CV Rework Discussion

[Caughtintherain]

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Feels like a diversion strategy, doesn't it? 

 

El2aZeR mate, it's doomsday, the sky is burning and the moon is descending to devour our souls, it's not about CVs anymore. If we have more than ashes to fight over after this NTC debacle we can get back to the eternal crusade of removing CVs from the game.

[B051LjKo]

4 hours ago, Sunleader said:

With NTC Announced this Topic is suddenly entirely irrelevant....

 

Who tought WG would find something that could get the Community even more up in arms than the CV Rework...

Not really. NTC will be a great improvement to the game. I always thought that the skill gap between newbies and sealclubbers was just not enough. Now when newbies face not only much more experienced players with maxed captains and full set of equipment, but also with new unique upgrades that are not even available to them, they will find the grind more changeling and  enjoyable.

[CaptainOkita]

3 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Feels like a diversion strategy, doesn't it? 

CV rework itself imo was a diversion from the fact the devs have no clue what to do with the game. All this frustration on both sides is basically us playing the same thing from alpha. Instead of expanding the game they opted to play the numbers game like this dota or lol. Even those introduce new content on a far better basis.

 

I'm calling it that NTC will let upgraded action cv lulstomp everyone but i for one am done. Prework grind and post rework grind with half the time playing as satan incarnate in the eyes of crying salty potatos is not my cup of tea ( albeit i like salty snacks). Theres better games out there for a ship/plane fan and they dont take giant expletives on you as rapid fire as WG is doing now.

[leeuwbart]

12 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Yes I am sure about that, andI am not spreading false information It is not that ifficult to check the data on wows numbers.

 

It is clear that Midway with its 79 622 average damage and 47,6 % win rate is outperforming all Tier X BBs. Bourgogne is sitting at 59.59% winrate, and only 123 735 of useless burst AP damage Just tu highlight how inferior BBs are to CVs in new meta and general game impact.

I am sorry to ask but you are saying that the midway outperforms the bbs in your list. Your list however shows that the win rate and average damage are below the g kurfurst which shows as lowest average damage and the Yamato with the lowest win rate. 

How does your evidence match up with your conclusion if your evidence shows the opposite? 

As far as i can see averagely the bbs in the list, which is longer than the cv list, are doing better than the CVS on your cv list

[CaptainOkita]

5 minutes ago, leeuwbart said:

I am sorry to ask but you are saying that the midway outperforms the bbs in your list. Your list however shows that the win rate and average damage are below the g kurfurst which shows as lowest average damage and the Yamato with the lowest win rate. 

How does your evidence match up with your conclusion if your evidence shows the opposite? 

As far as i can see averagely the bbs in the list, which is longer than the cv list, are doing better than the CVS on your cv list

Anti cv grievences are feelings. They feel its overpowered they feel helpless etc.

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, CaptainOkita said:

CV rework itself imo was a diversion from the fact the devs have no clue what to do with the game.

 

Nah, if anything the rework is proof that they have no idea what the  they're doing. 

[Panocek]

59 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Nah, if anything the rework is proof that they have no idea what the  they're doing. 

Or WG dev team run out of ships/ideas and they try to come up with *something* so boss will stop spanking everyone with quarterly financial report showing not-as-high increase in profits as expected compared to older years

[DFens_666]

18 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

Yes I am sure about that, andI am not spreading false information It is not that ifficult to check the data on wows numbers.

 

It is clear that Midway with its 79 622 average damage and 47,6 % win rate is outperforming all Tier X BBs. Bourgogne is sitting at 59.59% winrate, and only 123 735 of useless burst AP damage Just tu highlight how inferior BBs are to CVs in new meta and general game impact.

 

...

How many TX CVs are out there? (mind you, the 3rd was introduced at a later point anyway). How likely is it, that a Midway encounters another Midway? What will the Midway WR be in that scenario?

How many Bourgognes do you see in random battles? Is it likely, that a Bourgogne is matched against another Bourgogne all the time?

 

Answer those, clearly you should see, measuring by WR has no meaning.

 

Also, which players are most likely to own a Bourgogne?

This will show, why it has a higher average damage than others (doesnt mean i dont think it might actually be too strong). But Bourgogne is clearly not the benchmark for your average TX BB. Compared to every noob is in his Midway.

Top 10% Midway players look like this

Which is closer to the majority of the Bourgogne owners

[B051LjKo]

10 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

How many TX CVs are out there? (mind you, the 3rd was introduced at a later point anyway). How likely is it, that a Midway encounters another Midway? What will the Midway WR be in that scenario?

How many Bourgognes do you see in random battles? Is it likely, that a Bourgogne is matched against another Bourgogne all the time?

 

Answer those, clearly you should see, measuring by WR has no meaning.

 

Also, which players are most likely to own a Bourgogne?

This will show, why it has a higher average damage than others (doesnt mean i dont think it might actually be too strong). But Bourgogne is clearly not the benchmark for your average TX BB. Compared to every noob is in his Midway.

Top 10% Midway players look like this

Which is closer to the majority of the Bourgogne owners

It doesn't matter really, Bourgogne is outperforming his closest by a huge 23 % in averaga damage. Compared to GK it is even more scary, 53% higher average damage. And we are talking about Tier X, a lot of effort to get there. No noobs are sailing around with Tier X, (bad player is not necessarily a n00b). That said, as they do not see the need to nerf Bourgogne (or Stalingrad), and they keep nerfing the CVs, it must be that they see a real problem there.

[DFens_666]

7 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

It doesn't matter really, Bourgogne is outperforming his closest by a huge 23 % in averaga damage. Compared to GK it is even more scary, 53% higher average damage. And we are talking about Tier X, a lot of effort to get there. No noobs are sailing around with Tier X, (bad player is not necessarily a n00b). That said, as they do not see the need to nerf Bourgogne (or Stalingrad), and they keep nerfing the CVs, it must be that they see a real problem there. 

 

Those are not the same players in the Bourgogne or GK.

 

https://wows-numbers.com/de/player/537856692,Lasi__/

The worst player by average damage. Has more damage in Conq and Kremlin. Yamato, Repub and Monty have ~10% less damage than he has in his Bourgogne.

Everyone can have Silver TX BBs, not everyone has Bourgogne. Those 40% players will basicly never get one, as buying steel is basicly impossible. A select few will die their way to R1 often enough to get the required steel + maybe bought some from that XMas stuff + snowflakes. From CBs they wont get too much either.

 

Also, WG doesnt nerf premiums. I wont comment on nerfing CVs, otherwise ill get some people butthurt with it

[Mad_Dog_Dante]

32 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

No noobs are sailing around with Tier X, (bad player is not necessarily a n00b).

A noob is not necessarily a bad player but a bad player is always a noob. Tier X is infested with noobs, almost as much as tier 3 is. 

[mariouus]

40 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

It doesn't matter really, Bourgogne is outperforming his closest by a huge 23 % in averaga damage. Compared to GK it is even more scary, 53% higher average damage. And we are talking about Tier X, a lot of effort to get there. No noobs are sailing around with Tier X, (bad player is not necessarily a n00b). That said, as they do not see the need to nerf Bourgogne (or Stalingrad), and they keep nerfing the CVs, it must be that they see a real problem there.

Does not show anything really.

 

For example Alabama ST does 29% more damage and has 10%  higer WR than Alabama. They are identical, exept Camo.

 

@DFens_666 is correct here, those kind of rare ships could not be used for that kind of measuring.

[B051LjKo]

1 hour ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Those are not the same players in the Bourgogne or GK.

 

https://wows-numbers.com/de/player/537856692,Lasi__/

The worst player by average damage. Has more damage in Conq and Kremlin. Yamato, Repub and Monty have ~10% less damage than he has in his Bourgogne.

Everyone can have Silver TX BBs, not everyone has Bourgogne. Those 40% players will basicly never get one, as buying steel is basicly impossible. A select few will die their way to R1 often enough to get the required steel + maybe bought some from that XMas stuff + snowflakes. From CBs they wont get too much either.

 

Also, WG doesnt nerf premiums. I wont comment on nerfing CVs, otherwise ill get some people butthurt with it

Ok, let us compare GK and Kremlin then, both silver ships, Kremlin has 25% more damage than GK. How is that balanced?

[DFens_666]

Just now, B051LjKo said:

Ok, let us compare GK and Kremlin then, both silver ships, Kremlin has 25% more damage than GK. How is that balanced?

 

Quite frankly, i agree. Russian BBs are not balanced imo. They are far too strong against HE/Fires and even AP shells. The weakness of having a Citadel is a joke imo, as you can just sit bow in and watch the shells shatter. But wait for Slava, will be even worse

But this isnt really the right place to discuss this

[Sunleader]

I am going to Refrain from Further Comments until the next Update Hits.

It does Heavily Depend on Actual Values.

 

But the next Update will likely make the entire Discussion here Obsolete.

So Spending Effort on this is just not worth it right now.

 

Lets hope they dont go absolutely Overboard and make CVs Unplayable.

(Which is clearly not the case with 0.8.5)

[B051LjKo]

59 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

I am going to Refrain from Further Comments until the next Update Hits.

It does Heavily Depend on Actual Values.

So now that stats show Midway performing worst than any of the BBs out there despite the fact that ''he can attack anywhere, anytime, an there is nothing a BB can do against him'' you are refraining yourself from further comments.... Now isn't that kewl!

 

59 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

But the next Update will likely make the entire Discussion here Obsolete.

So you are expecting that the CV rework discussion will be obsolete, as in the rework will be completed. Good luck with that.

[COPlUM]

18 hours ago, artic_99 said:

Depending on the dd you are playing I would suggest play with the p button. There are some DDs with quite decent aa. I killed 27 planes in Monaghan at t6 for example. I even killed 11 planes in my Shira. (it literally has no aa) you  just need to use the sector reinforcement and try to dogde attacks. For rockets just drive into the direction he comes from mostly the drop will miss. Torpedos simply torp beat and bombs well a bomb hit is pure luck anyway on a dd. And btw if you disable aa you get spottet around 2 km by a plane. Only if you are spottet you enable aa and then you need to think from situation to situation. How many hp have those planes left? Is it worth it sacrificing a few hp for a plane kill? I hope I could give you some suggestions that may help you:) 

I play mid tier Russian DD's and I have been doing this, disable AA to hide, enable it when spotted by planes. It does help somewhat yes, thank you.

[artic_99]

Vor 3 Stunden, Sunleader sagte:

I am going to Refrain from Further Comments until the next Update Hits.

It does Heavily Depend on Actual Values.

 

But the next Update will likely make the entire Discussion here Obsolete.

So Spending Effort on this is just not worth it right now.

 

Lets hope they dont go absolutely Overboard and make CVs Unplayable.

(Which is clearly not the case with 0.8.5)

chill next is already up on test server. It feels better then the current one. AA is still to extreme for low tier and ok for top tier but thanks to the one tick all 0.27secs it feels smother. Did a 142k haku game on test server without modules lol so it will be fine if it comes live as its tested right now.

[mariouus]

2 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

So now that stats show Midway performing worst than any of the BBs out there despite the fact that ''he can attack anywhere, anytime, an there is nothing a BB can do against him'' you are refraining yourself from further comments.... Now isn't that kewl!

Because it is pointless do comment. If somebody tryes do argue stats based on WR (specially if that WR is highly suspicious, I might add) and average damage, he/she can be disregarded with-out mutch consideration.

 

Maybe it is wrong do compare CV with BB? Maybe it should be compared with CA/CL? Or maybe even DD? It does more spoting damage than other three classes combined. So maybe it should do even less damage than a DD?

 

With-out establishing what the "role" of the ship is, it is pointless do start performance compareing. And WG still have not figured that out themself

 

 

 

 

 

[artic_99]

Vor 1 Stunde, mariouus sagte:

Because it is pointless do comment. If somebody tryes do argue stats based on WR (specially if that WR is highly suspicious, I might add) and average damage, he/she can be disregarded with-out mutch consideration.

 

Maybe it is wrong do compare CV with BB? Maybe it should be compared with CA/CL? Or maybe even DD? It does more spoting damage than other three classes combined. So maybe it should do even less damage than a DD?

 

With-out establishing what the "role" of the ship is, it is pointless do start performance compareing. And WG still have not figured that out themself

 

 

 

 

 

simple as that remove spotting on cvs.The cv cant be the personal servant of bb bob.

[Sunleader]

4 hours ago, B051LjKo said:

So now that stats show Midway performing worst than any of the BBs out there despite the fact that ''he can attack anywhere, anytime, an there is nothing a BB can do against him'' you are refraining yourself from further comments.... Now isn't that kewl!

 

So you are expecting that the CV rework discussion will be obsolete, as in the rework will be completed. Good luck with that.

 

1.

Sure Whatever.

I have been Bombing Minotaurs etc with GZ and Kaga.

If Midway Players cant do it its an L2P Issue.

2.

No. I am merely Expecting the Change to be Dramatic enough that a New Discussion will start.

It makes no Sense to Talk about the Current Efficiency of an Automatic System when that System is Changing to a different one anyways.

 

2 hours ago, artic_99 said:

chill next is already up on test server. It feels better then the current one. AA is still to extreme for low tier and ok for top tier but thanks to the one tick all 0.27secs it feels smother. Did a 142k haku game on test server without modules lol so it will be fine if it comes live as its tested right now.

 

Well then I guess I also need to hope it wont go back to CVs being OP as ****.

 

But I dont use PTS.

And thus I cant make a Verdict on it yet.

[artic_99]

Vor 13 Minuten, Sunleader sagte:

 

1.

Sure Whatever.

I have been Bombing Minotaurs etc with GZ and Kaga.

If Midway Players cant do it its an L2P Issue.

2.

No. I am merely Expecting the Change to be Dramatic enough that a New Discussion will start.

It makes no Sense to Talk about the Current Efficiency of an Automatic System when that System is Changing to a different one anyways.

 

 

Well then I guess I also need to hope it wont go back to CVs being OP as ****.

 

But I dont use PTS.

And thus I cant make a Verdict on it yet.

I can assure you its the same as it is right now:)

[El2aZeR]

Spoiler

 

Stats from today.

 

Midway unplayable lol.

 

Seriously, Midway and Haku are still extremely strong options even after 0.8.5. Both have big reserves and, with the exception of Midway TBs (which are extremely situational anyway), decent plane regen. Unless you go completely  you'll practically never find yourself out of a effective striking force during the entire match. Also contrary to popular belief alpha strike is still a thing on both. I suppose it is just time for the average CV player to follow their own advice and git gud?

Audacious meanwhile is dead (comparatively speaking). Played one match and did decent I suppose (which you can watch halfway here https://www.twitch.tv/videos/448558971?t=06h46m42s ) but MM was extremely favorable and I would've been much more effective in a Midway/Haku.

Bit off topic, but wanna know why that DM didn't radar on @Izoz' request?

Because it was a fighter plane DM. 

 

[B051LjKo]

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

 

1.

Sure Whatever.

I have been Bombing Minotaurs etc with GZ and Kaga.

If Midway Players cant do it its an L2P Issue.

Can I ask you to give us a replay where you focus Minotaur for the whole game and send it to the bottom of the sea. I would really love to see that, you can do the bombing with GZ or Kaga, whatever is more convenient for you.

 

So if I understand correctly, a player who can not successfully attack the Minotaur in a Tier 8 carrier has a L2P issue. But the destroyer who ends up in a CV game is ruined from the start. Pressing p to avoid detection is not a L2P issue. Also releasing smoke is not a L2P issue, it is just broken CV-a that DD player cannot do nothing against. Did I understand the your point correctly?

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

2.

No. I am merely Expecting the Change to be Dramatic enough that a New Discussion will start.

It makes no Sense to Talk about the Current Efficiency of an Automatic System when that System is Changing to a different one anyways.

OK, so it is pointless to discuss anything right now because 8.6 comes soon. But, after 8.6 there will be 8.7 in the pipeline, does that mean it will be pointless to discuss again until 8.7 comes?

1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

Well then I guess I also need to hope it wont go back to CVs being OP as ****.

But, sorry, I was under impression that you think CVs are still OP as they currently are, and that 8.5 changes were much needed that id not reduce their efficiency, as you are still averaging 100k+ per game? What made you change your mind?

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, B051LjKo said:

Can I ask you to give us a replay where you focus Minotaur for the whole game and send it to the bottom of the sea. I would really love to see that, you can do the bombing with GZ or Kaga, whatever is more convenient for you.

 

So if I understand correctly, a player who can not successfully attack the Minotaur in a Tier 8 carrier has a L2P issue. But the destroyer who ends up in a CV game is ruined from the start. Pressing p to avoid detection is not a L2P issue. Also releasing smoke is not a L2P issue, it is just broken CV-a that DD player cannot do nothing against. Did I understand the your point correctly?

OK, so it is pointless to discuss anything right now because 8.6 comes soon. But, after 8.6 there will be 8.7 in the pipeline, does that mean it will be pointless to discuss again until 8.7 comes?

But, sorry, I was under impression that you think CVs are still OP as they currently are, and that 8.5 changes were much needed that id not reduce their efficiency, as you are still averaging 100k+ per game? What made you change your mind?

 

1.

And why exactly should I do that yet again?

Do I need to prove it once a week that I can Bomb Minos or what ????

I am Grinding Benham.

And I see no Reason to bother with 0.8.5 when I know the Mechanic Changes Anyways.

So I am not producing yet another replay just because you ignored the last times when I offered them.

I did post the Screenshots back there tough.

Bombed a Mino for 20k but it was Killed by Someone else. Killed a Kremlin with 40k Damage tough *gg*

1.1

DD is Screwed because only way he can Avoid Detection against a CV is to stay in the rear of his Fleetwhere he is useless.

Anything else is a Gamble on wether the CV tries to look for him.

CV however can Change Targets if he is Faced with AA Cruisers or can stay at Range and Spot till the Fleet Dissolves or the AA Cruiser is Killed.

2.

Are you trying to Annoy me on purpose???

If only some Numbers are adjusted you can discuss on.

But the whole Mechanic is changed this time.

Why do you want to argue about a System that will be completely different in the next Update????

3.

Erm Mate.

Maybe you should actually read the last 10 Pages???

Upon 0.8.5 last Week at the same Day as it was Released I clarified several times that this has made CVs much better.

CVs being Playable and it being Bullcrab that a T8 CV cant Play in T10 is not equal to CVs being OP.

I clarified that Stance Several Times over the past Week.

If you cant read then Sorry but I cant help you.

I never Claimed 100k Average in T8 CVs after 0.8.5 either.