CV Rework Discussion

[Lootboxer]

I got Lexington recently after the patch, and quickly realised how easy it is to  on DDs with TTs. Worst thing is that when I am bottom tier DDs are the only ones that I can  on without whole squadrons disappearing.

It feels dirty but what else can I do until ships are scattered around the map and AA mounts are damaged? Even if I can't kill them because they are under AA umbrella I will at least make sure that they are spotted, miserable, useless. I will force them to waste smokes or to go back where they are no danger to our fleet. It hurts me as a DD main but it's more efficient than loosing all my planes trying to get a single drop against the blob. I am average player and I can't carry, especially in a CV, but it is working somehow and it's even fun if my team is competent in targeting spotted ships. The closest thing to a team work in a current CVs. If my team is speshul then it's lost most of the time regardless of the class unless you are in a 3 ships division with good players. CVs still seem to be potent class with a big influence on the battle even if damage numbers are lower now. It is so easy to be top of the team if top tier and at least top 5 if bottom. 

[DFens_666]

2 hours ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

BB little influence...? 

 

Not even considering they usually appear in dozens it’s the DDs and their BBs projecting influence? Or was it some strange joke I didn’t catch?

 

Because BBs cant spot, they lack a huge aspect of influencing the game. Certainly some are better than others (missouri because Radar and AA f.e.)

Most BB players simply lack the ability to influence the game. Whether they are there or not, is almost irrelevant. Only if all BBs sit on one spot it starts to be problematic.

 

CVs and DDs have much more impact on the outcome, so you can get higher WR with them (or worse too). One can hardly suck so hard in a BB to get a very bad WR imo.

[1MajorKoenig]

11 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Most BB players simply lack the ability to influence the game

 

Which is a totally different statement and goes from time to time with 

 

12 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

all BBs sit on one spot

 

I don’t think I tell you a secret that BB players are not famous for really getting deep into game mechanics because quite frankly they don’t need to. They need to know that the ships act like Tonks on water and the angling takes away some damage. And that depending on speed there are few viable routes & positions on each map. And you need to organize some entertainment for the 30sec between “action”.

 

However:

15 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

CVs and DDs have much more impact on the outcome

 

Yes DDs can decide battles. Now CVs have some influence as well but I wouldn’t say it’s higher than DDs. A well played DD is still the most influential unit on the battlefield and the DD class is still the one with the highest skill / reward rating. 

 

 

[KillStealBoss]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

I dont think it needs that really.

Since 5 Seconds are Enough to Cross into Pretty much any Ships Range and Drop

Well I think it should heal less dmg but work longer. Like 20 sec. And it won't be OP especially when there's lots of AA. But attacking one isolated ship would be more effective. 

[DFens_666]

38 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Yes DDs can decide battles. Now CVs have some influence as well but I wouldn’t say it’s higher than DDs. A well played DD is still the most influential unit on the battlefield and the DD class is still the one with the highest skill / reward rating. 

 

 

So BBs are 3rd class at influencing at best? Thats why i say, BBs dont have that much influence. Ofc you need them, but BBs need also teammates around them.

Whether DDs or CVs have more influence right now... hard to say i guess. I think it depends mostly on the match setup. A good CV can keep a DD at bay.

[KillStealBoss]

13 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

So BBs are 3rd class at influencing at best? Thats why i say, BBs dont have that much influence. Ofc you need them, but BBs need also teammates around them.

Whether DDs or CVs have more influence right now... hard to say i guess. I think it depends mostly on the match setup. A good CV can keep a DD at bay.

Every class is needed to support. But BB support isn't that important as DD support and capping. 

[1MajorKoenig]

48 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

So BBs are 3rd class at influencing at best? Thats why i say, BBs dont have that much influence. Ofc you need them, but BBs need also teammates around them.

Whether DDs or CVs have more influence right now... hard to say i guess. I think it depends mostly on the match setup. A good CV can keep a DD at bay.

 

Problem here is the skill and effort distribution. I would say your statement is probable correct for the global average but for good players I see Battleships, Destroyers and CVs equally influential. With cruisers trailing a little behind as supporters / enablers 

 

Btw: DDs and CVs also enjoy some company around - just saying 

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

  

Problem here is the skill and effort distribution. I would say your statement is probable correct for the global average but for good players I see Battleships, Destroyers and CVs equally influential. With cruisers trailing a little behind as supporters / enablers

 

From personal experience could be correct. Alltho i feel, i need to put in more effort as a BB in tight games. Because punishing ships is still down to RNG, while a DD can often just spot. And getting rid of average DD players on the enemy team is not that hard Kill DD -> the others will retreat.

[artic_99]

Vor 14 Minuten, DFens_666 sagte:

 

From personal experience could be correct. Alltho i feel, i need to put in more effort as a BB in tight games. Because punishing ships is still down to RNG, while a DD can often just spot. And getting rid of average DD players on the enemy team is not that hard Kill DD -> the others will retreat.

After I played 3 games in cv yesterday I played one game Yamato. It was much easier to be the first place then it was with the CV's before. I just don't get it why you would make the hardest class in game even harder to play? And tbh as a Yamato idc for an enemy cv because as long as one teammate is with me I am practically immune to attacks..... 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

Only one week of data. (Week ending  2019/07/13)

 

This is a BB vs CV comparison at Tier 4.  The Imperator Nikolai I and Arkansas Beta, they should be ignored.

 

After the universal nerf, it is looking a little bleak.  

 

 

 

 

 

class	name	average of rates
		exp	damage caused	warship destroyed	aircraft destoryed	base capture	base defense	spot damage
BB	Imperator Nikolai I	1100	59013	1.63	0.36	2.7	11.18	8458
BB	Arkansas Beta	1032	48705	1.43	0	2.54	10.57	6197
BB	Orion	758	40241	1.07	2.22	5.89	9.48	4771
BB	Ishizuchi	840	37841	1	0.32	7.02	11.78	4613
BB	Gangut	786	37054	1	0.8	5.98	7.4	6611
BB	Kaiser	762	35247	0.97	2.09	6.03	11.06	5019
BB	Wyoming	788	34989	0.93	2.27	4.91	10.53	4429
BB	Myogi	765	31439	0.82	1.23	5.82	9.61	4844
BB	Courbet	693	30913	0.82	0.89	4.83	11.28	4602
CV	Hermes	679	22627	0.61	1.75	0.93	11.97	17527
CV	Hosho	670	21605	0.53	2.08	1.17	11.36	17109
CV	Langley	635	19194	0.46	1.99	0.26	10.97	16916

[Culiacan_Mexico]

All tier 4s. 

 

Note: some CV damage is not just below cruiser damage in many case, but also below DDs damage in a couple of cases.

 

Just one week of data, but...

 

 

 

 

 

 

class	tier	name	players	total battles	average of rates
					exp	damage caused	warship destroyed	aircraft destoryed	base capture	base defense	spot damage
BB	4	Imperator Nikolai I	3	38	1100	59013	1.63	0.36	2.7	11.18	8458
BB	4	Arkansas Beta	7	114	1032	48705	1.43	0	2.54	10.57	6197
BB	4	Orion	146	2268	758	40241	1.07	2.22	5.89	9.48	4771
BB	4	Ishizuchi	24	351	840	37841	1	0.32	7.02	11.78	4613
BB	4	Gangut	136	1782	786	37054	1	0.8	5.98	7.4	6611
BB	4	Kaiser	448	6570	762	35247	0.97	2.09	6.03	11.06	5019
BB	4	Wyoming	414	5765	788	34989	0.93	2.27	4.91	10.53	4429
BB	4	Myogi	226	3016	765	31439	0.82	1.23	5.82	9.61	4844
BB	4	Courbet	87	1141	693	30913	0.82	0.89	4.83	11.28	4602
CA	4	Yubari	44	608	832	25462	0.8	4.74	8.62	9.78	7832
CA	4	Kuma	194	2978	741	23727	0.84	0.99	6.32	7.35	5017
CA	4	Duguay-Trouin	113	1763	674	23128	0.77	0.73	6.19	6.42	5057
CV	4	Hermes	209	3475	679	22627	0.61	1.75	0.93	11.97	17527
DD	4	Shenyang	47	760	676	22016	0.74	0.67	16.47	5.86	7510
CV	4	Hosho	349	6183	670	21605	0.53	2.08	1.17	11.36	17109
DD	4	Clemson	443	6404	721	21222	0.9	0.23	11.8	4.28	6157
CA	4	Svietlana	69	955	710	21006	0.71	0.57	6.44	7.16	6280
CA	4	Phoenix	292	4247	732	20625	0.69	0.69	5.34	7.69	4520
DD	4	Isokaze	375	5475	708	20535	0.77	0.1	13.85	2.86	7788
CA	4	Karlsruhe	657	8229	809	19733	0.68	0.14	4.51	10.62	2846
DD	4	V-170	188	2966	639	19285	0.75	0.29	14.01	3.6	8069
CV	4	Langley	473	8073	635	19194	0.46	1.99	0.26	10.97	16916
CA	4	Danae	70	918	695	17955	0.73	0.85	5.48	5.05	5494
DD	4	Izyaslav	39	608	712	17049	0.75	0.46	16.72	4.27	7192
DD	4	Wakeful	149	2105	658	16895	0.69	0.18	11.86	4	7052

[1MajorKoenig]

4 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Only one week of data. (Week ending  2019/07/13)

 

This is a BB vs CV comparison at Tier 4.  The Imperator Nikolai I and Arkansas Beta, they should be ignored.

 

After the universal nerf, it is looking a little bleak.  

 

 

 

 

 

class	name	average of rates
		exp	damage caused	warship destroyed	aircraft destoryed	base capture	base defense	spot damage
BB	Imperator Nikolai I	1100	59013	1.63	0.36	2.7	11.18	8458
BB	Arkansas Beta	1032	48705	1.43	0	2.54	10.57	6197
BB	Orion	758	40241	1.07	2.22	5.89	9.48	4771
BB	Ishizuchi	840	37841	1	0.32	7.02	11.78	4613
BB	Gangut	786	37054	1	0.8	5.98	7.4	6611
BB	Kaiser	762	35247	0.97	2.09	6.03	11.06	5019
BB	Wyoming	788	34989	0.93	2.27	4.91	10.53	4429
BB	Myogi	765	31439	0.82	1.23	5.82	9.61	4844
BB	Courbet	693	30913	0.82	0.89	4.83	11.28	4602
CV	Hermes	679	22627	0.61	1.75	0.93	11.97	17527
CV	Hosho	670	21605	0.53	2.08	1.17	11.36	17109
CV	Langley	635	19194	0.46	1.99	0.26	10.97	16916

 

If these numbers are true they confirm what we already knew: T4 CVs are garbage 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

If these numbers are true they confirm what we already knew: T4 CVs are garbage 

Tier 4 CV were in a decent spot up to and including 0.8.4; and in no way needed to under go a global nerf.   I don't know if last weeks data is truly representative of 0.8.5s effect or an anomaly, but it sure looks bad.

[1MajorKoenig]

5 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Tier 4 CV were in a decent spot up to and including 0.8.4; and in no way needed to under go a global nerf.   I don't know if last weeks data is truly representative of 0.8.5s effect or an anomaly, but it sure looks bad.

 

Playing them was already unpleasant before 0.8.5...

[Culiacan_Mexico]

Tier 6 CVs took a hit.  Not as bad as Tier 4, but it seem to have been a strong one.

 

 

 

 

class	name	players	total battles
				exp	damage caused
BB	W. Virginia 1941	14	221	1325	52911
BB	Arizona	23	355	1214	49236
BB	Izmail	941	14498	1234	48537
BB	Dunkerque	101	1865	1201	46771
BB	Fuso	489	8583	1145	42516
BB	Normandie	251	3920	1050	41808
BB	Prinz Eitel Friedrich	30	523	1079	41557
CV	Ryujo	369	6523	1171	39446
BB	Mutsu	21	309	1152	39414
BB	Warspite	100	1577	1142	38556
BB	Queen Elizabeth	229	3750	1041	38458
BB	New Mexico	665	11632	1091	37015
CV	Furious	277	4529	1121	36986
BB	Bayern	791	14335	1047	34862
CV	Ranger	448	8007	1084	33315

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

Tier 10.  I think it would be hard to argue that CVs at this tier need another major nerf.

 

 

		EXP	Damage	Kills
BB	Bourgogne	1980	114768	1.2
CA	Stalingrad	1933	100505	1.04
BB	Kremlin	1920	99555	1.09
BB	Conqueror	1575	98265	0.76
CA	Henri IV	1669	88381	0.83
BB	Republique	1498	87015	0.81
CA	Yoshino	1579	87007	0.77
BB	Yamato	1729	86437	0.76
CV	Hakuryu	1847	78215	0.94
BB	Grosser Kurfuerst	1542	77699	0.75
CA	Zao	1536	77297	0.74
BB	Montana	1588	77264	0.75
CV	Audacious	1824	77123	0.9
CA	Moskva	1610	74707	0.67
CV	Midway	1768	73154	0.84
CA	Worcester	1592	71838	0.77
CA	Des Moines	1683	70520	0.8
CA	Hindenburg	1523	70065	0.61
DD	Khabarovsk	1648	69205	0.81
CA	Salem	1377	67716	0.69
CA	Minotaur	1595	67112	0.85
DD	Harugumo	1655	65112	0.87
DD	Daring	1712	58884	1.01
DD	Grozovoi	1593	50883	0.76
DD	Shimakaze	1457	49693	0.75
DD	Yueyang	1504	49237	0.65
DD	Gearing	1482	44305	0.66
DD	Z-52	1467	38034	0.61

[Sunleader]

@Culiacan_Mexico

I would Argue for it.

Because your Missing the Spotting which is arguably the Biggest Influence that CVs have on the Matches Outcome.

And in Spotting the CVs are still absolute Top.

 

But before that.

Where is T8 ? ^^

[Culiacan_Mexico]

5 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

@Culiacan_Mexico

I would Argue for it.

Because your Missing the Spotting which is arguably the Biggest Influence that CVs have on the Matches Outcome.

And in Spotting the CVs are still absolute Top.

 

But before that.

Where is T8 ? ^^

Some adjustment could easily be needed, such as CV ability to effect DDs.  But wouldn't this be considered more a minor balancing issues?

[Culiacan_Mexico]

Tier 8. Premium ships are indicated with a P.  Graf Zeppelin wasn't Op in 0.8.4, not suprisingly it still isn't.

 

 

 

			EXP	Damage	Kills
BB	P	Massachusetts B	1624	67203	0.94
CV	P	Saipan	1708	63014	0.93
BB		Vladivostok	1657	62246	0.82
BB	P	Massachusetts	1561	61979	0.81
BB	P	Lenin	1558	57068	0.74
CV	P	Enterprise	1759	55081	0.89
CV	P	Kaga	1556	54493	0.69
BB		Richelieu	1266	52694	0.62
CV		Lexington	1463	51963	0.71
BB		Monarch	1302	50520	0.52
BB	P	Roma	1352	50481	0.63
BB	P	Tirpitz B	1304	50205	0.56
BB	P	Alabama	1407	49834	0.59
BB	P	Gascogne	1383	49749	0.57
CV		Shokaku	1525	49391	0.72
BB		Amagi	1299	48408	0.57
CV	P	Graf Zeppelin	1466	47469	0.68
CV		Implacable	1474	47290	0.65
BB	P	Vanguard	1214	47008	0.39
BB		North Carolina	1257	45435	0.51
BB	P	Tirpitz	1330	45292	0.54
BB	P	Kii	1276	45073	0.53
BB		Bismarck	1259	43523	0.5

[Culiacan_Mexico]

Lower Tier overall.  It would seem that BBs received the most benefits with regards to 0.8.5 at lower Tiers. 

 

 

name	class	average of rates
		exp	damage caused	warship destroyed	aircraft destoryed	base capture	base defense	spot damage
BB	Lower Tier	988	37509	0.79	2.1	3.88	5.84	8693
CA	Lower Tier	859	20571	0.67	0.96	4.72	7.14	6423
CV	Lower Tier	915	29027	0.6	2.71	0.65	11.81	22484
DD	Lower Tier	865	20360	0.74	0.71	16.94	4.27	10550

[Sunleader]

3 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Some adjustment could easily be needed, such as CV ability to effect DDs.  But wouldn't this be considered more a minor balancing issues?

 

Well.

That Depends on the Personal Preference I guess.

CVs currently do Twice as much Spotting as Second Placed Spotter which is DDs.

 

 

Now this is just my Personal opinion of course.

 

But the Importand Parts of the Match which Influence the Result in order Importance.

 

Are Capturing Points,

Spotting Damage,

Killing Blows,

Personal Damage,

Defending Capture Points,

 

 

DDs due to being the Top Class for Capturing Points is not Performing too well in the other Categories.

Thats Balanced in my Eyes. Because Capturing Points is one of the Things that will Really Win you Games more often than anything else.

With the 20 Minute Time Limit. Games often End by Points instead of Total Annihilation.

DDs so far also held the Spotting Damage. Because they were the only Class that was Capable of effectively Spotting Enemy Ships without being Detected and thus Susceptible to Fire themselves.

 

Cruisers do a bit of Everything. But dont Excel in anything.

Which is also Fairly Balanced in my Eyes.

 

BBs are the Primary Source of Damage and also the Primary Damage Dealers and Kill Dealers.

And thats also Pretty Balanced. Because in everything else they pretty much Suck.

With a BB the only way to Capture a Point is by Suiciding into it or by Conquering it from the Enemy Team at which Point it becomes Irrelevant because the Enemy Team was Defeated.

And the only thing you Spot is Enemies that are Firing at you.....

 

CVs however. Became the Primary Damage Dealer. At the same time being the Primary Spotter. And also being the Class being able to Finish Enemies Off Reliably.

They basicly became the Top of the Board in way too much Categories.

 

 

 

Lately CVs have lost the Spot as Top Damage Dealers again.

But they are Still Upper Class here.

They have Remained Capable of Landing the Fatal Blows.

And they have Easily Remained the Top Spotter.

 

 

 

To Balance CVs we would thus need to Bring them down to the level of other Classes.

DDs Pay for their Spotting and Capturing Ability by having a very low Average Damage Compared to the other Clases. And also by having less Chances to land Fatal Blows.

Now DDs however do have the Capturing Ability. So Nerfing CVs so far that their Spotting and Average Damage in on par with DDs. Would not be Fair.

But their Spotting being Twice that of DDs, Their Ability to Land Fatal Blows being very High and them being Strong Damage Dealers. Is clearly way too much.

 

 

And Well.

Either the Damage Output Needs to be Nerfed Down to DD Levels. (Roughly 30%)

Thus CVs being the Top Spotter Class while DDs are Relegated to mainly Capturing Points.

Or the Spotting needs to be Halved to come back to DD Levels. So DDs and CVs Share the Spotting. But DDs can Capture Points and CVs Deal more Damage.

 

 

I would not Consider any of these Actions a Minor Adjustment to be Honest.

These are Pretty Major things in my Eyes :)

[COPlUM]

Having played with the rework for about 2 weeks now this is my take on it from a DD main perspective :

 

T5-T6-T7 is mostly unplayable for a DD when there's T6 or hell even T8 CV's, there simply aren't DD's with AA worth mentioning at those tiers, planes crap on you and permaspot you, I tried staying with cruisers as is recommended frequently but i'm fairly certain it's advice from someone who's never played a DD in a CV match, a DD hugging cruisers isn't doing anything. Sure, he'll survive the planes, but also contribute nothing to the match, he's effectively barred from playing for 30 minutes or however long the match lasts.

 

T8-T9-T10 DD's can crap on the planes and play a good game, but only if you take out DDs with good AA and spec them for AA (AFT/BFT/DefAA, so basically gunboat DDs)
Concealment DD's get crap on by planes across all tiers, wouldn't play a concealment DD anymore if you pay me, in fact I sold them all.

 

The way I deal with them is play my game with AA disabled, if planes get within range of mid-range AA, that's when you hit DefAA and watch the planes drop like flies, long range AA doesn't do anything because *apparently* there's a mechanic that lets them dodge it, all of it. You have to "trap" the planes in your medium -& short range AA by sailing around AA disabled and turn on DefAA when they are 3,5km from you.

 

They park their carriers in corners of maps so swatting 20 planes out of the sky once is typically enough of their time wasted to make them sod off, if they go after you again, simply abandon whatever you were doing in the battle, strafe the edge of the map and torp them, because if a carrier goes after you a second time after you dropped 20 planes, he intends to go after you the rest of the match, he doesn't care all his planes blew up in 5 seconds, he doesn't care that he's entirely useless, your match is ruined if he "wants you" - so screw your team, ruin your match and more importantly, ruin the CV's match. Leave the battle entirely, find him, torp him.

 

I'm fine with the carriers if I'm in one of my USN BB's or my German CA's, they're not game breaking in cruisers or BB's, simply annoying, the issue is between CV's & DD's, because if a CV wants to prevent a DD from playing the match, they can, at the expense of their own usefulness but many of them don't care. So captains, ditch your concealment DD's, spec gunboat/AA DD's, bait their planes, hit DefAA at 3.5km and if they try again, abandon the battle, find him, torp him, he won't leave you alone.

 

It's this or not play DD's at all, up to you.

[Sunleader]

32 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Lower Tier overall.  It would seem that BBs received the most benefits with regards to 0.8.5 at lower Tiers. 

 

 

name	class	average of rates
		exp	damage caused	warship destroyed	aircraft destoryed	base capture	base defense	spot damage
BB	Lower Tier	988	37509	0.79	2.1	3.88	5.84	8693
CA	Lower Tier	859	20571	0.67	0.96	4.72	7.14	6423
CV	Lower Tier	915	29027	0.6	2.71	0.65	11.81	22484
DD	Lower Tier	865	20360	0.74	0.71	16.94	4.27	10550

 

Which is also not exactly a Good thing.

Because the CVs took most of their Share from the DDs.

Reducing their Ability to Capture, Deal Damage, Land Fatal Blows AND do Spotting.

 

So for things to be Balanced. CVs would need to mostly receive Nerfs Benefitting DDs.

Not BBs.

BBs are Doing Pretty fine in General.

They have fairly low Influence on Matches.

But they are the Bulk Force of a Match which is a Deciding Factor in itself.

They really dont need a Bigger Share.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

4 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

To Balance CVs we...

I believe WG stated they wanted to adjust the CV vs DD balance some more, but...

 

If I may take some data out of context.  The number of 0.8.0 CVs players are not significantly higher than RTS players.  During the latest meeting in Russia a CC asked a very good question: which is more important CVs being balance or the number of player using them?  WG had no answer.

 

My personal believe is that 'balanced' 0.8.0 CV will lead to less players than RTS CV had.

 

 

 

		Players CVS
		07/15/17	07/14/18	07/13/19
CV	Higher Tier	1136	897	1212
CV	Lower Tier	1975	1235	1244

[B051LjKo]

56 minutes ago, Culiacan_Mexico said:

Tier 10.  I think it would be hard to argue that CVs at this tier need another major nerf.

No worries, it is coming. And again, you are missing the spotting. The most fun thing to do in this game. Who spots, needs to be nerfed. DDs do a lot of spotting as well, therefore, should not inflict damage in addition to spotting. 

 

Some players find it unpleasent and unbelievable that a spotter flying a plane can see more stuff then the one sailing in a boat.