CV Rework Discussion

[HaachamaShipping]

2 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Hey there,

@sunleader actually explained really good there..

 

But let me make it really simple when I say helpless..

 

an alone Yamato at the end of a match... against any tier 10 CV.. has no chance.. absolutely no chance..

cannot cap, will be reseted, cannot go find CV, CV will run away.. hide.. etc...

cannot defend itself.. because of crap AA..

 

lets say both the CV captain and yamato captain are average players.. %50 WR guys..

That yamato.. will die.. that is sure.. there is no way for that yamato captain to OUTPLAY the CV captain..

unless CV captain is a very very speshul gentelmen...

 

one more example, a shima.. end of the game,

has to cap.. 1 vs 1 with a tier 10 CV..

how long can it hide in a smoke... ?

CV will just hover on it.. wait for it.. then when it comes out.. without any decent AA cover.. shima will suffer...

shima will die..

that shima has NO WAY OF winning that battle.. If CV captain does no mistake..

 

So,
when I say helpless.. I mean this..

basically..

1) you vs enemy.. no one makes a mistake.. better captain wins..

2) you vs enemy, you make a mistake... enemy captain wins..

3) you vs enemy, enemy captain makes a mistake, you win...

 

number 1, doesn't work against CV in certain ships..

surface ships,

you need to be a better captain.. and try to avoid mistakes to win..

in CV, against some certain ships, you don't need to be a better captain..

Thats what I call helpless..

In a Yamato, I also don't need to be massively better to end a Des Moines. In a YY I also don't need to be massively better to end a Yamato.

 

And frankly, shooting down a few planes does not make you less helpless. If the amount of planes shot down does not prevent a strike, the surface ship basically is helpless. If surface ships can actually kill planes reliably before they can attack, the CV basically is helpless. That is how current AA works. CVs are detached from the standard rules of engagement and from the standard rules of balancing, which many seem to not be able to grasp. Short of making AA punitive to the level where it shreds planes and shuts CVs down, CV will always be able to grief and kill some players before running out of planes (or carrying the game if the amount of planes killed is too low). What the game needs is a skill-based defensive element, not more/less AA.

 

This is however seemingly quite hard to understand, which is also why WG efforts at balancing all are focused on getting the damage numbers into line, not the player experience (being able to kill fewer players reduces match impact, but makes those players not exactly any less frustrated at being "helpless". And people continue bitching about CV surviving matches more, despite it being pointless, because service cost is fixed and CV cannot position in the corner for free, CVs positioning in a corner basically sacrifice their dpm. And you whether a CV loses all its hp or gets deplaned, the difference is minor, as their match participation basically crashes at that point, given CVs cannot tank and most are also terrible at hiding. In fact, if you want to find something that is terrible for CVs, something keeping them spotted and some long-range BBs deleting them from across the map. But these are all things one has to consider outside the typical way WoWS is played in other classes. Damage output by CVs in 0.8.4 was largely fine. The way the damage gets dealt is the issue. And this does not get fixed by adding a bit of AA damage, that gets fixed by revamping the basic interaction of surface ship and CV to be equal, in that both apply similar amounts of skill.

[Excavatus]

1 minute ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

And frankly, shooting down a few planes does not make you less helpless. If the amount of planes shot down does not prevent a strike, the surface ship basically is helpless. If surface ships can actually kill planes reliably before they can attack, the CV basically is helpless. That is how current AA works. CVs are detached from the standard rules of engagement and from the standard rules of balancing, which many seem to not be able to grasp. Short of making AA punitive to the level where it shreds planes and shuts CVs down, CV will always be able to grief and kill some players before running out of planes (or carrying the game if the amount of planes killed is too low). What the game needs is a skill-based defensive element, not more/less AA.

Actually..

Absolutely this :)
I was trying to say way before the 0.8.5 hits the fan..

 

I personally believe.. there is no way to make both sides happy.. I'm sad but thats what I see and feel.

You either make CVs useless.. or surface ships useless..

since there are more than 1 surface ships, you can make half of the surface ships useless against a CV and make the CV useless against the other half and can call it balans!

 

[Sunleader]

24 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

In a Yamato, I also don't need to be massively better to end a Des Moines. In a YY I also don't need to be massively better to end a Yamato.

 

And frankly, shooting down a few planes does not make you less helpless. If the amount of planes shot down does not prevent a strike, the surface ship basically is helpless. If surface ships can actually kill planes reliably before they can attack, the CV basically is helpless. That is how current AA works. CVs are detached from the standard rules of engagement and from the standard rules of balancing, which many seem to not be able to grasp. Short of making AA punitive to the level where it shreds planes and shuts CVs down, CV will always be able to grief and kill some players before running out of planes (or carrying the game if the amount of planes killed is too low). What the game needs is a skill-based defensive element, not more/less AA.

 

This is however seemingly quite hard to understand, which is also why WG efforts at balancing all are focused on getting the damage numbers into line, not the player experience (being able to kill fewer players reduces match impact, but makes those players not exactly any less frustrated at being "helpless". And people continue bitching about CV surviving matches more, despite it being pointless, because service cost is fixed and CV cannot position in the corner for free, CVs positioning in a corner basically sacrifice their dpm. And you whether a CV loses all its hp or gets deplaned, the difference is minor, as their match participation basically crashes at that point, given CVs cannot tank and most are also terrible at hiding. In fact, if you want to find something that is terrible for CVs, something keeping them spotted and some long-range BBs deleting them from across the map. But these are all things one has to consider outside the typical way WoWS is played in other classes. Damage output by CVs in 0.8.4 was largely fine. The way the damage gets dealt is the issue. And this does not get fixed by adding a bit of AA damage, that gets fixed by revamping the basic interaction of surface ship and CV to be equal, in that both apply similar amounts of skill.

 

20 minutes ago, Excavatus said:

Actually..

Absolutely this :)
I was trying to say way before the 0.8.5 hits the fan..

 

I personally believe.. there is no way to make both sides happy.. I'm sad but thats what I see and feel.

You either make CVs useless.. or surface ships useless..

since there are more than 1 surface ships, you can make half of the surface ships useless against a CV and make the CV useless against the other half and can call it balans!

 

 

Its nice that all of us can Agree that the current System with a Player Fighting a mostly Automatic System that Defends the other Player. Is impossible to balance as you always make one side useless.

 

But I do heavily disagree that this is currently the case with CVs being useless.

0.8.5 is by far not enough to allow Durface Ships to Reliably Stop Strikes before they Drop.

 

 

 

But on the Agreed Part we face the next Problem.

Because an Manual AA System would be next to Impossible to balance as well.

 

[HaachamaShipping]

13 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

 

 

Its nice that all of us can Agree that the current System with a Player Fighting a mostly Automatic System that Defends the other Player. Is impossible to balance as you always make one side useless.

 

But I do heavily disagree that this is currently the case with CVs being useless.

0.8.5 is by far not enough to allow Durface Ships to Reliably Stop Strikes before they Drop.

 

 

 

But on the Agreed Part we face the next Problem.

Because an Manual AA System would be next to Impossible to balance as well.

 

It's not enough, but if it does not fix the issue, what does it fix? The CV haters (and frankly certain people are just that) will jump on any train and feel they can finally rub it, though any good CV player can still humble a few selected surface ships before they have to consider running out of planes. And some don't even care about that. 0.8.5 is to me not a bad change because CVs are "unplayable", it's a bad change, because it

• hit certain CVs harder than others, undeservedly so. Just like the speed nerf for example, Enterprise will notice the least impact, GZ meanwhile is still able to do something, but in a match GZ vs most other CVs, with equal skill the GZ team is at a disadvantage. And Saipan got hit hard too. If 
• it implies that this direction of "fixes" actually could ever bring results. It cannot.

[artic_99]

I don't know why you are taking Yama as example for a bad aa ship I am completely fine in it. I have adf and the 3 point aa skill and change my sector's and most of the times I am shooting down 30 or even more planes if a CV focuses me. 

[artic_99]

Vor 8 Minuten, Cagliostro_chan sagte:

It's not enough, but if it does not fix the issue, what does it fix? The CV haters (and frankly certain people are just that) will jump on any train and feel they can finally rub it, though any good CV player can still humble a few selected surface ships before they have to consider running out of planes. And some don't even care about that. 0.8.5 is to me not a bad change because CVs are "unplayable", it's a bad change, because it

• hit certain CVs harder than others, undeservedly so. Just like the speed nerf for example, Enterprise will notice the least impact, GZ meanwhile is still able to do something, but in a match GZ vs most other CVs, with equal skill the GZ team is at a disadvantage. And Saipan got hit hard too. If 
• it implies that this direction of "fixes" actually could ever bring results. It cannot.

That's why they need to balance ship by ship and not globally. End of the story. 

[Filipin00]

Disclaimer: I know how old this video is, and it's not my video...

 

Watch this video of Kaga performing in tier 10 battle and THEN tell me CVs are OP

I mean, tier 10 CVs, I don't care about those, hell I don't even care about tier 10 as a tier itself, I prefer tiers 6-8

This level of AA uptiered carriers have to face is absurd, I don't care what anyone says, but it's ABSURD!!!

[CptBarney]

Well if that naval training thing comes through it might also apply to cv’s in the future, so everyone gets a bit of balans.

 

 

not a good year for wargaming is it? 

 

 

[Caughtintherain]

Just now, CptBarney said:

Well if that naval training thing comes through it might also apply to cv’s in the future, so everyone gets a bit of balans.

 

 

not a good year for wargaming is it? 

 

 

 

Suddenly the idea of discussing CVs seems hollow and pointless, it's like arguing over who gets to have mastery over the radio in a car on the way to the scrapyard.

[Pandafaust]

1 hour ago, Caughtintherain said:

 

Suddenly the idea of discussing CVs seems hollow and pointless, it's like arguing over who gets to have mastery over the radio in a car on the way to the scrapyard.

You're not considering all the possibilities!  Once the car's scrapped, all you've got to do is reapply to do your driving theory, lessons, and practical test, save up for the same car again, run it until it dies, take it to the scrapyard (inc. radio argument), go through the whole thing a few more times and at the end of it, a mechanic will come and give you a *free* upgrade!  Imagine the fun you'll be having!

[Woof_for_Me]

Vor 3 Stunden, Filipin00 sagte:

Disclaimer: I know how old this video is, and it's not my video...

 

Watch this video of Kaga performing in tier 10 battle and THEN tell me CVs are OP

I mean, tier 10 CVs, I don't care about those, hell I don't even care about tier 10 as a tier itself, I prefer tiers 6-8

This level of AA uptiered carriers have to face is absurd, I don't care what anyone says, but it's ABSURD!!!

Hello.

 

Please have a look on this Video.

I want to know where the Issue with Carriers is in this example.

[B051LjKo]

On 6/30/2019 at 10:17 AM, Sunleader said:

I hope we get a German CV Line.

Since Germans are good with Secondaries.

I would Suggest the Z-Plan Flugdeckkreuzer for this ^^

Scharnhorst Turrets for Secondaries *gg*

Good, I hope they don't.... No more, enough with the CVs, I really think they should be removed. As what is WG oing right now with the playes is just ridiculous... First they present 4 very strong premiums, grab a crap load of money, promise no nerfs to premiums, and they global nerf them into oblivion.

 

No more new CV lines please.

 

And I honestly do not undrstand your ''DD gameplay is impossible with CV's'', as I mentioned before, I did the whole rankes season in a ''more than mediocre shima'', and had no issues with the carriers, as in really no. Yes if they focus, you cant do much, but hay, even that is an accomplishment, if he wasted half of the game just chasing you, you did your job.

[DragonstrikerOrigin]

I just dont understand why everyone wants to have it the way that CV's can't do any dmg at all. It just makes no sense. 

Should we start with completely disabling the guns of every surface ships aswell in these matter?

like seriously. AAAHHH we cant stop the Planes from atacking. OKAY so how much dmg did he do to you? lets say 10-20k. Alright so he will coming back in around 40-60 sec's.

Lets see what a BB can do at that time. He can do no dmg what so ever but hey that happens with AP right? now lets say you have good salvos and can delete 2 cruisers in 2 salvos so now should we disable 2 guns from bb's just because he was able to delete a ship?

come on guy's its commen sense that CV's itself are not that [edited]OP as everyone tries them to make it out to be.

YES the are annoying but so is a HE spamming Worcester behind an island or a HE spamming Haru sitting in smoke or even worse an HE spamming Conq that sits at 19km range spewing HE all over the place and does per salvo 10-20k dmg with HE sets also 2 fires etc...

 

and people saying CV is cancer...... i'm just speechless that people are sooo arrogant to begin with.

[Sunleader]

6 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

It's not enough, but if it does not fix the issue, what does it fix? The CV haters (and frankly certain people are just that) will jump on any train and feel they can finally rub it, though any good CV player can still humble a few selected surface ships before they have to consider running out of planes. And some don't even care about that. 0.8.5 is to me not a bad change because CVs are "unplayable", it's a bad change, because it

• hit certain CVs harder than others, undeservedly so. Just like the speed nerf for example, Enterprise will notice the least impact, GZ meanwhile is still able to do something, but in a match GZ vs most other CVs, with equal skill the GZ team is at a disadvantage. And Saipan got hit hard too. If 
• it implies that this direction of "fixes" actually could ever bring results. It cannot.

 

1.

Balancing in between CVs is lacking for sure and needs tweaking for sure.

But there is some priorities.

And when vast majority of players suffers from an ridiculously OP Class then getting down from that has priority over fixing internal inbalance of that Classes Ships.

Thats why 0.8.5 first had to knock down CVs some nodges.

2.

Not at all. And if you check WGs Announcement you notice they dont either.

They have Accepted that the System itself needs changes.

But big changes need time.

So it does make sense to at least improve the situation in the meantime.

And thats what 0.8.5 did.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, artic_99 said:

I don't know why you are taking Yama as example for a bad aa ship I am completely fine in it. I have adf and the 3 point aa skill and change my sector's and most of the times I am shooting down 30 or even more planes if a CV focuses me. 

 

I think he wasnt actually.

He pointed out that Yamato despite its decent AA is basicly Food if Faced with a CV in Endgame.

 

6 hours ago, Filipin00 said:

Disclaimer: I know how old this video is, and it's not my video...

 

Watch this video of Kaga performing in tier 10 battle and THEN tell me CVs are OP

I mean, tier 10 CVs, I don't care about those, hell I don't even care about tier 10 as a tier itself, I prefer tiers 6-8

This level of AA uptiered carriers have to face is absurd, I don't care what anyone says, but it's ABSURD!!!

 

Watched it.

And Sorry. But Yes CVs were OP in 0.8.4.

 

An old Video doesnt change anything on that.

Even less one with the WiP sign from PTS where they experimented.

 

That guy in the Kaga got hit by Heavy AA constantly. He didnt even try to evade for most part.

So just like a BB which just drives in a straight line deserves to be torped.

He deserved to lose planes like that.

 

Had nothing to do with T10...

 

2 hours ago, Rose_Dikinson said:

Hello.

 

Please have a look on this Video.

I want to know where the Issue with Carriers is in this example.

 

Just did.

 

Now the obvious thing is.

This is from Testing in February.

Its not relevant to the current or even last AA Iterations.

 

But just from watching I get a crisis.

The Issue is that the CV basicly was a BB driving in straight line after having spotted a DD in 8km distance. And then complain he gets Torped.

 

Sorry. But if you dont even try to evade Heavy AA and then complain that you lose swaths of planes. Then I really dont know what to even say.

 

I mean Sorry. But what do you say to a Cruiser who Broadsides a BB 10km away from him and then complains about being Citadelled ???

 

47 minutes ago, B051LjKo said:

Good, I hope they don't.... No more, enough with the CVs, I really think they should be removed. As what is WG oing right now with the playes is just ridiculous... First they present 4 very strong premiums, grab a crap load of money, promise no nerfs to premiums, and they global nerf them into oblivion.

 

No more new CV lines please.

 

And I honestly do not undrstand your ''DD gameplay is impossible with CV's'', as I mentioned before, I did the whole rankes season in a ''more than mediocre shima'', and had no issues with the carriers, as in really no. Yes if they focus, you cant do much, but hay, even that is an accomplishment, if he wasted half of the game just chasing you, you did your job.

 

You sure turned 180.

Scorched Earth Tactics?

If you cant have what you want just try to destroy it alltogether ???

 

And it makes DDs Unplayable because DDs cant do their Role.

With CV in match they cant Spot. They cant Sneak Attack. They cant even Cap.

 

And being a plaything for the Enemy CV to keep him occupied instead of bombing your Team might be Great for your Team which is then not bothered by him.

But for the DD its Frustrating and Unrewarding like hell.

 

Even Yoloing is more fun than being slowly tortured to death by a CV...

 

 

23 minutes ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

I just dont understand why everyone wants to have it the way that CV's can't do any dmg at all. It just makes no sense. 

Should we start with completely disabling the guns of every surface ships aswell in these matter?

like seriously. AAAHHH we cant stop the Planes from atacking. OKAY so how much dmg did he do to you? lets say 10-20k. Alright so he will coming back in around 40-60 sec's.

Lets see what a BB can do at that time. He can do no dmg what so ever but hey that happens with AP right? now lets say you have good salvos and can delete 2 cruisers in 2 salvos so now should we disable 2 guns from bb's just because he was able to delete a ship?

come on guy's its commen sense that CV's itself are not that [edited]OP as everyone tries them to make it out to be.

YES the are annoying but so is a HE spamming Worcester behind an island or a HE spamming Haru sitting in smoke or even worse an HE spamming Conq that sits at 19km range spewing HE all over the place and does per salvo 10-20k dmg with HE sets also 2 fires etc...

 

and people saying CV is cancer...... i'm just speechless that people are sooo arrogant to begin with.

 

1.

I dont need 60 Secs to come back as CV.

But lets leave the Stawman Arguments you throw around there aside.

 

2.

Nobody Wants CVs to be unable to do Damage.

The Demand is that Attacks from CVs can be Defended against like against other Ships.

 

A BB can do a Ton of Damage for sure.

But you compare 30k Damage from CV vs a BB that Citadel deleted a Cruiser.

30k is Damage I by now tend to do with my First TB Squad on Haku.

For that I need only 4-5 of my 12 Torps to Hit something.

And the Ships I drop on cant do anything about that.

I will hit them for that Damage.

 

Meanwhile as a BB. I can only do this Damage if a Cruiser gives me Flat Broadside AND I am lucky enough with RNG to Hit him.

Most of the time BB Salvos land against Angled Cruisers and give you stuff like 2k Damage from Overpens.

 

An HE Spamming Conqueror at 19km is Annoying.

But it nearly never does 20k per Salvo.

And I can Return Fire as well.

 

CV meanwhile is almost certain to do alot of Damage. And I cant do anything against him.

Because he is 30km away.

 

 

And well.

I already explained this before.

 

But People being so Toxic on CVs comes from the Simple Fact that CVs are extremely frustrating for Surface Ships to Play with.

 

Nobody likes to be the Turkey in a Turkeyshoot Mate.

And Surface Ships were forced to Play Turkey for nearly 6 Months now.

 

A CV is basicly an HE Spamming Worcester with 40km Range and Guided Shells that can adjust their Aim in midflight.

And its sitting in an Smokescreen that has no Timelimit and which is on top concealing Gunflashes despite not even blocking the Worcesters own Vision which it can extend to any Point on the Map at will.

 

 

 

People which have been Frustrated over and over by something tend to become rather Toxic towards it.

Thats how things are in the World.

And when this happens you can expect insults and other things.

 

And I doubt anything has ever frustrated more Players in this Game than CVs did in the last few Months....

[Ze_Reckless]

1 hour ago, DragonstrikerOrigin said:

I just dont understand why everyone wants to have it the way that CV's can't do any dmg at all. It just makes no sense. 

Should we start with completely disabling the guns of every surface ships aswell in these matter?

like seriously. AAAHHH we cant stop the Planes from atacking. OKAY so how much dmg did he do to you? lets say 10-20k. Alright so he will coming back in around 40-60 sec's.

Lets see what a BB can do at that time. He can do no dmg what so ever but hey that happens with AP right? now lets say you have good salvos and can delete 2 cruisers in 2 salvos so now should we disable 2 guns from bb's just because he was able to delete a ship?

come on guy's its commen sense that CV's itself are not that [edited]OP as everyone tries them to make it out to be.

YES the are annoying but so is a HE spamming Worcester behind an island or a HE spamming Haru sitting in smoke or even worse an HE spamming Conq that sits at 19km range spewing HE all over the place and does per salvo 10-20k dmg with HE sets also 2 fires etc...

 

My biggest problem with surface ship vs. CV interaction after the rework was lack of counter play. This counter play doesn't necessarily mean that I have to annihilate his squad in 2 seconds, I'm fine with having the option to seek a teammate's AA bubble to not get killed. This was possible before the rework due to def AA panic and after 8.5 due to AA being strong, quite possibly too strong for most cruisers and BBs. The balancing isn't done yet, these numbers will change. Maybe they will scrap the single plane damage again if need be. Surface ships have been suffering for the last 6 months, I'm sure you can survive a couple of weeks with strong AA.

 

The changes to the AA mechanics in 8.6 look like an interactive option to fight the CV rather than to just hope he collects your clouds. Yay! Game play instead of a walking simulator. If the AA is too strong they will nerf it until balance is achieved.

Ideally, informed and skilled CV players will be able to strike, informed and skilled surface ship players will be able to defend themselves against strikes. If either makes a mistake he will lose planes or HP respectively. The average player will struggle just as much as he struggles with the other ship classes and game mechanics and he won't care as long as stuff goes BOOM.

[Filipin00]

6 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Now the obvious thing is.

This is from Testing in February.

Its not relevant to the current or even last AA Iterations.

 

But just from watching I get a crisis.

The Issue is that the CV basicly was a BB driving in straight line after having spotted a DD in 8km distance. And then complain he gets Torped.

 

Sorry. But if you dont even try to evade Heavy AA and then complain that you lose swaths of planes. Then I really dont know what to even say.

It doesn't matter how old it is, the same thing happens now, the same thing happened here. I was just trying to picture it to you visually to see what happens to me in EVERY tier 10 battle with tier 8 CVs.

 

Evade heavy AA? Have you tried playing Kaga? Evade flak with Kaga? Kaga's planes maneuverability feels like I have ping 999, takes them good 3 seconds to respond to changing directions, not to mention the pathetic speed even with boost....

 

Evade flak? "evading" flak implies that there's a ROOM for avoiding, you can't avoid flak if it's literally so much of flak around you that you have no space to avoid it.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 8 Stunden, Sunleader sagte:

That guy in the Kaga got hit by Heavy AA constantly. 

He didn't get hit by Flak after middle - wnd of the video, his planes just "melted" under AA aura.

Testing suggests lower AA values then there are now.

During testing planes were 50+ kts faster.

He basically was useless (and untrained) the whole match with advantages conpared to now.

Doesnt say much however he played very badly LOL

 

[ghostbuster_]

16 hours ago, Filipin00 said:

Disclaimer: I know how old this video is, and it's not my video...

 

Watch this video of Kaga performing in tier 10 battle and THEN tell me CVs are OP

I mean, tier 10 CVs, I don't care about those, hell I don't even care about tier 10 as a tier itself, I prefer tiers 6-8

This level of AA uptiered carriers have to face is absurd, I don't care what anyone says, but it's ABSURD!!!

in a heavy t10 match with "heavy" AA ships, this guy shouldnt be able to strike at all under that much AA. this was the case with RTS CVs... 

 

sorry but you saying AA was already powerfull after watching this video is just dumb. any tier 8 ship has some difficulties against tier 10 ships. but you can work with that. 

[Filipin00]

5 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

in a heavy t10 match with "heavy" AA ships, this guy should be able to strike at all under that much AA. this was the case with RTS CVs... 

 

sorry but you saying AA was already powerfull after watching this video is just dumb. any tier 8 ship has some difficulties against tier 10 ships. but you can work with that. 

Yes, you can indeed work with having a worcester, des moines or minotaur escorting every damn low-to-average AA ship in enemy team. Of course, silly me

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 3 Minuten, Filipin00 sagte:

Yes, you can indeed work with having a worcester, des moines or minotaur escorting every damn low-to-average AA ship in enemy team. Of course, silly me

There is a good way of doing it.

Mainly praying for your team to shoot them, get that F3 to light up on the cruisers and harrassing them with small suicide strikes. They will crumble under pressure especially after they enter open water to escort BBs.

[ghostbuster_]

4 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

Yes, you can indeed work with having a worcester, des moines or minotaur escorting every damn low-to-average AA ship in enemy team. Of course, silly me

btw im my previous post i worte "should". it was meant to be "shouldnt"

 

there is no rule which says that you cant wait for the right moment to strike, is there?  if you dont want to wait, well then you are gonna accept losing some planes. 

 

btw did you play RTS CVs? AA was maybe 5 times stronger than the reworked AA. thats why i laugh at people who claim that new AA is strong. 

[Filipin00]

40 minutes ago, ghostbuster_ said:

btw im my previous post i worte "should". it was meant to be "shouldnt"

 

there is no rule which says that you cant wait for the right moment to strike, is there?  if you dont want to wait, well then you are gonna accept losing some planes. 

 

btw did you play RTS CVs? AA was maybe 5 times stronger than the reworked AA. thats why i laugh at people who claim that new AA is strong. 

I indeed played RTS CVs(reached only ryujo tho and when I returned rework was already in 0.8.3. and I had my ryujo in the port), and I hated it so much, AA wasn't even the problem then for me as much as USN fighters just patrolling the map and denying every.single.[edited].attack.run.I.tried. I couldn't even use the manual drops it was too complicated for me I only ever used cross-drops using auto-drop by only adjusting the drop angle :P

 

But yea I know what you all are trying to say but.....in the videos on youtube everyone makes it seem it's so easy, no, it's not easy. You try to attack anyone with torpedoes they start dodging and I'm NOT good with maths and that crap I can't estimate how to drop torpedoes at someone turning while I'm doing drop. More often than not everyone just seems to evade my 2-4 torpedoes like it's nothing, like they're drifting in a sports car not a [edited]warship.

 

Also, whoever said it's a delight to drop DDs with HE dive bombers is a complete moron because it's impossible. RNG is so bad you NEVER hit anything, and even if you do you do so little damage I can hear laughter from the other side of the globe. Plane losses I feel are too much, on all CVs I play I have a captain with air supremacy, upgrades for engine boost time and last gasp, survivability expert and aircraft armor and plane health modules and flight control mod(I almost always go for regen and health build for planes...but I think I should reconsider that). And then when the drop fails, I do no damage and then I have to spend half a minute dodging flak and escaping the AA so that when I press F I don't pay respect but actually get planes back. Like I said, everyone always bunching up, no lone targets, I feel like people have learned to successfully counter CVs, people know that only staying together now renders CV obsolete

[Bainsmit_steel]

Truth AA was stronger but alpha was also much stronger...i honestly think that they could make rts cvs also good for playing but greed is wonder...

[Sunleader]

3 hours ago, Filipin00 said:

It doesn't matter how old it is, the same thing happens now, the same thing happened here. I was just trying to picture it to you visually to see what happens to me in EVERY tier 10 battle with tier 8 CVs.

 

Evade heavy AA? Have you tried playing Kaga? Evade flak with Kaga? Kaga's planes maneuverability feels like I have ping 999, takes them good 3 seconds to respond to changing directions, not to mention the pathetic speed even with boost....

 

Evade flak? "evading" flak implies that there's a ROOM for avoiding, you can't avoid flak if it's literally so much of flak around you that you have no space to avoid it.

 

Sure. Because I Have not been constantly Posting Screenshots of me doing Perfectly fine with my T8 CVs in T10 Battles.

And Because I have not been Posting Screenshots of me Bombing even Dedicated T10 AA Cruisers.

 

I guess I am just using Magic then.

 

 

1 hour ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

He didn't get hit by Flak after middle - wnd of the video, his planes just "melted" under AA aura.

Testing suggests lower AA values then there are now.

During testing planes were 50+ kts faster.

He basically was useless (and untrained) the whole match with advantages conpared to now.

Doesnt say much however he played very badly LOL

 

 

I will Admit I only watched till about Half. So Maybe I missed that he ever got to the Point of Realizing that just Flying into Heavy AA is a Bad Idea.

I just could not Bear to Watch this waste of Planes any Further there.

 

But Point in Case. The Reason the Guy in that Video Performed Bad is because he has no Idea how to Play a CV.

Not because T8 CVs are Unplayable in a T10 Battle.

 

44 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

Yes, you can indeed work with having a worcester, des moines or minotaur escorting every damn low-to-average AA ship in enemy team. Of course, silly me

 

Yes you Can lol.

Its called Spotting and Waiting.

 

When there is a Radar Cruiser on Every Enemy BB Group. You dont just Yolo them with a DD either you know.

You just Spot them from Distance and wait for a Better Chance.

 

The Joke is. The CV can Actually at least do some Suicide Runs. Because unlike the DD he wont be Killed if he Does lol.

 

[B051LjKo]

 

10 hours ago, Sunleader said:

You sure turned 180.

Scorched Earth Tactics?

If you cant have what you want just try to destroy it alltogether ???

I am not the one destroying it. I haven't played a single game since 8.5, and not planning it for a while. This what the WG is doing is against every code of fair seller buyer relationship. First they sell loads of premium carriers, and then they nerf all of them to the ground with an excuse ''o, it is a global nerf, that makes it OK''. The ''hotfix'' with 10 xp per tier for SE is a joke. When Ps were distributed across all planes, it made sence, and it made ships like Saipan balanced. Now it's  joke. Torpedo heal is usellees, adrenaline rush is useless... You dont do that on a live server. Adding more CVs wil just make it worse.

10 hours ago, Sunleader said:

And it makes DDs Unplayable because DDs cant do their Role.

It did not make my DDs unplayable, and I in general suck with DDs. I cant see how it can be unplayable for someone who is really good with them. Top players in the ''unplayable conditions'' still make 60 - 70 % win rate. Ks that the indication that DDs are overpowered, as they should be unplayable. Should we nerf the DDs?

10 hours ago, Sunleader said:

With CV in match they cant Spot. They cant Sneak Attack. They cant even Cap.

In a math with CVs spotting is not their first objectiv, planes are there to do the spotting, as they historicaly did. They can still sneak attack, as air detection for DDs is really low with AA switched of, and for sure they can cap. Smoke lasts longer than it takes for them to cap.

10 hours ago, Sunleader said:

And being a plaything for the Enemy CV to keep him occupied instead of bombing your Team might be Great for your Team which is then not bothered by him.

Only WG is to be blames for discouraging CVs to attack each other with rediculous level of AA. That same whiners are claiming it is useless.

10 hours ago, Sunleader said:

But for the DD its Frustrating and Unrewarding like hell.

And it is not frustrating for a cruiser to be one, or two shot by BBs? It is not frustrating to see three bow tanking Yamatos sitting and doing nothing elese? it is not frustrating for a BB to be burned down against Wooster machine coming behind the island. All those mechanics can be prevented b the CVs if played properly.

10 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Even Yoloing is more fun than being slowly tortured to death by a CV...

Yamato has more chance against CV in a 1 vs 1 engagement, than against a Shima, sorry to say. And yet, you are not calling Shima OP just beacause a single BB cant do crap against it.

 

Blah...