CV Rework Discussion

[Sadzior]

9 hours ago, Sunleader said:

 

Cant tell on Enterprise Bombs as I dont have her.

But Shokaku, GZ and Haku can Citadel her.

 

As for that being the Price to Pay.

Then what is the Price that CVs have to Pay to crap all over Everyone else ? :)

 

9 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Nope.

Its just that not much has changed.

AA Damage is exactly the same as in 0.8.4

Only Difference is that it now Focusses 1 Plane.

 

As 1 Plane is Focussed you now lose Planes Faster.

 

But the Claims of Panicking CV Players about them being unable to Bomb Ships or having entire Squadrons Deleted is entirely down to their overactive Fantasy.

 

Because Total AA Damage to the Squadron has not changed in the Slightest.

Meaning that the Total Time your Squadron has till its Destruction is entirely the same.

Only Difference is that you dont suddenly lose 10 planes after 10 Seconds but instead lose 1 plane per second steadily.

 

 

Im starting to be tired on your fantasmagorias.

 

No no and no.

 

Difference is before you was returning to carrier after 10 seconds in AAA with half planes red and half yellow.  Now you returning with half squadron alife.

GOT IT?

 

And the fact you are able to bomb minotaur ( with heavy losses) with you are babbling about like mantra-  WHO TOLD YOU EXACTLY ITS A MEASURE OF ANYTHING?

ARE MINOTAUR SUPPOSED TO BE IMMUNE TO PLANES? WHO TOLD YOU THAT?

 

I cant see a reason ANY freaking ship shall be immune to another one in this game.

[1MajorKoenig]

17 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

One might say, that is due to the mentality of new CVs: They are completely seperated from the other classes. They basicly play 1v1s most of the time.

 

Errr nope. It’s the opposite now

 

You are 6 month too late with this statement dude. 

[El2aZeR]

26 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

Well....you say squishiest, I say the most worthless ones....

 

How does it change that they are objectively the weakest planes in terms of HP? And why should you be entitled to strike a dedicated AA cruiser 2 tiers above you with those?

[HaachamaShipping]

1 hour ago, artic_99 said:

That's what he tried to point out. In his opinion no ship should be helpless against another ship. In my opionion I don't agree 100%on this. Musashi and Shima have Chances due to rngesus, they don't need a decent aa. Cuz the terrible aa was there to recompens the Incredible strength of those ships. 

No, that's not what he wanted to point out right there, regardless of what the definition of "helpless" is. There seems to be an implication of "CVs have no counter".

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 1 Stunde, El2aZeR sagte:

 

I'm sorry, but are we playing the same game?

Pls keep your comments about my dear Shima in exactly this tone because i'm sure she's going to break up in tears again if she witnesses more negative facts being spread about her... ☆

However, is the announcement about the Surviveability Expert on planes the only announced buff? If so rip CVs.

 

 

[thiextar]

8 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Pls keep your comments about my dear Shima in exactly this tone because i'm sure she's going to break up in tears again if she witnesses more negative facts being spread about her... ☆

However, is the announcement about the Surviveability Expert on planes the only announced buff? If so rip CVs.

 

 

Yes, and we are getting a further two buffs to aa soon. 

 

Reworked sector management and a faster tick rate on high caliber guns for consistency

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 4 Minuten, thiextar sagte:

Yes, and we are getting a further two buffs to aa soon. 

 

Reworked sector management and a faster tick rate on high caliber guns for consistency 

I don't even care anymore to be honest. WG is probably panicking already due to all the players who stopped playing CV while they still have 2 more premium CVs to sell LOL.

I will for now just stay with my dear Shima until the 8km torp option gets called op ♡

[Sunleader]

1 hour ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Define "helpless". Because (depending on definition) even Shima and Musashi are not "helpless against [CVs] under any condition" nor does this necesarily apply to DM vs BBs or BBs vs DDs.

 

In a Competetive PvP Game. Helpless Defines the Status of One Player not being able to Fight back against another Player.

Thus being forced to run away and/or take the Attacks of that other Player without any effective way to retaliate.

 

The Reason for this Definition. Is down to the Frustration that Players in a PvP Game Feel. When they are Forced to Play the Turkey in a Turkey Shoot.

Nobody wants to be the Turkey in a Turkey Shoot. But that before 0.8.5 this was exactly the case. Because thanks to the AA not Shooting down any Aircraft. Surface Ships could do pretty much nothing against Repeated CV Attacks and thus Felt completely Helpless because they could not even Shoot down some Planes to at least make themselves more Expensive.

 

37 minutes ago, Filipin00 said:

You know, yesterday I got 2 games in full tier 10 in my Kaga.

 

I flew around a spot in a domination trying to spot something for my team in my rocket planes

 

I didn't even attack the dude(Salem) and 1 sec(maybe less) after I've spotted him my squadron got deleted. Instantly.

 

I tried attacking the dude with second rocket squadron(I thought he just activated dfAA) I got halfway through to his mid-range AA aura and my planes just got deleted instantly. Not 1 attack plane got its rockets off.

 

After that I took torpedo and dive bombers and sunk myself. Because NO!!!!

 

 

 

As usual.

Video or it didnt Happen. :)

 

Because Heavy AA wont Hit after less than 1 Second. And the only way a Squadron can be Destroyed Suddenly now. Is when you Fly in a Straight Line and thus get hit by Heavy AA.

 

12 minutes ago, Sadzior said:

 

Im starting to be tired on your fantasmagorias.

 

No no and no.

 

Difference is before you was returning to carrier after 10 seconds in AAA with half planes red and half yellow.  Now you returning with half squadron alife.

GOT IT?

 

And the fact you are able to bomb minotaur ( with heavy losses) with you are babbling about like mantra-  WHO TOLD YOU EXACTLY ITS A MEASURE OF ANYTHING?

ARE MINOTAUR SUPPOSED TO BE IMMUNE TO PLANES? WHO TOLD YOU THAT?

 

I cant see a reason ANY freaking ship shall be immune to another one in this game.

 

1.

I just Explained that. But hey whatever Suits your Fancy :)

2.

Bombing a Minotaur losing 2 DBs out of 8 = Heavy Losses xD

And Mate. YOU GUYS are Demanding that your Squadrons are Immune from AA Fire from Weaker Ships.

Yet at the same time you demand that the Strongest T10 AA Cruiser in the Game needs to be weak enough that you can Bomb him with a T8 CV

3.

Neither Should Aircraft Sqadrons be Immune to losses from any Ship in this Game.

But again. Thats what you Guys Demand.

 

 

I would Like to Stress this Guys.

YOU GUYS are currently Complaining that T10 Dedicated AA Ships can PARTIALLY Block Attacks from T8 Carriers. And Demand that AA is Nerfed so that T8 CVs can more Easily Bomb T10 AA Blobs without losing entire Squadrons.

At the same time. YOU GUYS are currently Complaining that a T10 DD with AA Upgrades is Capable of Killing 2-3 Planes when you Try to Bomb him 3 times with the same Squadron in a T8 CV. Demanding that his AA Should be Nerfed so that he doesnt cause any Losses to your Squadrons.

 

And Sorry. But my Answer to this is. 

As long as a T8 CV is Still Capable of Bombing a T10 Dedicated AA Cruiser.

A T8 DD with Weak AA. Must also be able to at least Inflict some Losses on a T10 CVs Aircraft Squadron.

 

And I am sorry to be Direct here. But I think I will be Forgiven for Finding it rather Hypocritical that CVs keep Demanding that they can Bomb everyone else in the Game while they themselves are largely Immune to any Counterattacks.

And then Seriously come here into the Forum and Declare that No Ship should be Immune to another one in this Game.

Because currently the Ship which is Immune to any Attacks from most or all other Ships in the Game. Is CVs due to their Ability to Attack the Enemy all over the Map without ever being Required to be inside their Range for the Attack.

 

4 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Pls keep your comments about my dear Shima in exactly this tone because i'm sure she's going to break up in tears again if she witnesses more negative facts being spread about her... ☆

However, is the announcement about the Surviveability Expert on planes the only announced buff? If so rip CVs.

 

The Survival Expert Buff was part of the Hotfix. Its not an actual Update.

I am not sure the Announcement for 0.8.6 Changes have been made yet.

If they are out someone might be so nice and share them here.

 

Albeit. No. Even if there was no Buff to CVs at all. CVs are Still Clearly Playable. Some are Harder than others of course. As Enterprise and Midway are still very Overpowered. While the UK CVs for example currently need far more Skills to be Played as they require good Loss Management and Understanding of the Game if you dont want to get Deplaned in the first 10 minutes.

 

5 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

How does it change that they are objectively the weakest planes in terms of HP? And why should you be entitled to strike a dedicated AA cruiser with those?

 

Kagas Squadrons have the Weakest Planes. But also very Large Squads.

As a Matter of Fact. I easily Strike AA Cruisers with Kaga. She is actually rather Reliable in that.

Because the Higher Number of Planes results in more Planes causing Damage to go Poof when an Aircraft with 50hp Dies to a Tick of 800 Damage and the remaining 750 Damage are not counted.

And while Kagas Planes have lower HP per Plane. Their Total Squadron HP is actually Higher than that of other CVs. Thus this effect is even Stronger and making it even easier to Reach AA Cruisers with Airstrikes from Kaga.

(And  well. Kaga doesnt really care if a Squadron is gone afterwards lol)

 

4 minutes ago, thiextar said:

Yes, and we are getting a further two buffs to aa soon. 

 

Reworked sector management and a faster tick rate on high caliber guns for consistency

 

Mind Sharing where you got that from ?

Have they made the 0.8.6 Announcement yet ?

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, Sunleader said:

 

In a Competetive PvP Game. Helpless Defines the Status of One Player not being able to Fight back against another Player.

Thus being forced to run away and/or take the Attacks of that other Player without any effective way to retaliate.

 

The Reason for this Definition. Is down to the Frustration that Players in a PvP Game Feel. When they are Forced to Play the Turkey in a Turkey Shoot.

Nobody wants to be the Turkey in a Turkey Shoot. But that before 0.8.5 this was exactly the case. Because thanks to the AA not Shooting down any Aircraft. Surface Ships could do pretty much nothing against Repeated CV Attacks and thus Felt completely Helpless because they could not even Shoot down some Planes to at least make themselves more Expensive.

Up to Excavatus to define what he meant, not you. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 1 Minute, Sunleader sagte:

CVs are Still Clearly Playable

For people with a brain maybe.

Let's look at the Midway and count the people above the easily achieveable 130k avg damage with more then 200games!

I consider 130k the bare minimum to be called a good CV player.

(btw my personal rating in Midway is rising every day because people are getting worse in it.)

 

 

59 Players Above 200 Games In The Midway reach more then 130k avg damage.

Most of these battles were also played before all the AA buffs took place. I predict this number to fall by half if these players actually continue to play which i doubt will happen.

 

So CV (Midway) is only playable in the hands of around 60 people. That's funny.

[thiextar]

20 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Mind Sharing where you got that from ?

Have they made the 0.8.6 Announcement yet ?

From reddit. Sub_octavian has posted about the sector rework for weeks, but lately hes been hinting on it coming very soon, so i would guess it will come in around a month. Sub octavian made several posts about it during the last few weeks, so ill just link you to his profile and you can scroll through the posts, its not really a one-post kinda thing. https://www.reddit.com/user/Sub_Octavian/ The sector rework was also talked about in the Q&A during the cc summit.

 

The new tickrate system was posted on reddit in great detail, and its coming in 8.6, i couldnt find the exact reddit post right now, but i did find the video talking about it: 

EDIT: i found the original post: 

 

 

[El2aZeR]

10 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Kagas Squadrons have the Weakest Planes. But also very Large Squads.

 

Plane type in question were the RFs, I don't believe Kaga gets a lot of those to pad HP unlike with TBs and DBs?

 

3 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

For people with a brain maybe.

 

I mean, isn't this actually how it is supposed to be?

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 2 Minuten, El2aZeR sagte:

I mean, isn't this actually how it is supposed to be? 

But those without make good customers...☆

[MFour]

23 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

 

Let's look at the Midway and count the people above the easily achieveable 130k avg damage with more then 200games!

I consider 130k the bare minimum to be called a good CV player.

59 Players Above 200 Games In The Midway reach more then 130k avg damage.

So CV (Midway) is only playable in the hands of around 60 people. That's funny.

This has got to be the most nonsensical criterion for anything that I've seen in my entire life O_o

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 5 Minuten, MFour sagte:

This has got to be the most nonsensical criterion for anything that I've seen in my entire life O_o

Oh let's hear yours then!

I bet you would love to talk about that one Midway player sitting on 220k avg with 80 games which probably were all done in 8.01 ☆♡☆

 

[Sunleader]

8 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Plane type in question were the RFs, I don't believe Kaga gets a lot of those to pad HP unlike with TBs and DBs?

 

 

I mean, isn't this actually how it is supposed to be?

 

Nope. She Doesnt. But Kagas RFs also dont get the big HP Nerf.

I ran the Numbers in a post somewhere but cant find it anymore xD

The TBs and DBs actually have a rather Hefty Debuff on HP. Usually being 300-400 HP below other CVs Planes. But in exchange having 3-4 Additional Aircraft.

For Kagas RFs its only around 100-150HP below other CVs Planes. But also does not get any Extra Numbers in the Squad.

 

RFs are however also the weakest part of Kaga. I barely ever use them aside from Scouts and DD Harassment.

 

 

15 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

For people with a brain maybe.

Let's look at the Midway and count the people above the easily achieveable 130k avg damage with more then 200games!

I consider 130k the bare minimum to be called a good CV player.

(btw my personal rating in Midway is rising every day because people are getting worse in it.)

 

 

59 Players Above 200 Games In The Midway reach more then 130k avg damage.

Most of these battles were also played before all the AA buffs took place. I predict this number to fall by half if these players actually continue to play which i doubt will happen.

 

So CV (Midway) is only playable in the hands of around 60 people. That's funny.

 

I have no Trouble with People that have no Brain not being able to Perform well in Ships.

Because dont get me wrong there. But Balance also means that Skill Requirements for Ships are Factored. And normally. A Ship with very low Skill Requirement has very low Maximum Performance in exchange for that.

But CVs have an Extremely High Maximum Performance which is currently Beating any other Ship in the Game. Meaning that they should have the Highest Skill Requirement. And that is currently really not the case.

 

25% of the Players reaching this Threshold of being "Good" CV Players is fairly Normal.

In Facts its more or less Definition of it. Because in other Classes as well. The Threshold for being Considered Good is the 25% of the Players Mark.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Up to Excavatus to define what he meant, not you. 

 

Its a Public Forum :)

So anyone is Allowed to Answer no ? :)

 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 3 Minuten, Sunleader sagte:

25% of the Players reaching this Threshold of being "Good" CV Players is fairly Normal.

There are around 1800 ranked Midway players.

59! of those reach my criteria.

170 or less reach enough for the 130k avg damage emblem.

 

that is way below 25% actually.

[Pikkozoikum]

7 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

There are around 1800 ranked Midway players.

59! of those reach my criteria.

170 or less reach enough for the 130k avg damage emblem.

 

that is way below 25% actually.

Uh, I have 129 727 with my Haku.

Should focus more on max damage farming, I guess

[HaachamaShipping]

7 minutes ago, Sunleader said:

Its a Public Forum :)

So anyone is Allowed to Answer no ? :)

 

Yes, but when I ask Excavatus to explain what he meant with the term "helpless", then there's little point for others to explain, because it defeats the point of the inquiry. If I were to just go off on the first interpretation of the term by someone els, I could as well go by my own interpretation of the term. As however I wanted to be clear what I am responding to, I asked for an elaboration, which however only the person in question themselves can give for it to have any meaningful authority. This isn't some question like "Can Kaga rockets pen T8 BBs?" (please don't answer, this is just an example), where an objective technical response exists that anyone with enough game knowledge can provide. Thus I felt like pointing out that what you are doing by responding to the question is basically waste both our time, as your response just has no value in this specific case.

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 3 Minuten, Pikkozoikum sagte:

Uh, I have 129 727 with my Haku.

Should focus more on max damage farming, I guess

talking Midway because its dot focused therefore easy to get dmg in it.

[MFour]

6 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

Oh let's hear yours then!

I bet you would love to talk about that one Midway player sitting on 220k avg with 80 games which probably were all done in 8.01 ☆♡☆

 

Literally anything else will do a better job. Average damage for various percentiles would be a decent start to see how different skill levels are affected.

Also, find me one non CV ship where more than 100 people satisfy that criterion of yours. If you define 130k average as the limit of playability for CV then aren't you basically saying that CVs need to be ridiculously OP to be playable for most people?

[artic_99]

Vor 4 Minuten, L0V3_and_PE4CE sagte:

talking Midway because its dot focused therefore easy to get dmg in it.

I am better with Haku then midway I. Random. Better with midway in ranked tho. 

[Yosha_AtaIante]

Vor 24 Minuten, MFour sagte:

Literally anything else will do a better job. Average damage for various percentiles would be a decent start to see how different skill levels are affected.

Also, find me one non CV ship where more than 100 people satisfy that criterion of yours. If you define 130k average as the limit of playability for CV then aren't you basically saying that CVs need to be ridiculously OP to be playable for most people?

It's talk about the Midway.

Getting 200k damage in it regularly is not a problem. But it won't always win you games. That's because most of it's damage is based on sticky fires/floods.

It's also why high damage numbers are easy to achieve and 130k really isn't an issue at all and every average player pre AA buff should have been able to get there.

 

I'm saying that yes, in Midways case it needs to be OP for all the players numbers to get to a kind of okay place performance wise which is obviously unhealthy and shouldn't be happening.

What i'm saying is CVs are at the moment unplayable for the average player and to become playable they will be more then OP for the players who reach the numbers i suggested.

 

Overall, it's not balanceable.

[Sunleader]

17 minutes ago, L0V3_and_PE4CE said:

There are around 1800 ranked Midway players.

59! of those reach my criteria.

170 or less reach enough for the 130k avg damage emblem.

 

that is way below 25% actually.

 

First Off your Calculation is Completely Wrong.

Because only 51 Midway Players actually come over 200 Games after the Rework.

So there cant be 59 which Beat 130k Average Damage.

 

And that is also the Problem.

Your Setting an Unreasonable Threshold with 200 Games for a Top Tier Ship which is only around for about 6 Months.

Even the Player with the most Games in Midway has only 800 Games in it. And if I look at his Stats he seems to be a Guy which is Dying his way up and gets alot of Games due to not really making any Effort to actually Play them.

 

 

Or do you think it would be Fair if I did the same ?

Lets take the Kremlin. Because by your Method of Checking it would be totally Unplayable and Underpowered.

Out of 230 Ranked Players for the Kremlin. Only 3 would meet your Criteria :)

If we used the 108k for the Badge we would get to 8 Players :)

 

But thats not really Fair is it ?

The Kremlin only Exists for a Month or so.

Using Absolute Numbers and putting a Minimum Number of Games on it on top of that.

Basicly Means that we are Excluding the vast Majority of Players by Default and dont allow them to be called Good Players simply because they are Hardcore Gamers Spending 20 hours of their Day in the Game Playing Games to reach the Minimum Number of Games Arbitrarily set.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Pikkozoikum said:

Uh, I have 129 727 with my Haku.

Should focus more on max damage farming, I guess

 

No.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Yes, but when I ask Excavatus to explain what he meant with the term "helpless", then there's little point for others to explain, because it defeats the point of the inquiry. If I were to just go off on the first interpretation of the term by someone els, I could as well go by my own interpretation of the term. As however I wanted to be clear what I am responding to, I asked for an elaboration, which however only the person in question themselves can give for it to have any meaningful authority. This isn't some question like "Can Kaga rockets pen T8 BBs?" (please don't answer, this is just an example), where an objective technical response exists that anyone with enough game knowledge can provide. Thus I felt like pointing out that what you are doing by responding to the question is basically waste both our time, as your response just has no value in this specific case.

 

I Disagree.

I am not saying you have to take my Answer as Replacement for his. You are Free to wait for his Answer.

But you make an Inquiry in a Public Forum. This Implies to others that your Question has a meaning to the Argument itself. And while I am not the Person in Question. I do stand on the Side Opposing yours. And thus I am Prompted to Answer Points you make in the Argument.

 

If you wanted to Pose this as a Purely Personal Inquiry without any argumentative meaning to the CV Rework Topic. But merely out of Interest in the other Persons Personal Response or Opinion on the Matter.

And thus, this not leading to any kind of Argument for your Side in this Argument. Then this is a different thing of course.

In that case I Apologize for wasting your Time. As I didnt plan to Interfere with a Personal Conversation between the two of you. (Albeit I would then think it might be better to take it in Private Messages instead of an Discussion Forum)

But you made no Implication that it is this kind of Personal Question. And as Such I have to assume that your Question to him is in fact the attempt to Score a Point in the Argument :)

[Filipin00]

You know what? All this time I was hating WoT because of their same or even worse game mechanics, OP tanks and stuff like that.....

But you know what? AT LEAST WEAK PREMIUM TANKS LIKE IS-6, 112, SUPER PERSHING, JAGDTIGER 8,8 CM AND SUCH HAVE PREFERENTIAL MATCHMAKING!!!!

 

Those tanks were made in the beginning, designed to be in the middle, better than their stock state tech tree counterparts but worse than top state tech tree counterparts.

They had some features that would made them underperforming if put in +2 matchmaker and so they got preferential matchmaking(e.g. IS-6 soviet tier 8 heavy tank gets to see only +1 tier, no tiers 10 because its gun is too weak, even with premium ammo + they got buffed significantly recently, ALL preferentials)

 

I don't see the reason why that wouldn't be made for at least (some) premium ships in WoWS...

Tier 4 CVs don't get to see tiers 6 and they're not even premium, but tech tree regular ones rofl

 

Why make tier 4 CVs have preferential matchmaking, but not tier 6 and 8? I smell here.