CV Rework Discussion

[El2aZeR]

On a different note, Ark Royal uses T4 planes. While she does get fairly fast regen on her RFs (47s, 1s faster than Enterprise RFs) and DBs (56s, 4s faster than Enterprise TBs) her TBs, which are apparently her most effective weapon by far, have 81s regeneration (5s longer than Enterprise DBs). And no, she doesn't get big reserves either (14/9/14).

 

This ship is supposed to deal with T6 MM where the only options are getting up-tiered and getting up-tiered harder.

[B051LjKo]

Can someone explain to me how a single V can have a bigger impact on the game outcome than 5 BBs?

[artic_99]

Vor 7 Minuten, B051LjKo sagte:

Can someone explain to me how a single V can have a bigger impact on the game outcome than 5 BBs?

There is a reason why only one cv is allowed but unlimited BB's.........

[1MajorKoenig]

17 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Can someone explain to me how a single V can have a bigger impact on the game outcome than 5 BBs?

 

9 minutes ago, artic_99 said:

There is a reason why only one cv is allowed but unlimited BB's.........

 

With the right players anything is possible. It’s not uncommon to find one or more (best: a division) full HP BBs after the battles is fought and lost somewhere horribly out of position. Shouldn’t happen to a CV usually 

[DFens_666]

54 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Can someone explain to me how a single V can have a bigger impact on the game outcome than 5 BBs?

 

Is that a serious question? BBs are a very limited class on its own. Slow, sluggish and cant spot (almost).

And BB is one of the hardest class to actually have influence on the game (imo). Ofc you need BBs, they are the ones which prevent other BBs from doing what they want. The worst roflstomps are games, where all BBs from one side sit on one area and you get flanked both sides.

 

BBs are the easy class for a reason. You cant do much harm if you fail, as you have 4 other BBs as backup. But also means, having a good impact is harder. And you dont die that easily (usually, ofc some people manage to die within 3 mins aswell )

[xsmilingbanditx]

4 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Ok.

Then lets Fact Check.

 

Using the Data from WoWs Stats.  (You can see all T8 BBs/CVs by Selecting one and Checking the list further Down.)

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4181702352,Shokaku/

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4181669680,Bismarck/

 

We have a Total of 8 CVs. (Excluding Pre Rework CVs of Course)

I will Sort them by Damage.

From Top to Bottom they have 74k+63.6k+61.2k+60.6k+57.6k+56.5k+53.9k+53.3k

This Comes up to a Total of 480.7k Damage.

We Divide this by 8 because there is 8 CVs.

And we Come down to an Average Damage of 60.1k for Tier 8 CVs.

 

Now on the BB side we got a Total of 17 BBs (I am not Excluding the Limited BBs because it doesnt matter either way)

Again Sorted by Damage.

74.4k+64.4k+62.5k+62.4k+59.6k+58.6k+57.4k+56.2k+55.9k+54.8k+53.4k+53.4k+51.7k+51.1k+50.7k+48.3k+47.1k

This Comes up to a Total of 961.9k Damage.

We Divide this by 17 because there is 17 BBs.

And we Come down to an Average Damage of 56.6k

 

Fact Check Complete.

Oh wow...so you take the Average of the Average to calculate a new Average..even without the FACT that CV Average dmg numbers are bloated above and beyond because of the OP State before 8.4 - that handling of numbers makes me so sick and sorry for statistics all over the world that I'm outta here.

[KillStealBoss]

41 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

Slow, sluggish and cant spot (almost)

 

[KillStealBoss]

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

On a different note, Ark Royal uses T4 planes. While she does get fairly fast regen on her RFs (47s, 1s faster than Enterprise RFs) and DBs (56s, 4s faster than Enterprise TBs) her TBs, which are apparently her most effective weapon by far, have 81s regeneration (5s longer than Enterprise DBs). And no, she doesn't get big reserves either (14/9/14).

 

This ship is supposed to deal with T6 MM where the only options are getting up-tiered and getting up-tiered harder.

The rocket planes will be T5. But regardless it'll be hard CV to play.

[mcboernester]

honestly didn't know that. Made me go *sigh* again 

 

[El2aZeR]

@Saiyko and I did some training room tests with the Ark Royal. Results are as expected.

- Practically any T8 cruiser/BB will deplane you before you can shave off a significant amount of HP.

- Texas will deplane you before you can shave off a significant amount of HP. Texas also outturns you faster than you can adjust your attack angle.

- Floatplane fighters are gonna be the stuff of your nightmares.

- Same tier cruisers take quite a bit of damage from bombs and rockets. They're far too nimble to reliably hit with torps tho (assuming WASD) and you can't crossdrop either because Ark practically only gets one drop and her plane maneuverability is poor.

- Torps do pretty good alpha but are fairly difficult to get all on target if said target uses WASD

- Bombs deal absolutely no damage to T8 BBs. Literally no damage.

- Snipes by Enterprise players could become an issue on smaller maps. Ark Royal AA is sub-par against higher tier planes, her CAP is pitiful and, most importantly, she takes citadels from Enterprise AP DBs. An Enterprise can theoretically kill you with a single AB DB squad, I reckon its gonna take her two in most scenarios.

 

So unless you want a port queen, don't care about getting ed by MM or just want to get her for her historical significance, do not buy her in her current state.

(She's obviously still subject to change btw, no need to turn on your salt makers just yet.)

[KillStealBoss]

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

@Saiyko and I did some training room tests with the Ark Royal. Results are as expected.

- Practically any T8 cruiser/BB will deplane you before you can shave off a significant amount of HP.

- Texas will deplane you before you can shave off a significant amount of HP. Texas also outturns you faster than you can adjust your attack angle.

- Floatplane fighters are gonna be the stuff of your nightmares.

- Same tier cruisers take quite a bit of damage from bombs and rockets. They're far too nimble to reliably hit with torps tho (assuming WASD) and you can't crossdrop either because Ark practically only gets one drop and her plane maneuverability is poor.

- Torps do pretty good alpha but are fairly difficult to get all on target if said target uses WASD

- Bombs deal absolutely no damage to T8 BBs. Literally no damage.

- Snipes by Enterprise players could become an issue on smaller maps. Ark Royal AA is sub-par against higher tier planes, her CAP is pitiful and, most importantly, she takes citadels from Enterprise AP DBs. An Enterprise can theoretically kill you with a single AB DB squad, I reckon its gonna take her two in most scenarios.

 

So unless you want a port queen, don't care about getting ed by MM or just want to get her for her historical significance, do not buy her in her current state.

(She's obviously still subject to change btw, no need to turn on your salt makers just yet.)

Indomitable was changed 5 times. We'll see how they change this one. 

[Sunleader]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

@Saiyko and I did some training room tests with the Ark Royal. Results are as expected.

- Practically any T8 cruiser/BB will deplane you before you can shave off a significant amount of HP.

- Texas will deplane you before you can shave off a significant amount of HP. Texas also outturns you faster than you can adjust your attack angle.

- Floatplane fighters are gonna be the stuff of your nightmares.

- Same tier cruisers take quite a bit of damage from bombs and rockets. They're far too nimble to reliably hit with torps tho (assuming WASD) and you can't crossdrop either because Ark practically only gets one drop and her plane maneuverability is poor.

- Torps do pretty good alpha but are fairly difficult to get all on target if said target uses WASD

- Bombs deal absolutely no damage to T8 BBs. Literally no damage.

- Snipes by Enterprise players could become an issue on smaller maps. Ark Royal AA is sub-par against higher tier planes, her CAP is pitiful and, most importantly, she takes citadels from Enterprise AP DBs. An Enterprise can theoretically kill you with a single AB DB squad, I reckon its gonna take her two in most scenarios.

 

So unless you want a port queen, don't care about getting ed by MM or just want to get her for her historical significance, do not buy her in her current state.

(She's obviously still subject to change btw, no need to turn on your salt makers just yet.)

 

I guess we wont be Seeing this CV Released anytime soon then ^^

[159Hunter]

49 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

Indomitable was changed 5 times. We'll see how they change this one. 

Now that we're on the subject of this Indomitable. Is there any news on a release of this ship?

[KillStealBoss]

1 minute ago, 159Hunter said:

Now that we're on the subject of this Indomitable. Is there any news on a release of this ship?

still waiting

[B051LjKo]

9 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Is that a serious question? BBs are a very limited class on its own. Slow, sluggish and cant spot (almost).

Slow? Ha? 30 knots is normal, faster ones go 33, Bourgogne cant catch up to 38, faster than some DDs in the game. And spotting, well, Missouri has a radar. If Yamato is slow and sluggish, it doesn't mean all of them are.

9 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

And BB is one of the hardest class to actually have influence on the game (imo). Ofc you need BBs, they are the ones which prevent other BBs from doing what they want. The worst roflstomps are games, where all BBs from one side sit on one area and you get flanked both sides.

 

BBs are the easy class for a reason. You cant do much harm if you fail, as you have 4 other BBs as backup. But also means, having a good impact is harder. And you dont die that easily (usually, ofc some people manage to die within 3 mins aswell )

I was referring to the class, not individual ships. If you have a cap of 5 per game for one class, and cap o 1 for the other, it is reasonable to assume that the class of 1 allowed will be able to outperform the class where 5 are allowed. Don't you think? 

[159Hunter]

9 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Slow? Ha? 30 knots is normal, faster ones go 33, Bourgogne cant catch up to 38, faster than some DDs in the game. And spotting, well, Missouri has a radar. If Yamato is slow and sluggish, it doesn't mean all of them are.

Keyword in @DFens_666 text you quoted being sluggish.  As indeed, tier X BB can hardly be called slow, their topspeeds are all in the same order of magnitude as slower cruisers and DDs.

9 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

I was referring to the class, not individual ships. If you have a cap of 5 per game for one class, and cap o 1 for the other, it is reasonable to assume that the class of 1 allowed will be able to outperform the class where 5 are allowed. Don't you think? 

It's more about impact on a match, than outperforming.

And CVs have way more impact than BBs. The numbers I linked you a few days ago show this in 0.8.5. And the current numbers will show the same thing, with one change: now avg BB dmg will be higher than avg CV dmg. 

However, the spotting of CVs is still second to none ( and no other class even comes close ). Sot CVs still have a huge impact on a game.

[KillStealBoss]

23 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Slow? Ha? 30 knots is normal, faster ones go 33, Bourgogne cant catch up to 38, faster than some DDs in the game. And spotting, well, Missouri has a radar. If Yamato is slow and sluggish, it doesn't mean all of them are

Well even the 30knt one are sluggish and lose a lot of speed while turning. 

27 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

I was referring to the class, not individual ships. If you have a cap of 5 per game for one class, and cap o 1 for the other, it is reasonable to assume that the class of 1 allowed will be able to outperform the class where 5 are allowed. Don't you think?

[AndyHill]

9 hours ago, mcboernester said:

honestly didn't know that. Made me go *sigh* again 

I was almost certain WG just forgot that torp plane heal existed when they changed the AAA in the latest patch. Nothing almost about it anymore.

[Sunleader]

7 minutes ago, AndyHill said:

I was almost certain WG just forgot that torp plane heal existed when they changed the AAA in the latest patch. Nothing almost about it anymore.

 

I dont get what Problem People got with the Heal.

Its still a Heal that can Heal when you got hit by Heavy AA.

And it can still be used to Tank a Worcester for Several Seconds without losing a Plane...

[1MajorKoenig]

11 hours ago, mcboernester said:

honestly didn't know that. Made me go *sigh* again 

 

 

Another masterpiece indeed

 

 

16 hours ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Is that a serious question? BBs are a very limited class on its own. Slow, sluggish and cant spot (almost).

And BB is one of the hardest class to actually have influence on the game (imo). Ofc you need BBs, they are the ones which prevent other BBs from doing what they want. The worst roflstomps are games, where all BBs from one side sit on one area and you get flanked both sides.

 

BBs are the easy class for a reason. You cant do much harm if you fail, as you have 4 other BBs as backup. But also means, having a good impact is harder. And you dont die that easily (usually, ofc some people manage to die within 3 mins aswell )

 

BB little influence...? 

 

Not even considering they usually appear in dozens it’s the DDs and their BBs projecting influence? Or was it some strange joke I didn’t catch?

 

 

15 hours ago, xsmilingbanditx said:

Oh wow...so you take the Average of the Average to calculate a new Average..even without the FACT that CV Average dmg numbers are bloated above and beyond because of the OP State before 8.4 - that handling of numbers makes me so sick and sorry for statistics all over the world that I'm outta here.

 

 

(numbers can be tricky when paired with lack of brain cells)

[KillStealBoss]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

I dont get what Problem People got with the Heal.

Its still a Heal that can Heal when you got hit by Heavy AA.

And it can still be used to Tank a Worcester for Several Seconds without losing a Plane...

They mean that it's useless now.

[Woof_for_Me]

Vor 21 Minuten, MacArthur92 sagte:

They mean that it's useless now.

Hello.

 

The heal as i noticed has a certain HPS (health per second) value which when active combats the DPS (damage per second) value of the AA ship when active.

It can grant immunity for the heals duration if the DPS is lower then the HPS and reduces the plane health reduction if the DPS is higher by the HPS value so the heal is still working.

It will not prevent plane losses if the AA DPS is significantly higher than the HPS.

 

[Sunleader]

25 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

They mean that it's useless now.

 

5 minutes ago, Rose_Dikinson said:

Hello.

 

The heal as i noticed has a certain HPS (health per second) value which when active combats the DPS (damage per second) value of the AA ship when active.

It can grant immunity for the heals duration if the DPS is lower then the HPS and reduces the plane health reduction if the DPS is higher by the HPS value so the heal is still working.

It will not prevent plane losses if the AA DPS is significantly higher than the HPS.

 

 

Correct.

But even if the DPS is Significantly Higher than the Heal the Plane against the Damage thus making that one Plane Last far longer and thus Prevent the Additional Losses you would take otherwise.

Losing 0 Instead of 2-3 Aircraft is Clearly useful. And Losing 1-2 Aircraft Instead of 6-8 is even more Useful.

 

If anyone says that a Few Seconds of Immunity or Almost Immunity to AA Fire is useless.  Then Sorry but hes got no Idea about CV Gameplay.

 

 

[KillStealBoss]

6 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

 

Correct.

But even if the DPS is Significantly Higher than the Heal the Plane against the Damage thus making that one Plane Last far longer and thus Prevent the Additional Losses you would take otherwise.

Losing 0 Instead of 2-3 Aircraft is Clearly useful. And Losing 1-2 Aircraft Instead of 6-8 is even more Useful.

 

If anyone says that a Few Seconds of Immunity or Almost Immunity to AA Fire is useless.  Then Sorry but hes got no Idea about CV Gameplay.

 

 

To make it still useful they need to extend the time of its activity. Not for too long but a bit more. 

[Sunleader]

9 minutes ago, MacArthur92 said:

To make it still useful they need to extend the time of its activity. Not for too long but a bit more. 

 

I dont think it needs that really.

Since 5 Seconds are Enough to Cross into Pretty much any Ships Range and Drop.

 

But I wont Mind unless it gets Ridiculous again.

I mean before 0.8.5 this Skill was Basicly like.

"Oh there is a Blob of 8 Ships here with Decent AA ? Who Cares I will just Heal Through it and Bomb them anyways...)

 

And we Seriously dont need that again.