CV Rework Discussion

[El2aZeR]

2 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

It isn’t dishonest - there is more useful and less useful damage. But it is dishonest to present screwed averages that tell absolutely Nothing to “prove” CVs are OP.

 

According to the KPM statistic CVs also deal the most effective damage in the game. To say your narrative doesn't hold up would be an understatement.

 

1 minute ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

Balancing is about averages not a few exceptions 

 

No, balancing is about providing equal opportunity to all contestants, thus making skill the deciding factor on match outcome.

That means the human factor is actually completely irrelevant to balance.

[1MajorKoenig]

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

According to the KPM statistic CVs also deal the most effective damage in the game. To say your narrative doesn't hold up would be an understatement.

 

I would be curious to see this statistics as I am not aware it is captured when damage is inflicted.

 

 

10 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

No, balancing is about providing equal opportunity to all contestants, thus making skill the deciding factor on match outcome.

That means the human factor is actually completely irrelevant to balance.

 

That is simply not possible as you never know how the players will use or even misuse mechanics. Of course players comes into the mix. Or are you measuring performance without the players?

[159Hunter]

3 hours ago, MadnerKami said:

Now bring  and compare stats, when battleships/cruisers/destroyers survive the vast majority of battles to the end. Your "stats" and your reading of them are deeply flawed, because you disregard the single most important stat of your own chart. If BBs/cruisers/DDs had an almost 80% survival rate, what do you think their stats would look like?

Erm, maybe because CVs aren't surface warfare ships and the three other classes are. So those three  are actually designed around shooting and getting shot at whilst CVs aren't.

So the one not knowing how to read the stats is you.

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Dear Mr. @Sunleader! While you are fortunately on my igno list for a while so I won’t bother with your walls of content-free text I feel I need to call you out on this one.

 

Either you don’t understand the numbers you are throwing around or you are straight up lying. I am not even sure what is worse.

 

Higher tiers in maple Syrup is T7+. As you might know there are no T7+9 CVs so you are comparing T8 with T7+T8 and T10 with T9+10. Naturally these numbers are therefore inflated and have literally ZERO added value or information because of that. This comparison can’t be used for anything else then cleaning a dark place where the sun never shines.

 

Plus: CV damage is for a significant part done after the game is already decided - unfortunately we don’t have the ratio available yet. And I hope I don’t need to explain that the XP figure is completely irrelevant as the modifiers are pulled out of blue air by WG.

 

Same with lower tiers btw but the CV numbers there are already pitiful.

 

SO: for the love of god, stop spreading your nonsense please. 

 

thx

 

1.

Thats Irrelevant.

Because Tier 7 Ships in exchange have the Advantage of going down to Tier 5 and being Unable to Meet Tier 10s.

So have the T9s which can meet T7s.

In Fact I would consider this an Advantage rather than a Disadvantage compared to the CVs which got T8 which is the Worst Position in MM.

 

We also Compared Single Tiers Stats in the Past. And these were not really Different.

In Fact if I remember Right. The Tier 8 CVs actually Beat the other Classes in Average Damage as well.

Meaning that CVs in these Stats were even Further above the other Classes.

 

2.

Thats the Biggest Bullcrab Claim I heard in a While.

CVs are the Top Go To Class which can Immediately Inflict Significant Damage on Priority Targets.

Most other Ships can only Deal Damage based on what actually Shows up for them.

They dont have much Influence on what they Damage because they only have a very Limited Range of Targets to Attack.

Thanks to that. Most other Classes Scoring Match Deciding Damage is very Random.

CVs at the same Time are the Class which can Deal Match Deciding Damage right away.

 

Then again.

I have no Doubt that your Simply Dishonest here.

I dont think your so Clueless as to Ignore these Facts.

 

3.

Oh. So CVs being at the Top of only Half of all Categories they are Pitiful.

Very Funny.

If CVs Stats in lower Tier Are Pitiful.

Then basicly all other Classes Stats are Pitiful on both Lower and Higher Tier.

Because no other Class is Topping the Scores in 5 Categories out of 10 Categories...

 

 

 

So Yeah.

Pls Stop with the Strawmans Arguments.

You can Try to Weasel Out of things all you want.

But I am not Impressed by that.

If you think that CV Stats in T8 or T10 Seperately are Worse.

Then how about you Provide the Statistics and Prove it instead of throwing out Stawmans here ? :)

[CptBarney]

Why does this thead atm seem more like a place to argue than to talk about the fat things that spam noisy airplanes? hmmm?

 

[anonym_WQDIB9XrzbSp]

2 minutes ago, CptBarney said:

Why does this thead atm seem more like a place to argue than to talk about the fat things that spam noisy airplanes? hmmm?

 

Because  the same 1% of active users are responsible for 60% of all posts as if repeatedly shouting the same confirmation-bias-laden drivel, from personal perspectives, with stats skewed to suit your stance is somehow going to change things.

 

As we nerf DD torps, fire chance, smoke usage and concealment into the ground along with CV's the game will eventually come to suit the largest group of toddlers consumed with incandescent rage at not being immune to attack..... BBabies.

 

This thread likely has absolutely zero presence on WG's radar, there's nothing in here that contributes, just regurgitated entrenched opinions.

[El2aZeR]

17 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

I would be curious to see this statistics as I am not aware it is captured when damage is inflicted.

 

Filter for it on wows-numbers?

The only thing that rivals CVs are incredibly strong/limited playerbase premiums. And a bit of analysis will also reveal why that is. In fact said premiums don't scale nearly as well as CVs once you start filtering for skill too.

 

22 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

That is simply not possible as you never know how the players will use or even misuse mechanics. Of course players comes into the mix. Or are you measuring performance without the players?

 

Game mechanics are designed for an intended purpose. If players manage to find something that isn't that, it is up to the devs to decide whether to keep it or not. A lot of them can also be anticipated if you actually know your game.

If players are using the mechanic to its intended purpose then there is no need for further adjustment assuming it isn't too strong or too weak. How to determine that depends on the skill level you desire for it. This is all done without consideration of average player skill.

[B051LjKo]

2 hours ago, Sunleader said:

No other Ship Class. Has even Remotely as much Influence on the Outcome of a Match as the CV.

And I dont mean this on a Per Player Basis. I mean it as The Single T10 CV. Having more Influence than the 4-5 BBs in his Team Combined.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

 

I cannot agree with you more, those 4-5 battleship will make on average how much? A meager 450 000 of useless fire, ap and citatel damage. Nice number but don't really mean anything. No influence on game outcome what so ever. On the other hand, the CV will deliver 80K of inferno damage, resolving the game where BBs failed.

 

[1MajorKoenig]

42 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Thats Irrelevant.

Because Tier 7 Ships in exchange have the Advantage of going down to Tier 5 and being Unable to Meet Tier 10s.

 

I am not sure if you are serious about this or if you just have an incredible boring sense of humour. The numbers are averages and averages tend to get higher throughout the tiers. You are comparing some T7 ships to T8 ships and say: „look how OP these T8 ships are compare to the T7 ships! They have higher average damage!” Comparing these adds absolutely NO value to the discussion whatsoever. It is just a waste of time and server space (and your life time for that matter but that is obviously your own business).

 

I am not interested in your pointless and contentfree texts but I had to point out what a bull- nonsense you post here for the others just in case someone doesn’t notice himself

 

So long 

[1MajorKoenig]

30 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Game mechanics are designed for an intended purpose. If players manage to find something that isn't that, it is up to the devs to decide whether to keep it or not. A lot of them can also be anticipated if you actually know your game.

If players are using the mechanic to its intended purpose then there is no need for further adjustment assuming it isn't too strong or too weak. How to determine that depends on the skill level you desire for it. This is all done without consideration of average player skill.

 

Of course mechanics are designed with something in mind.

 

But balancing is done on actual results not on potential.

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

25 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

The only thing that rivals CVs are incredibly strong/limited playerbase premiums. And a bit of analysis will also reveal why that is. In fact said premiums don't scale nearly as well as CVs once you start filtering for skill too.

 

49 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

In Fact if I remember Right. The Tier 8 CVs actually Beat the other Classes in Average Damage as well.

Both Statments total BS sorry but what are you smoking? Can i have that aswell. FACT check before you type some stuff that makes no sense.

T8 CV are averaging around amagi NC except kaga and enterprise but currently vladi and Massachutes (the are not premiums that no one has access to so calling BS on that) Are currently the highest Average DMG dealers in T8.

 

So i dont know where you get the numbers but hey how about before you say something about WOWS-numbers go check yourself first.

Since the states are already changing.

 

[El2aZeR]

13 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

currently vladi and Massachutes (the are not premiums that no one has access to so calling BS on that)

 

Are you for real?

Also Vladi may as well count as one considering its the shiny new thing currently.

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

Just now, El2aZeR said:

Are you for real?

Also Vladi may as well count as one considering its the shiny new thing currently.

 

44 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

he only thing that rivals CVs are incredibly strong/limited playerbase premiums.

i never heard that Masachusets is limited for playerbase? the same is even that the B variant is even stronger but hey 

[El2aZeR]

Just now, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

i never heard that Masachusets is limited for playerbase? the same is even that the B variant is even stronger but hey 

 

Jesus F Christ...

Guys, should I even grace this with an answer? I feel like I've hit my quota for incompetence today.

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

2 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

Guys, should I even grace this with an answer? I feel like I've hit my quota for incompetence today.

Well to be honest i don't know why you trying to say that but ok. For me Limited Premium ships are like kutuzov or yukikaze etc....

and not a premium ships that is already for purchase for around 1-2 Years in the premium ship. That means that pretty much everyone can buy that ship.

 

I emphasize that you said limited premium ships. If you talking about general Premium ships fine but not limited.

[El2aZeR]

8 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

That means that pretty much everyone can buy that ship.

 

 

Yeah, definitely hit my quota.

@1MajorKoenig maybe you're kind enough to explain? Even you realize and won't deny the influence on stats when the ship in question is a PREMIUM ship, right? Especially one that is as ezmodo as the Massa?

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

11 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

Well to be honest i don't know why you trying to say that but ok. For me Limited Premium ships are like kutuzov or yukikaze etc....

and not a premium ships that is already for purchase for around 1-2 Years in the premium ship. That means that pretty much everyone can buy that ship.

 

I emphasize that you said limited premium ships. If you talking about general Premium ships fine but not limited.

Strong/limited to me reads strong and or limited.

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

Well before more missunderstand will occure i will just post this pic that is self explanatory.

 

To be honest this says everything. IF you still say that CV's are OP then please wash your eyes. 

IF you say Saipan etc... then why do you not include all the other premium ships.

 

[El2aZeR]

3 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

To be honest this says everything. IF you still say that CV's are OP then please wash your eyes. 

IF you say Saipan etc... then why do you not include all the other premium ships.

 

That picture says nothing. Absolutely nothing. In fact it is a gross misrepresentation of CV potential power and as such a straight up lie.

Why? Go through the previous pages of this thread and find out. I'm not gonna bother to explain anymore.

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

9 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

In fact it is a gross misrepresentation of CV potential power and as such a straight up lie.

Okay so stats are not everything alright. We can agree that CV have a high influence on the outcome of the match. 

Well now we get more and more AA buff's

and when ships like Colbert, Smolensk and Friesland will get here have fun as a CV player ;)

to be honest in this regard lets just remove CV entirly since there is no point in arguing.

 

How many times did i get into a match with midway against a full AA enemies Ship comp and the had a lemmingtrain. Guess how much influence i had in that game. You guessed it NON!

How much influence do i have against a team with not many AA ships. Is again pretty big but there comes the big underlying problem that i have all that whining bs.

The CV's influence is relying on you getting into a Favorable ship match up for you. If MM say's no or RNG say's no to you then yeah you maybe will hit 50k dmg and maybe stalk some DD's that's it.

Great game. While all other classes are not that influenced by the MM in regards of there potential. ( if you start talking about radar then stop right there and yes i know what you mean in regards of DD deletion)

 

 

[El2aZeR]

9 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

Well now we get more and more AA buff's

and when ships like Colbert, Smolensk and Friesland will get here have fun as a CV player ;)

 

The former two have meh AA at best while the latter suffers from overreliance on DFAA and has two extremely crippling weaknesses when it comes to air defense, one of which she shares with all other AA DDs.

How about you take your own advice and go inform yourself before spouting nonsense?

 

9 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

The CV's influence is relying on you getting into a Favorable ship match up for you. If MM say's no or RNG say's no to you then yeah you maybe will hit 50k dmg and maybe stalk some DD's that's it.

 

I can assure you that the issue lies with you and not CVs.

So perhaps follow the advice CV players have been condescendingly spouting to surface ship players ever since 0.8.0 and git gud?

 

[Sunleader]

2 hours ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

 

Both Statments total BS sorry but what are you smoking? Can i have that aswell. FACT check before you type some stuff that makes no sense.

T8 CV are averaging around amagi NC except kaga and enterprise but currently vladi and Massachutes (the are not premiums that no one has access to so calling BS on that) Are currently the highest Average DMG dealers in T8.

 

So i dont know where you get the numbers but hey how about before you say something about WOWS-numbers go check yourself first.

Since the states are already changing.

 

 

Ok.

Then lets Fact Check.

 

Using the Data from WoWs Stats.  (You can see all T8 BBs/CVs by Selecting one and Checking the list further Down.)

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4181702352,Shokaku/

https://wows-numbers.com/ship/4181669680,Bismarck/

 

We have a Total of 8 CVs. (Excluding Pre Rework CVs of Course)

I will Sort them by Damage.

From Top to Bottom they have 74k+63.6k+61.2k+60.6k+57.6k+56.5k+53.9k+53.3k

This Comes up to a Total of 480.7k Damage.

We Divide this by 8 because there is 8 CVs.

And we Come down to an Average Damage of 60.1k for Tier 8 CVs.

 

Now on the BB side we got a Total of 17 BBs (I am not Excluding the Limited BBs because it doesnt matter either way)

Again Sorted by Damage.

74.4k+64.4k+62.5k+62.4k+59.6k+58.6k+57.4k+56.2k+55.9k+54.8k+53.4k+53.4k+51.7k+51.1k+50.7k+48.3k+47.1k

This Comes up to a Total of 961.9k Damage.

We Divide this by 17 because there is 17 BBs.

And we Come down to an Average Damage of 56.6k

 

Fact Check Complete.

Tier 8 CVs have higher Average Damage than Tier 8 BBs.

 

 

Maybe your the one who should now and then Fact Check things before throwing a Tantrum and making Estimates of Peoples Intelligence.

 

 

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

 

Yeah, definitely hit my quota.

@1MajorKoenig maybe you're kind enough to explain? Even you realize and won't deny the influence on stats when the ship in question is a PREMIUM ship, right? Especially one that is as ezmodo as the Massa?

 

Dont bother.

Last Time I tried to explain this Concept to the CV Faction. They didnt even Understand why I made 2 Seperate Calculations for T10 BBs.

One with the Bourgogne and one without it.

 

I mean how could People Possibly Realize that maybe a T10 Ship available only for Players that were able to Provde a Pretty Large amount of Steel that is only Earned in Ranked Battles and Rare Events.

Would possibly have better Average Statistics than the Standard TechTree Ships...

[CaptainOkita]

3 hours ago, CptBarney said:

Why does this thead atm seem more like a place to argue than to talk about the fat things that spam noisy airplanes? hmmm?

 

Cute pic. We may as well make this a moe thread as WG isn't reading anyway.

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

1 hour ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

 

The CV's influence is relying on you getting into a Favorable ship match up for you. If MM say's no or RNG say's no to you then yeah you maybe will hit 50k dmg and maybe stalk some DD's that's it.

Great game. While all other classes are not that influenced by the MM in regards of there potential. ( if you start talking about radar then stop right there and yes i know what you mean in regards of DD deletion)

 

 

I can assure you that for most just above average players like me, MM and RNG influences my potential in a lot of ships. What surprises me in most CV complaints post 0.8.4 is the sense of entitlement. The rework is problematic in it's core design, the solution is not to make CV's easy to play or able to influence rounds with impunity, as WG hopefully has seen in their spreadshit. It's fine that such forceful influence should only be possible for unicums.

[KillStealBoss]

4 hours ago, CptBarney said:

Why does this thead atm seem more like a place to argue than to talk about the fat things that spam noisy airplanes? hmmm?

 

Arguing about stats and numbers that's always the thing here on this forum.