it or by Conquering it from the Enemy Team at which Point it becomes Irrelevant because the Enemy Team was Defeated.

And the only thing you Spot is Enemies that are Firing at you.....

Well, I must admit I've seen a lot of BBs taking the spot without suicide. I do not know how they do it? Maybe  WASD hax, or with the eveil use of Hydro?

28 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

CVs however. Became the Primary Damage Dealer. At the same time being the Primary Spotter. And also being the Class being able to Finish Enemies Off Reliably.

They basicly became the Top of the Board in way too much Categories.

Except they are not in the top category for damage dealing, and they are not in the top category for taking caps. Where they do excel is XP per game (which ingame does not mean absolutely nothing) and survivability, as they tend to stay in the back. Together with that comes the frag to death ratio Imagine that?

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

Spotting is a very nebulous thing to qualify in my opinion.   For example:

 

Initially, Situation Awareness (SI) was a captain skill you needed to select, and while most DD players understood its importance in caring out their roles, cruisers and battleship player generally found it unnecessary.  Not all but many.  When WG 'baked' this skill into all ships it did present DD players with some new challenges, specifically cruisers and battleship players now had preemptive warning that you were in the area.  Spotted.  

 

I found that SI actually could be 'weaponized', and used to restrict battlefield movement by opposing cruisers and battleships regardless if they ever received shell or torpedo hits.  In a battleship meta, a cruiser in open water spotted, is a receipt for disaster and most cruiser players will react rapidly to the situation.  BB player, decent ones, will quickly conclude their is danger and take counter measures, including tactical redeployment/withdraw.  Suppression.

 

CV spotting could be playing a similar roles with regards to DDs.  Suppressing them by spotting, even if there is no damage.  The would be no spotting damage, but a spotting effect would still happen, but just be unrecorded by stats.

[Sunleader]

25 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

I believe WG stated they wanted to adjust the CV vs DD balance some more, but...

 

If I may take some data out of context.  The number of 0.8.0 CVs players are not significantly higher than RTS players.  During the latest meeting in Russia a CC asked a very good question: which is more important CVs being balance or the number of player using them?  WG had no answer.

 

My personal believe is that 'balanced' 0.8.0 CV will lead to less players than RTS CV had.

 

 

 

		Players CVS
		07/15/17	07/14/18	07/13/19
CV	Higher Tier	1136	897	1212
CV	Lower Tier	1975	1235	1244

 

Not Surprised they cant answer it.

The Answer would likely make People Angry.

 

WG is a Company that wants to Sell things.

So the Answer is Clearly Player Numbers.

But Saying so might Reduce Player Numbers. So they cant just Admit this....

 

24 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

No worries, it is coming. And again, you are missing the spotting. The most fun thing to do in this game. Who spots, needs to be nerfed. DDs do a lot of spotting as well, therefore, should not inflict damage in addition to spotting. 

 

Some players find it unpleasent and unbelievable that a spotter flying a plane can see more stuff then the one sailing in a boat. 

 

As I said before.

You want to be a Damage Dealer. No Problem.

You can have Damage Potential beyond even BBs for all I care.

But then Spotting needs to be Removed from CVs.

So they become more like Artillery.

 

You cant have Everything.

And if you like it or not is Irrelevant.

Spotting is a Deciding Factor in the Game.

 

6 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Yes, imagine that, a plane that can spot more than a ship. How unbelievable! Historically planes were never used for spotting, thus this twisted logic should never be implemented ingame. BBs and CAs were in fact launching small spotting destroyers.

And you know what they say about opinions

Really? A DDs are not good for killing blows? I was not aware that Shima can not kill any ship with one salvo. Or that Daring of Z52 can kick the crap of of the enemy DD that is contesting the cap. 

And it is not balance that CVs cant cap until very late in the game? The most important category to win the match, and yet, Vs cant do it.

DDs were kings of spotting, until the Wright brothers invented their little thing. 

Well, I must admit I've seen a lot of BBs taking the spot without suicide. I do not know how they do it? Maybe  WASD hax, or with the eveil use of Hydro?

Except they are not in the top category for damage dealing, and they are not in the top category for taking caps. Where they do excel is XP per game (which ingame does not mean absolutely nothing) and survivability, as they tend to stay in the back. Together with that comes the frag to death ratio Imagine that?

 

 

Sigh.

There you go Twisting Words and Distorting Truth again...

I wish you could just now and then be Honest and not Post these Ridiculous Trolling Attempts.

 

1.

History is Irrelevant to this.

In History Planes would not Magically make Ships Appear by Spotting them.

They could Radio a Rough Position Estimate of that Ship.

Needless to say. In reality there was no HP and out of 200 Aircraft maybe 2-3 would Hit the Target.

The Aircraft Send after the Bismarck attacked Friendly Ships more often than the Bismarck...

 

2.

At least unlike certain other People which constantly make Ridiculous Claims.

I do mark Opinions and Assumptions as Such. To make Clear that its a Personal Viewpoint and not something backed up by Factual Information.

 

3.

Yes.

As you can See from Average Kills. DDs Rank behind both CVs and BBs.

DDs have a High Ability to Land a Devastating Strike and Kill and Enemy in a Single Blow.

They also have a Strong Ability to Deal an Absurd amount of Damage at once.

But both of these Abilities only Work very Close Range and at very High Risk.

They dont often come to Pass.

Meaning that they have no Way to Finish of an Heavily Damaged Enemy before he can Retreat and Repair.

 

4.

Well Mate.

If you didnt notice. DDs Pay for this Heavily.

They have the Lowest Damage and they very Often leave a Battle without doing anything because they got Killed First.

High Risk vs High Reward.

 

If you want CVs to have this kind of Game Deciding Influence. Then in Response to that CVs would also need to Pay for this.

 

If we Equal this to DDs. CVs would get only a Single Squadron of lets say 50 Planes.

This Squadron would not Replenish and not Heal. It Could Capture Points.

But if its Lost due to Flying into an AA Cruiser or something. Then the CV can Quit the Match because he is Useless.

 

That is the Kind of Risk a DD Takes every Match in Order to Capture Points.

He can be Deleted at the Wink of an Eye in the Attempt.

And he does not get a Second Try.

 

5.

Trolling Comment. Irrelevant to Topic and not Worth Further Answer.

 

6.

Learn Reading.

BBs can Take Capture Points either by Suiciding or by Conquering it from the Enemy.

But at the Point a DD Captures Points. The Game is almost Over.

If an Enemy Flank is Eliminated to the Point of BBs being able to Capture Points. The Enemy Team is Basicly Defeated on that Side.

At this point the Game will only Continue if the other Flank lost to the Enemy the same Way.

At this Point both Teams lost Half their Team already and in 9 out of 10 cases the Game is already Clearly Decided for one Side.

Meaning the Capture no longer has Match Deciding Value.

 

7.

Again Learn Reading.

I Stated they WERE the Top Damage Dealer.

They lost that Spot to BBs in 0.8.5

But they are still not far behind.

They are Still right behind BBs. Having a Big Lead over the Cruisers and DDs. While still being the Top Spotter by Twice of what DDs have and by 3 times that of the other two Classes.

 

 

 

And Now I will stop Answering you Again.

No Offense Intended.

But I am Sick of Wasting Time on Someone constantly dragging things into the Ridiculous and Constantly trying to Twist Words and Take things out of Context to Imply a Different Meaning.

If you want to Argue then do it Honest and Straight Forward.

Not by being Misleading and Dishonest on Purpose in order to Cause Misunderstanding or Muddying the Waters into Questioning a Position based on False Assumptions.

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Spotting is a very nebulous thing to qualify in my opinion.   For example:

 

Initially, Situation Awareness (SI) was a captain skill you needed to select, and while most DD players understood its importance in caring out their roles, cruisers and battleship player generally found it unnecessary.  Not all but many.  When WG 'baked' this skill into all ships it did present DD players with some new challenges, specifically cruisers and battleship players now had preemptive warning that you were in the area.  Spotted.  

 

I found that SI actually could be 'weaponized', and used to restrict battlefield movement by opposing cruisers and battleships regardless if they ever received shell or torpedo hits.  In a battleship meta, a cruiser in open water spotted, is a receipt for disaster and most cruiser players will react rapidly to the situation.  BB player, decent ones, will quickly conclude their is danger and take counter measures, including tactical redeployment/withdraw.  Suppression.

 

CV spotting could be playing a similar roles with regards to DDs.  Suppressing them by spotting, even if there is no damage.  The would be no spotting damage, but a spotting effect would still happen, but just be unrecorded by stats.

 

I dont consider it Nebulous at all.

 

You said before that you Think that Spotting Quality has Increased compared to RTS.

And that is True.

 

The Reason is a Very Basic Piece of Tactical Gameplay that any Clan will Display in Clanwars.

But which is Missing from Random Battles for most Part.

 

And that is Target Focusing.

CVs due to their Point on Spotting. Provide a Limited Target Range.

This Causes this Target to be Immediately Focused by alot of People in Range.

Resulting in this Spotting having a Far Stronger Effect than in RTS. Where usually the CV was Spread out to Spot the whole Enemy Team.

 

I do this very often on Purpose as a CV.

I Seek out a DD or another Target of Importance and Spot it.

So the Team Focuses it by Default as its the Target they See in their Flank etc.

 

Funny but True. I found this out when I beat the Challenge about Killing a Minotaur/Worcester in my T8 CV in 0.8.4.

Because when I Focused a Mino or Worcester. They were usually Immediately Focused down by my Team and thus Died before I was able to Land a Fatal Blow on them.

 

 

Spotting itself is easy to Qualify however.

Because any Damage done by Spotting would not have been Done at all otherwise.

So if a CV does 60k Spotting Damage then this is the same as him doing another 60k Damage himself.

The Effect on the Match is nearly the same after all.

 

 

 

As for the CV and DD Role.

Well thats up for Decisions.

I am Expecting Submarines this Year.

If Submarines come. DDs might get a New Role instead.

 

Now if you wanted CVs to only Act as Suppression against DDs that would be Fairly Easy.

Just Limit Plane Spotting to the Minimap.

Meaning that the Team can See the Danger in the Direction. But cant Actually Open Fire at it Effectively.

 

But this would Reduce Spotting Damage to Zero.

And would make CVs too weak again.

Meaning they would need to get a Buff in another Area to make up for it.

[DFens_666]

51 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

No worries, it is coming. And again, you are missing the spotting. The most fun thing to do in this game. Who spots, needs to be nerfed. DDs do a lot of spotting as well, therefore, should not inflict damage in addition to spotting.  

 

Some players find it unpleasent and unbelievable that a spotter flying a plane can see more stuff then the one sailing in a boat.  

 

Ive wrote several times before: Remove spotting from CVs, it will solve many problems. Also you wont need to lower CV damage output to a bare minimum. But Cruisers need to be the AA platforms then aswell. You cant have CVs crap all over them like they could / (can).

 

DDs might be able to dodge CVs reliably, if its not too easy to take 1/3 or 1/4 of their HP with one strike. However, thats not the issue if they get shot by half the enemy team at the same time they try to deal with the CV.

Cruisers on the other hand, have problems getting into position in the first place if they are constantly spotted. Also being spotted all the time simply doesnt work for some of them. So if Cruisers can get closer, they can protect their DDs with AA too.

BBs usually dont care if they are spotted or not, so from their pov it doesnt matter if CV spots them or not. But we should have less BBs with strong AA, especially when they come with fighterplanes.

 

Instead of removing spotting, they tweak everything else

 

41 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Really? A DDs are not good for killing blows? I was not aware that Shima can not kill any ship with one salvo. Or that Daring of Z52 can kick the crap of of the enemy DD that is contesting the cap.  

Whether they can or not, is not an issue. Reality is: They cant really. Average DD damage is proving that. Unless you look for the OP Kamikazes, which actually can get several devstrikes per game because of their OP torps.

[B051LjKo]

18 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

And Now I will stop Answering you Again.

No Offense Intended.

But I am Sick of Wasting Time on Someone constantly dragging things into the Ridiculous and Constantly trying to Twist Words and Take things out of Context to Imply a Different Meaning.

If you want to Argue then do it Honest and Straight Forward.

Well, I have one last question. 

 

Why do you constantly compare ship vs ship, when there can be only one CV per match, and we can have up to 5 BBs. Influence wise, you need to compare class by class to get a clear effect on the game. If you nerf the V so it falls behind a BB in all aspects but spotting (and they are almost there), what is the point of flying around? Just sit in a BB (Soviet one) and join the rest of the merry men.

[KillStealBoss]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

@Culiacan_Mexico

I would Argue for it.

Because your Missing the Spotting which is arguably the Biggest Influence that CVs have on the Matches Outcome.

And in Spotting the CVs are still absolute Top.

 

But before that.

Where is T8 ? ^^

They can make spot delay 10 sec and will solve a lot. 

[Sunleader]

15 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

They can make spot delay 10 sec and will solve a lot. 

 

Doubt that.

Unlike Radar Cruisers.

A CV is not Limited to Spot a DD for 20 Seconds.

 

So the Delay will give the DD 10 Extra Seconds.

But it wont change that after that he is Perma Spotted if the CV so Wishes.

[B051LjKo]

18 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

Doubt that.

Unlike Radar Cruisers.

A CV is not Limited to Spot a DD for 20 Seconds.

 

So the Delay will give the DD 10 Extra Seconds.

But it wont change that after that he is Perma Spotted if the CV so Wishes.

Why shouldn't he be perma spotted if the CV decides to do so? What is wrong there? A DD can perma spot a BB , and BB cant do anything about it? CV perma spotting a DD is not doing anything else. That DD is mitigating a lot of damage that would got BBs.

[Eddy209]

45 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

They can make spot delay 10 sec and will solve a lot. 

As someone who made a similar suggestion somewhere in this topic, i must say I no longer agree. Not because fairness or anything like that. Its because DD suffer most when CVs are in game. And I tell you  - Im loving it to bits. They cant hide and that is wonderfull. They have way to much influence in the game when CVs are not around. Both on the red or the green team. You get bad DDs in your team , you are at a massive disadvantage. Same goes for bad DDs on the enemy team - it usually snowballs down to a roflstomp. Cruisers and gunboat DDs used to be the counter to other DDs. But especialy midtier cruisers these days do next to nothing against DDs especialy in the midtiers where games actually have some movement left. If the game has 3+ DDs per team it often becomes a campfest as well. So the DDs rush to the caps and try to take them running into each other and then its either skill ( rather seldomly it seams) , or who is seen first (concealment) or if the MM matched your T6 torp DD against a T8 gunboat ( draw of luck)

The notion that DDs have to cap is more or less something DDs do because most DDs try to do it, and we gotten used to that. So if they dont do it right away people bash them. Therefor they have my sympathy to some degree. But other than that:

-DDs got the concealment

-they are very nimble  making them hard to hit reliably

-they are small - again hard to hit

- around targets other than DDs they idealy never have to show themselfs

-they are fast - adding to them being hard to hit and it allows them to reposition very fast

-most have smoke if everything else fail or if they have a spotter.

-They have great takedown capability if they manage to hit with their torps. 4 to 5 same tier torps will basicly kill everything in one go

-Alot of the newer ones have loads of gimmicks like hydro, or Def AA or torp reload booster

-They can only be overpenned by any BB gun in the game

-they can spot targets without exposing themselfs

 

If they, now that the CV population is basicly as low as it was, when they may face a CV in abaut 10 percent of their games  , complain about how op CVs are ..

then I say let them complain as much as they like. I for one have no sympathy left. 

Adding to that is the amount of abuse in the chat you get for just being so evil to take a cv into their game. The good old verbal middlefinger i dont mind at all. But death threats? Wisching someone cancer? Or a slow painfull death in a fire? I know those are not representative for the whole community- But for me that crosses a line.

Again - no sympathy at all.

I even say nerf them by reverting the AP shell damage. 

Those DDs are to popular anyway. 

 

Cruisers with low AA vs higher tier CVs - now those are ships that need help vs CVs. And give all cruisers a heal already. Make them good compared to BBs at all tiers like their tier IX and X brethren wich are respectable .

Leave BBs as vulnerable to CVs as they are - those we need to get moving again. But make it so that they are rather similary vulnerable. Its so silly that some of the best AA BBs are hardly phased by AP bombs like the Americans and that those that are like the KMS ships have low AA and are vulnerable to AP bombs and HE. 

 

Oh well...me again going on another rant, sorry for that  :P

[1MajorKoenig]

8 hours ago, Sunleader said:

@Culiacan_Mexico

I would Argue for it.

Because your Missing the Spotting which is arguably the Biggest Influence that CVs have on the Matches Outcome.

And in Spotting the CVs are still absolute Top.

 

But before that.

Where is T8 ? ^^

 

Dude you impressed us in two threads already with your screaming lack of abilities to read and understand numbers. You are the last person on this globe to make Balancing recommendations. So yea - please stop annoying the grown ups 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

5 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Why shouldn't he be perma spotted if the CV decides to do so? What is wrong there? A DD can perma spot a BB , and BB cant do anything about it? CV perma spotting a DD is not doing anything else. That DD is mitigating a lot of damage that would got BBs.

A major portion of most DDs defensive capabilities is designed around not being seen, while BB capabilities are design around being seen.

 

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

5 hours ago, Eddy209 said:

-They have great takedown capability if they manage to hit with their torps. 4 to 5 same tier torps will basicly kill everything in one go

DDs average the lowest damage of all ship types.  Their take down is the weakest.

[159Hunter]

6 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Why do you constantly compare ship vs ship, when there can be only one CV per match, and we can have up to 5 BBs. Influence wise, you need to compare class by class to get a clear effect on the game. If you nerf the V so it falls behind a BB in all aspects but spotting (and they are almost there), what is the point of flying around? Just sit in a BB (Soviet one) and join the rest of the merry men.

So you are implying that because up to 5 BBs are allowed and only 1 or 2 CVs each CV should have the influence of 2,5 to 5 BBs? Really?

Do you even care about balance or just that your OP CV toy got nerfed to more normal levels?

5 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Why shouldn't he be perma spotted if the CV decides to do so? What is wrong there? A DD can perma spot a BB , and BB cant do anything about it? CV perma spotting a DD is not doing anything else. That DD is mitigating a lot of damage that would got BBs.

Do you even play DDs....

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

DDs have a High Ability to Land a Devastating Strike and Kill and Enemy in a Single Blow.

They also have a Strong Ability to Deal an Absurd amount of Damage at once.

But both of these Abilities only Work very Close Range and at very High Risk.

They dont often come to Pass.

Meaning that they have no Way to Finish of an Heavily Damaged Enemy before he can Retreat and Repair.

This shows you don't even play that much DD or you just dont know how to play them in my personal opinion.

I never had issues "finishing of a heavy dmged target" even if it is a BB. 

Also if you say the work only well in close Ranges then sorry you never played probably then DD's correctly.

I would say DD's are a hard class to play but if you can play them good then you can carry the game better then the CV can.

(here comes the counter agument. Come on let it roll)

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

That is the Kind of Risk a DD Takes every Match in Order to Capture Points.

He can be Deleted at the Wink of an Eye in the Attempt.

And he does not get a Second Try.

As previously stated you did blow that up like no one else :D and you saying that you talking in a opinion manner.

NO you don't need to risk your DD if you want to capture and if you do it right you even after 3 attempts can still be alive.

Yes there is a risk involve but so is it alway's with every class. Don't come with "CV dont have ANY RISKS"  because the are meant to have only certain risks.

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Now if you wanted CVs to only Act as Suppression against DDs that would be Fairly Easy.

Just Limit Plane Spotting to the Minimap.

Meaning that the Team can See the Danger in the Direction. But cant Actually Open Fire at it Effectively.

This one just shows ether you love your DD friends or you got pretty hard harassed by enemie CV's when the rework came out.

I play DD's regulary and not only AA heavy DDS but also gun dds etc... and i had only on rare occasion a frustatring filling because the nerved the rockets already hard enough. And the can't strike me in on go except as a DD player you leave your flipping AA on then sorry you are just made of stupid.

6 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

Remove spotting from CVs, it will solve many problems.

OOKay and then you fly around and lose magicly all your planes because and unspotted mino was somewhere you never know where and that continues until a dd spots for you O.o good luck.

6 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Why do you constantly compare ship vs ship, when there can be only one CV per match, and we can have up to 5 BBs. Influence wise, you need to compare class by class to get a clear effect on the game. If you nerf the V so it falls behind a BB in all aspects but spotting (and they are almost there), what is the point of flying around? Just sit in a BB (Soviet one) and join the rest of the merry men.

I love you comment its brilliant. 100% truth people just [edited] because there favorite class is Apparently weaker then CV so pls nerv ;)

5 hours ago, Eddy209 said:

-They can only be overpenned by any BB gun in the game

I need to correct you on that because currently haru and khaba are still full damage before the changed that aspect of the game. So yes you can shout gun a Haru or khaba still in 1 shout with a alsace or what not with 1 salvo of course you need to be lucky.

 

 

To round it up i just will say something that i hear from some else. And it hits the nail in the coffin. 

CV's are meant to counter everyone and everyone is meant to counter CV. 

CV's can get punished very hard from BB's because the have such a long firing range and the just need to be spotted and the are already focus fired by everyone.

BB's on the other hand can get pretty hard farmed by the CV if the sail around by themselves.

CV's can punish a CA with AP bombs or Rocket planes if the have AA left etc...

CA's on the other hand has most of the time very good AA to counter and stop CV from attacking.

CV's can spot DD's pretty ez and deal some dmg to them in return if the dd player is predictable.

DD's on the other hand are Sneaky little buggers who can sneak around and can even avoid CV planes if done correctly. I need to remind you that DD's most of them have Air detection of around 2-3 km. What is not enough to keep him spotted and make an attack run immediately.

 

I total i just think people need to adapt and maybe stop sailing around the map completely by themselves and then whine in the forum that the got focused out.

[159Hunter]

1 minute ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

OOKay and then you fly around and lose magicly all your planes because and unspotted mino was somewhere you never know where and that continues until a dd spots for you O.o good luck.

What @DFens_666 is saying is that CVs can ofc still spot for themselves, he's playing with the idea of no longer having planes spot for the remainder of the team.

1 minute ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

I love you comment its brilliant. 100% truth people just [edited] because there favorite class is Apparently weaker then CV so pls nerv ;)

 I total i just think people need to adapt and maybe stop sailing around the map completely by themselves and then whine in the forum that the got focused out.

Both comments can be used on CV players as well: your toy was OP as hell in 0.8.0 and all you guys stated was: adapt to the new meta surface ships.

Guess what: your CV is still strong now, but way more balanced in terms of power projection. So adapt to this new meta (in which you can no longer roflstomp any ship you encounter, sorta).

[1MajorKoenig]

5 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

What @DFens_666 is saying is that CVs can ofc still spot for themselves, he's playing with the idea of no longer having planes spot for the remainder of the team.

 

Which is - quite frankly - not a very smart idea. IF spotting is an issue - which I would strongly challenge - one could think about some delaying mechanism as proposed multiple times now 

 

7 minutes ago, 159Hunter said:

Guess what: your CV is still strong now, but way more balanced in terms of power projection. So adapt to this new meta (in which you can no longer roflstomp any ship you encounter, sorta).

 

While I would like to overcome this “them vs us” the part you guys miss us that it isn’t only about the absolute power level of CVs but that the changes are contradictory to the CV mechanics making it  to play 

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

Just now, 159Hunter said:

Both comments can be used on CV players as well: your toy was OP as hell in 0.8.0 and all you guys stated was: adapt to the new meta surface ships.

Guess what: your CV is still strong now, but way more balanced in terms of power projection. So adapt to this new meta (in which you can no longer roflstomp any ship you encounter, sorta).

I never said that the should not nerve CV's in the first place. I always said that unreasonable non stop Nerving Patch after Patch is totally (how should is say) inappropriate. I can't imagine that everything is already Tested etc... and if we look at balancing. Certain ships in the game still are redicoulus op *cough* Conq *cough* but yeah no one did anything about that. But hey it's just a BB that has currently the highest average DMG in the game. Even higher then the RTS CV that where apparently sooo OP and that ships does not get nerved. (i dont count bourgogne since its more like an exclusive ship)

Now CV's are just getting hammered and hammered patch after patch without any mandan Reason why. I understand the where OP in regards of when the came out. But after Nerf and Nerf that is just to much. No most of the consumables that you have are useless and skills are also usless. You had adrenalin rush on your captain well sucks to be you because its now useless. You have heal on TB? OH really well its now totally useless. Dont even bother pressing the heal button on TB except you want to recall them and hope that the 5 sec's are enough to save most of them. Oh you paid 50 euros for a New CV called GZ? Nice thx for the money we will nerv it now THX (if you dont know what i mean with nerving then check the GZ AP bomb drop angles and you will see what i mean). OR best how about we remove 10-20 knots speed of ALL planes of every CV? Brilliant!

The list just goes on and on. Did you realize that currently the most successful ships in CV's are Enterprise and Kaga? Do you know why? The can throw there planes against you without paying to much attention since the will get the planes back pretty fast or have a huge reserve.

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

No amount of further crying justifies further CV nerfs.

It's clear that most individuals that call for further nerf ideas want them removed.

 

I one day sat down in my Gearing (which is a DD i'm terrible in) and played 18 matches and came out of that with a 80%~ solo winrate. Might have been luck, might have been me improving.

Of those 18 matches half of them were CV games.

 

Then i played my Midway and i have to work like a madman to achieve any significant impact on the match outcome. To be honest? Playing DD and winning became so much easier all of a sudden.

 

WG is continueing to nerf CV in the next two patches with increasing AA efficiency. There is absolutely no need to fix spotting after this because CV pop will drop below RTS levels after those AA increases.

The CV pop is already declining hard.

 

There is absolutely nothing in regards to nerfs that needs to be done.

It's the players that are op in CVs not the class in itself in her current state and noone should give a damn about one El2aZeR dominating solo in his Enterprise.

You should give a damn about players like @NoobySkooby

Who cant commit the same amount of time without impressive talent who tried having some fun with a new class and who got kicked in the balls by constant nerfs.

I mentored him during 8.3 times back then it was already difficult for him. He is a very friendly person and as casual as one can get.

If you think a CV can ever be OP in his hands you are crazy. Unicum CV players deserve to "ruin" your exp as does the unicum BB player deserve to devstrike you every tenth game.

 

There is absolutely no reason to further kill the CV class. But remember that what i said months ago still holds truth which is the likes of El2aZeR and a few less talented unicums will always make CV work and overperform.

 

So git gud instead of crying in the forum.

 

 

[1MajorKoenig]

19 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

No amount of further crying justifies further CV nerfs.

It's clear that most individuals that call for further nerf ideas want them removed.

 

I one day sat down in my Gearing (which is a DD i'm terrible in) and played 18 matches and came out of that with a 80%~ solo winrate. Might have been luck, might have been me improving.

Of those 18 matches half of them were CV games.

 

Then i played my Midway and i have to work like a madman to achieve any significant impact on the match outcome. To be honest? Playing DD and winning became so much easier all of a sudden.

 

WG is continueing to nerf CV in the next two patches with increasing AA efficiency. There is absolutely no need to fix spotting after this because CV pop will drop below RTS levels after those AA increases.

The CV pop is already declining hard.

 

There is absolutely nothing in regards to nerfs that needs to be done.

It's the players that are op in CVs not the class in itself in her current state and noone should give a damn about one El2aZeR dominating solo in his Enterprise.

You should give a damn about players like @NoobySkooby

Who cant commit the same amount of time without impressive talent who tried having some fun with a new class and who got kicked in the balls by constant nerfs.

I mentored him during 8.3 times back then it was already difficult for him. He is a very friendly person and as casual as one can get.

If you think a CV can ever be OP in his hands you are crazy. Unicum CV players deserve to "ruin" your exp as does the unicum BB player deserve to devstrike you every tenth game.

 

There is absolutely no reason to further kill the CV class. But remember that what i said months ago still holds truth which is the likes of El2aZeR and a few less talented unicums will always make CV work and overperform.

 

So git gud instead of crying in the forum.

 

 

 

This post contains so much truth

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

I would say DD's are a hard class to play but if you can play them good then you can carry the game better then the CV can.

 

And what do you base this belief on if I may ask?

 

2 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

And the can't strike me in on go except as a DD player you leave your flipping AA on then sorry you are just made of stupid.

 

That actually depends on the attack angle and the plane.

 

2 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

I love you comment its brilliant. 100% truth people just [edited] because there favorite class is Apparently weaker then CV so pls nerv ;)

 

Which I suppose would make sense if, you know, we weren't playing and enjoying all classes.

Also who's to say that you guys just don't want to keep CVs op? The argument goes both ways.

 

2 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

CV's are meant to counter everyone and everyone is meant to counter CV. 

CV's can get punished very hard from BB's because the have such a long firing range and the just need to be spotted and the are already focus fired by everyone.

BB's on the other hand can get pretty hard farmed by the CV if the sail around by themselves.

CV's can punish a CA with AP bombs or Rocket planes if the have AA left etc...

CA's on the other hand has most of the time very good AA to counter and stop CV from attacking.

CV's can spot DD's pretty ez and deal some dmg to them in return if the dd player is predictable.

DD's on the other hand are Sneaky little buggers who can sneak around and can even avoid CV planes if done correctly. I need to remind you that DD's most of them have Air detection of around 2-3 km. What is not enough to keep him spotted and make an attack run immediately.

 

1. The amount of AA required is disproportionate to the damage a CV can deal. Currently you need several ships with good AA to fully deny a strike.

2. Jesus Christ, do you even play CVs? BBs firing at you is the least of your issues. In fact in 99% of cases you can actually just laugh in their faces for wasting a salvo. Because guess what, unless you  up you either have hard cover between you and enemy BBs or you're sitting at extreme range where taking severe damage from BB AP becomes extremely unlikely at best. At T10 you even gain near full immunity to long range AP fire.

3. Yeah, no. BBs are the great winners of this rework. Even the Musashi is one of the best AA ships around due to the glorious catapult fighter which is far more valuable when used correctly than DFAA. CVs punish DDs and cruisers far more effectively.

4. Should it really be like that?

5. There are ways around good AA. I'm sure the Minotaur I struck and killed in my Enterprise with just 11 bomb hits recently and only 9 DBs lost didn't appreciate his "good" AA. Ironically these things don't work against catapult fighters.

6. Skilled DDs can also be killed or taken out of the match pretty easily. The issue is ofc that not every CV player knows this. In fact average CV skill is down the drain and far worse when compared to the RTS iteration.

7. Just wat. It's fairly easy to discern a DDs position. If you haven't noticed, aircraft nowadays get a warning that they're detected. Combine that with the minimap and some basic map awareness along with DD experience and you should be able to find a DD within seconds in 90% of all cases. Also the minimum required distance for an effective attack with most high tier RFs is about 3km, shorter if you have enough boost available. Not to mention DD concealment can be cheesed via fighter.

 

50 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

There is absolutely no reason to further kill the CV class. But remember that what i said months ago still holds truth which is the likes of El2aZeR and a few less talented unicums will always make CV work and overperform.

 

The issue is very simple. If you make reworked CVs too easy to play so that even mediocre players can use them effectively, they inevitably become immensely overpowered when a skilled player uses them. If you nerf them to the point where a skilled player cannot just dominate matches, they'll inevitably become impossible to play for the majority of the population. This is because the CV rework is purely centered around damage dealing and nothing else, one of the reasons why it was doomed from the outset.

Which is what I've been telling people for months even before the rework got released but ofc no one believed me, so excuse me for my lack of sympathy. "What do you know lol?", "You just want to keep your op toy!", "WG will surely make this right!", "They'll only need to make a few tweaks!", etc. etc. etc.

 

But hey, maybe now players like @NoobySkooby will appreciate the feeling of losing something fun to play.

Just like we RTS CV players did.

[1MajorKoenig]

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

The issue is very simple. If you make reworked CVs too easy to play so that even mediocre players can use them effectively, they inevitably become immensely overpowered when a skilled player uses them

 

Which is true for any class and shows more with higher class influence. But honestly and again - you can’t balance a class based on the best players. Simple isn’t gonna fly and frankly doesn’t make any sense. 

 

7 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

losing something fun to play.

Just like we RTS CV players did.

 

Which brings us to the core of this discussion - or at least your very own. Don’t get me wrong - I had a lot of sympathy for those who had to let go of „their“ game and I felt really sorry for those knowing how much effort it took to master this iteration. But a good part of the discussion on current problems is now only fueled by this feeling. What certainly isn’t overly helpful is “I had to give up my toy now I do everything to spoil someone else’s”.

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

4 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Just like we RTS CV players did.

Just be honest with yourself and admit that you hate the current rework. 

I just find yourself pretty laughable.

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Skilled DDs can also be killed or taken out of the match pretty easily. The issue is ofc that not every CV player knows this. In fact average CV skill is down the drain and far worse when compared to the RTS iteration.

i dont care what kinda DD players you where facing but every CV player i faced in my DD atleast took him over 5 min's to kill me because i'm not made of stupid sorry. And if you want to waste your time as a CV to hunt me for 5 min. Go ahead i archieved what i set out to make it. TO STOP YOU FROM DAMAGING THE REST OF MY TEAM.

But hey we see what you want. You want to make CV soo hard to play that ether the revert back to your sooo FAVORITE RTS formate. OR you just want to feel like a special unicorn player that is a CV main and no one else is suppose to play that class with success accept you.

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Jesus Christ, do you even play CVs?

Yes i do play CV and if you did not see it i'm also a ST so what? if you can't read my entire post and try to just bad mouth someone you just sound like an arrogant person. Funny enough i know those kinda people also in the anime community. Overprotective over there own hobby and try to take other peoples fun. 

IF i'm wrong then please excuss me but you are just not giving constructive responses back. I explain it in detail and i also said that i know that when CV came out that the where op but hey lets push that under the RUG since i SAID THE FOLLOWING!

2 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

I never said that the should not nerve CV's in the first place. I always said that unreasonable non stop Nerving Patch after Patch is totally (how should is say) inappropriate.

 

BUT hey lets nerv them even more before we know anything and lets give the BB's and DD's and CA's even more of an ez game to handle against CV. 

how about lets give them insta delete but of air units with an cooldown of 60 sec's. MAKE IT EVEN EASIER to deal with planes. GREAT.

Why not try to give the enemie manual AA so the need to take care of the planes themself's but no we need to nerv everything to the ground because some unicorns are saying its fine.

SO why is Bourgogne still not nerved then? Ah yeah because no one else then the unicorns have access to that ship GOOD JOB!

[1MajorKoenig]

7 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

how about lets give them insta delete but of air units with an cooldown of 60 sec's. MAKE IT EVEN EASIER to deal with planes. GREAT.

 

The new “delete-A/C” button in 0.8.7 is more or less just that. It’s not even tight to any AA capabilities of a ship. Pretty much bull-

 

9 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

we need to nerv everything to the ground because some unicorns are saying its fine.

 

Again there is no point in balancing for some individuals. The critical point is that the CV class (or any class for that matter) needs to maintain a critical mass of players to be balanceable (does that word even exist...? Anyhow). If you fall below this critical mass you will see exactly the same as what happened to the RTS carriers. Therefore WG should be VERY aware of CV player retention and don’t follow each and every request for nerfing - which quite frankly are a lot of times either selfish (“don’t touch my tralala”) or pretty uninformed.